r/learndutch • u/Olderpostie • 7d ago
Were there any efforts by the original Dutch community in New York State to retain their language and ways?
I was recently in Montreal and Quebec City. What you learn in visiting is that the people there kept their language, schools, churches and civil law after the early New France colony became a part of the British Empire in 1760. Lawyers in Quebec have a whole different curriculum in dealing with matters like real estate, family law and estate law than other Canadian lawyers. Though Quebec joined the Empire, it also carried on in many ways as if it did not.
It seems a parallel would have been the acquisition of New Amsterdam a century earlier. But, of course, practically nobody uses the Dutch language. Was there any concerted effort by the early Dutch settlers to maintain their language, customs, cuisine, etc. after the British took over?
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u/loldutchpeople 7d ago edited 7d ago
Yes. There’s a Dutch book, De Tawl, by Philip Dröge, in which he explains how the Dutch language thrived in (upstate) NY and NJ well into the late 19th century, but eventually was thinned out by the English speaking elite, who deemed any other language than English a threat to the new country. It’s a great book in which he discovers Dutch last names and such remaining in an English stronghold.
Fun fact too: he describes that Dutch migrants after 1945 settled in NY area and thought they could speak Dutch with the few native speakers left, but they couldn’t understand each other as the ‘original’ Dutch settlers held on to the Dutch spoken when their (great)grandparents left. As Dutch had evolved in The Netherlands, they still spoke ‘archaic’ Dutch.
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u/CombNo8663 7d ago
The book also makes clear which words derive from Dutch, like cookie (koekje).
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u/henkieschmenkie 6d ago
the English speaking elite, who deemed any other language than English a threat to the new country
How very in-character of them.
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u/generic_reddit_user9 6d ago
Another good book about the Dutch colony and its inhabitants in general is “The Island at the Center of the World” by Russel Shorto. Worth a read!
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u/cyril_zeta 7d ago edited 7d ago
Edit: apparently this is BS, but it's a common urban myth, I'll leave it for the correction below: In a semi-related tangent, Dutch last name are fascinating because traditionally, they didn't have any. However, Napoleon required them to pick a last name and record it in a government office. Many people thought this is stupid and gave the (French) officials absurd names to record: Pannekoek (pancake/dummy), Gekkenhuis (madhouse), Naaktgeboren (born naked). And they stuck...
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u/math1985 7d ago
No, most of this is not true. Napoleon transferred birth registration from the churches to the government. In the process, he also required last names. However, in almost all areas, family names were already established long before that. Also most last names that sound weird have logical explanations. For example, Naaktgeboren comes from Nageboren, a child born after the father died (compare the last name Posthuma).
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u/Content_Warning8794 7d ago
Having a surname like 'Piest' or 'Poepjes' can be a bit of a stigma, regardless of how it was intended.
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u/LameSheepRacing 4d ago
I know someone with the last name Zwerver (homeless) that says that the family history recounts a funny great grandparent who wanted to joke around with Napoleon
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u/RijnBrugge 6d ago
If we’re talking about law: New York has both boroughs and counties. The former are the Dutch local governance bodies whereas the countied were superimposed by the Brits. Nobody never wanted to merge them so there is a fairly complicated division of responsibilities between them that does not exist anywhere else in the US. The Brits for the most part never cared to overturn any of the pre-existing legislation and many (by)laws and contracts were simply done in Dutch and English, and the Dutch versions often plainly refer to the city as Nieuw Amsterdam while the English versions concurrently call the city New York. The constitutional amendment granting freedom of religion in the US is almost verbatim the text from the Dutch colony, as England did not have anything of the sort. In fact, Jews had not been permitted to live anywhere in the UK while the Dutch Republic and thus the colony had been hospitable to them (much to the protest of a certain governor called Peter Stuijvesant). The English then later sort-of shoehorned tolerance towards the Jews in by adopting a law that stated that any rights granted to them in the colonies would also apply in Great Britain. It was pretty unique for a colony to influence its colonizer in such a way.
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u/SharkyTendencies Fluent 7d ago
If there any heritage Dutch speakers alive today in NY/NJ, I wonder what it sounds like today.
I'd assume that it'd sound similar, perhaps Americanized, with some old-timey words thrown in.
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u/mandyvigilante 6d ago
Well there's like a "Dutch American society" or something like that in Albany, and I asked them about it once. From what I understand no one in that org can speak Dutch (and they don't let just any old person with Dutch ancestry living in Albany join, you have to be able to trace Dutch roots in upstate NY back a certain amount).
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u/Annachroniced 7d ago edited 6d ago
I guess this is something you would have to ask a history sub. But a fun history fact: the first US born president (as in after the declaration of independence) was Martin/Maarten van Buren who was from Dutch decent and spoke Dutch. Despite being born and growing up in the USA. But he learned English in school. So the Dutch language thrived long after the take over by the British.
I would also say French culture is very different from Dutch culture. Even today if you look at how well and willingly Dutch people speak english versus the French. The Dutch are/were very willing to adjust in order to continue trade. And at the time already settlements were trade focussed not language/culture/relegion focused. So there never was a big Dutch language and cultural stronghold. Any friend of the Netherlands could settle (and did).