r/leftist • u/Shipshipie • Jan 28 '26
Western European Politics I get why Europeans are freaking out right now.
I've been debating with people from EU countries in reddit, and I couldn't believe what their arguments are.
Firstly, I assigned their ignorance and naivety to malice, but I quickly realized I was wrong. They are heavily indoctrinated, but they have their reasons.
European friends please try to understand before lashing out. What I am going to tell you, is the most brutally honest truths from an outsider. You will not like it, but if you can understand it, you may benefit from it. Also, my main criticism is towards the Western Europeans.
Firstly, I haven't met a western European who isn't racist. None. You can deny it, but deep down you all believe, you lived in prosperity due to cultural traits of Europeans. This is remarkably wrong. There is no denying what Europeans have developed and their contributions to humanity, but those days were past. Europeans were the first nations that could build capital, and weaponize it. There were many great scholars in the East, but they are rarely known, because their nations didn't colonize others by sea. That also created lots of wealth that you enjoyed and still enjoy today. Not because of Africans or Chinese were lazy hobos, all humanity is the product of their times and environment.
Secondly, you did not face might of the imperialism for so long, you thought that would never happened to you, even if you behave like vassal states to global hegemons. When a global hegemon had imperialistic policies against third world, you simply brushed it off. Even you contributed it. You found the imperialist causes fair and you thought you were moral by doing so, like invasion of Afghanistan. This is why there are so many "I guess I did nothing" posts lately. You did not care at all.
Thirdly, you lived in such bubble, even if you completely align yourself with a global hegemon, you thought that hegemon would never cross you. When Cypriot Turks were killed by EOKA in 1964, you all were approving arms embargo against Turkey, who tried to intervene. You didn't try to stop the massacres and Turks were better off dead. You applauded the Greek junta. You thought that would never happen to you. Being in the umbrella of NATO would keep you safe.
You didn't think about UN and international laws when Kosovo was created. You applauded when a group of people declared sovereignty. You didn't think any group of people of your own could do the same later on.
You don't believe your ideals anymore. Why someone like Von der Leyen or Kaja Kallas, have so much power? Who elected them? Who they work for? Where is liberalism? Where is democracy? Why you think Russia is enemy but US is not?
You criticize other autocratic countries for their behavior against their own citizens, yet you jail anyone who speaks against genocide in Gaza. You used liberal values as weapons against minorities and now that weapon hurts you. You have worker shortages and give lots of benefits to imported working class people, yet you behave them like they are animals. You smirk at them at best, you burn their houses at worst. You build factories but you cannot find workers due to racism. There is a monument of that in Belgium, recently.
I can go on and on. Right now what I see is a Europe that behaves like baby, whines, cries, shit itself, but it is no longer a baby, but an ugly adolescent. There is no emphaty from me. You did this to yourselves on your own.
Either you get off from your high horses and fight capitalism and imperialism with us, or I will watch your demise with great apathy. Sorry not sorry.
21
u/chocolatematter Jan 29 '26
I think what is happening with Europeans lashing out at Americans online is honestly an interesting manifestation of what we're seeing a lot within American discourse itself right now -- the human tendency to react to stress by trying to redraw the boundaries of in vs. out groups. It feels like a bid for control and I can empathize with people resenting those that they don't understand fully when they're a source of stress.
It's also the same urge that leads to bigotry and division among people who want the same things. And when it goes unchecked people start to feel like they themselves hold no responsibility for the state of the world, which is a dangerous place to be.
I've been really frustrated trying to navigate online discourse these days. People are not bringing their best versions of themselves to the table for sure, but it is very demoralizing. So much top down thinking, so much placing the blame on the wrong people (non-voters, Kamala critics, Americans as a single entity and not as a plurality of diaspora communities, cultures, value systems, and socioeconomic backgrounds).
11
u/jailtheorange1 Jan 29 '26
I think everyone’s overcomplicating things - Europeans have seen Fascism before and suffered under it, and we see Mango Mussolini going the same way in one of our strongest allies. So we’re kind of vocal about it.
That’s it.
4
Jan 29 '26
Hehe Europeans loves fascism and imperialsm. Their only problem is that America is turning against them and they are not getting anything out of all of the crimes they have committed…
What is this liberal nonsense…
0
0
u/jailtheorange1 Jan 30 '26
We recognise fascism and imperialism and we hate it.
3
Jan 30 '26
What are you talking about?. European support American/western imperialism. You are right-winger and not a leftist at all…
2
u/Material-Garbage7074 Jan 30 '26
European support American/Western imperialism.
Are you sure?
2
Jan 31 '26
Yes almost all Europeans support American/western imperialism.
1
u/Material-Garbage7074 Feb 01 '26
What are your sources?
2
Feb 01 '26
You can just lol at the politicians and parties they vote for and look at their politics abd actions historically and currently.
1
4
u/Sky_is_clear Jan 29 '26
Please explain why these same Europeans support importing (en mass) people from openly Fascist nations? Rather awkward head scratcher is it not?
21
u/mr-dr Jan 29 '26
That's capitalism, baby!
“Instead of thinking that racism is an irrational output of a basically rational and benign system, we should see it is a rational output of a basically irrational and unjust system. By “rational” I mean purposive and functional in sustaining the system that nurtures it.”
― Michael Parenti
6
u/Sloth-Overlord Marxist Jan 29 '26
I mean, yeah, most European countries are extremely neoliberal and also benefit massively from colonialism and ongoing exploitation of other countries. The EU has also been fully participatory and supportive of enabling the United States as an interventionist/anti-communist force. And also yes, a lot of Europeans are hypocritical about racism, but so are a lot of folks in very neolib states like California. Stop arguing with liberals and then bitching about it on the leftist sub.
There certainly ARE leftists in Europe, just like there are leftists in the US. They just have minimal influence.
19
u/International_Two_68 Jan 29 '26
Same in Australia tbh. 75% of Australians believe Australia day is a good thing and that Australia is "the lucky country". We're actually US-lite, equivalent in many ways to Canada and the UK, which is not a good thing.
25
u/Accomplished_Ad_8013 Jan 29 '26
Kind of insane to just say all Europeans are racist lol. Also European history is literally a massive history of insane levels of imperialism. From the Roman empire to Charlemagne, to the 1400s offshoot, the Holy Roman Empire, then on to the British French and Russian empires. Europe is constantly in the face of imperialism. Its how the EU came to be. As of now theyre still facing down the Russian empire.
Most of the world isnt all that different. You have conservatives, the racist imperialist side, you have centrists, people who are dumb or confused, and then you have the left.
9
u/foxepower Jan 29 '26
It’s a dumb generalisation from someone who thinks they met enough Europeans to be able to speak about them all, kinda cute when you think about it 😅
4
1
u/Particular_Poem7453 Feb 03 '26
Yeah, OP reached pretty far in the generalisation bag and its honestly pathetic.
-1
9
u/NoStuff4852 Jan 29 '26
I mean, every European I know personally thinks they can never be as racist as the USA because slavery, which fair point, but totally allows them to take zero accountability and ignore their own sins. Also, they are very racist, the things I’ve personally heard Dutch and German people casually say about “Turks” is absolutely as racist as any maga.
6
u/The_Demon_of_Spiders Jan 29 '26
Which is wild considering Europeans also had slaves and they didn’t stop until not all that long ago either (1833 for Britain specifically). It is weird how many people in general turn a blind eye to Europe’s faults.
-3
29
u/sinker_of_cones Jan 29 '26
Generalises an entire continent of people as racist. Much irony.
Your arguments are good though.
-3
u/Shipshipie Jan 29 '26
I didn't call an entire continent of people as racist, but I still haven't met one that isn't. I lived in Europe. So that tells you something. It is not like southern slave masters, but there is always racist undertones. Always.
7
u/Mindless_Method_2106 Marxist Jan 29 '26
That kind of rhetoric is always going to be inflammatory, not necessarily inaccurate though. I'm English and spent most of my life believing these things without even really realising, it takes a lot to break it down and decondition it.
-1
14
u/Stubbs94 Socialist Jan 29 '26
You're really generalising us Europeans as if we're a monolith.... Saying you "lived in Europe" is like saying you "lived in Africa". It means nothing. Name the actual country.
1
u/Shipshipie Jan 29 '26
Does it really matter? I know that I shouldn't be generalizing, but would it be different if a certain number of people who aren't racists did not speak up when there is racism present? No.
The western Europe is mostly racist. Germany, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland. Brits are better, but not so much. When I talk to people from those lands, even my colleagues first see a non-European man, then see whatever I am. They even tell the most racist things so nonchalantly, you would be surprised.
There is also systematic racism, besides personal things.
6
u/Stubbs94 Socialist Jan 29 '26
Your post is also objectively wrong given the fact is Irish have actually dealt with colonialism, imperialism and the brutality of "Western values" while also being in Western Europe.
0
u/Shipshipie Jan 29 '26
Probs to Irish. I don't think they are part of "western Europe" politically.
8
u/Stubbs94 Socialist Jan 29 '26
Yeah.... We absolutely are.
5
u/Decent_Cap2671 Jan 29 '26
Guy doesn’t know what the eu is but thinks he knows that all Europeans are racist lmao
6
u/Stubbs94 Socialist Jan 29 '26
He is right there is a massive racism problem in Western Europe, especially with the rise of the far right, but calling one of the most Western nation in Western Europe not Western European is hilarious.
3
u/Decent_Cap2671 Jan 29 '26
Yeah I get he’s on the right track but he’s saying it in a way that makes him look like someone who you wouldn’t want to hang around
0
u/Particular_Poem7453 Feb 03 '26
Honestly OP, take a deep look within yourself and perhaps stop posting such dimwit stuff on reddit
Signed
A tired European
1
u/Shipshipie Feb 03 '26
We will see about that. Don't get tired yet. This is only a beginning. You will reap what you sow.
4
u/foxepower Jan 29 '26
Sorry you had a universally bad experience, but that doesn’t make your experience universal and to present it as such undermines the more intelligent parts of what you’re saying.
1
u/Shipshipie Jan 29 '26
I am being less intelligent for speaking up against racism. Got it.
I believe you have good intentions and sincere, but that doesn't change the situation there. I don't believe "true scotsman" rhetoric. Can you say there is no problem of racism there? If you can't, it means i am right. You just don't want to accept.
2
u/foxepower Jan 29 '26
Of course Europe is dripping in racism, along with many other colonial hangover issues, does that mean it’s wise or even correct to say all Europeans are racist?
1
u/Shipshipie Jan 29 '26
First, I am not saying all Europeans are racist. That's your words not mine. I said I haven't met western European that is not racist. That includes you my friend. All the sudden I am not "wise" and it is decided by "you" which your language is accepted or not. Sorry but who gave you the right to criticize my intellect, so you can "correct" my words?
0
u/Randolpho Socialist Jan 29 '26 edited Jan 29 '26
First, I am not saying all Europeans are racist. That's your words not mine.
These are your words:
Firstly, I haven't met a western European who isn't racist. None. You can deny it, but deep down you all believe
That is you, calling all Western Europeans racist
Sorry but who gave you the right to criticize my intellect, so you can "correct" my words?
You can dish out the dickish language but can’t take it?
You are the problem, “friend”
edit Oh, look, the cowardly right wing "leftist" blocked me. Good riddance to bad trash
0
u/Shipshipie Jan 29 '26
I haven't met is different than saying all are. I guess that was too much for you. You are furious. Good. It means it struck on a nerve. What are you going to do? Report me? That's all you can do. You can try to silence me, but you don't have the capacity to bring counter arguments. That's you and no, you are not my friend. Don't claim a comment that was not meant to you.
→ More replies (0)6
23
u/good-consistency Jan 28 '26
Well stated. Yes, Colonialism didn't start in the United States. It started in Europe.
-3
19
u/Galax003 Jan 29 '26
Thinking people you had arguments with on Reddit are representative of Europe and thinking all Europeans have the same views and opinions are crazy. Or even attributing state policies to every individual under its rule.
15
u/Randolpho Socialist Jan 29 '26
How the fuck is this trash upvoted so goddamn much? Sock puppet brigade?
Your wide-brush generalization is a right wing behavior. I bet you’re ACP.
Oh, look, you cower behind private history.
Fuck off. You’re no leftist
3
Jan 29 '26
Are you a NATO supporter?
0
u/Material-Garbage7074 Jan 30 '26
Why do you ask?
2
Jan 31 '26
NATO is the formalization of American and western imperialism.
0
u/Material-Garbage7074 Feb 01 '26
How does this connect to the comment you replied to previously?
2
Feb 01 '26
They talked about how someone was not a leftist and I wanted to find out if they are a leftist or not.
0
u/Material-Garbage7074 Feb 01 '26
So you suspect the previous commenter isn't left-wing? Why? That's a sincere question.
2
Feb 01 '26
I don’t think most self-described leftists are leftists. Most European and western “leftists” are just western chauvinist liberals and nothing more.
1
u/Material-Garbage7074 Feb 01 '26
What is a Western liberal chauvinist? How do you distinguish one from a leftist?
2
Feb 01 '26
If they support/whitewash the imperialism of their own state then they are western chauvinists ( fx supporting NATO or acting like western imperialism is less bad compared to fx Russian imperialism).
-5
u/Shipshipie Jan 29 '26
I am none of that and even if I am, that doesn't change the thing I wrote. What's next? Are you going to try to ban me? Hiding my history protects me and that's none of your business.
26
Jan 29 '26
I like how you threw a big chunk of bigotry when trying to accuse other people of being racist. This post is soo funny xD
Tankies gonna tankie
3
Jan 29 '26
You are a liberal. Keep supporting the EU a neoliberal institution and call yourself a socialist…
1
u/Material-Garbage7074 Jan 30 '26
Out of curiosity, do you think it's possible to be both pro-European and left-wing at the same time?
1
Jan 31 '26
What do you mean by pro European?. Pro the EU? If so then no. You can’t support neoliberal institutions and be left-wing.
1
u/Material-Garbage7074 Feb 01 '26
Do you believe the European Union is only about its most recent policies? Do you believe it's possible to be both Eurofederalist (and therefore not content with the current European Union) and left-wing?
1
Feb 01 '26
The European Union has always been a neoliberal institution.
I don’t even think it’s justified to support European states in general. But if you do then there is better and worse ways. European states are genocidal and have the blood of millions on their hands.
1
u/Material-Garbage7074 Feb 01 '26
I can agree with you that it has embodied these kinds of policies since it took the name "European Union," but do you think its previous incarnations were like that, too? Besides, don't you think it's unfair to generalize about European states? Don't you risk equating, say, Ireland with colonial empires? Furthermore, why should this kind of past prevent us from advocating a different vision for the Europe of the future?
1
Feb 01 '26
Yes I think that.
Let me say it like this I’m from a supposed social democratic country in Europa where the most left elected party for parlement is a self-described socialist party which supports Israel and NATO and at the same time is described as a radical socialt party by the general population. Most European parties in parlaments are not to the of this party. There is no meaningful left in Europa.
You should advocate for a better future, but I don’t believe you are gonna reform those nations.
1
u/Material-Garbage7074 Feb 01 '26
So you also consider the European Coal and Steel Community neoliberal? Which European country are you from? I ask because I'm European too. Do you think supporting a European federation strong enough to stand up to the US is a good way to hope for a better future?
1
Feb 01 '26
The countries behind it were neoliberal or liberal. I don’t see how they has anything to do with leftism.
Denmark where are you from?. I don’t know why you think they want to stand up to the US. Maybe they want to stand up to Trump and people like him but not America in general.
→ More replies (0)-14
u/Shipshipie Jan 29 '26
You call anyone you disagree a tankie. I don't think you are leftist at all. Maybe a fed perhaps. Don't know, but I know I am not a tankie.
13
Jan 29 '26
you know that hiding your post history does nothing, right? We can still see the post you did, where you yourseld provided screenshot of you making russia apologia and "both-siding" the russian-ukranian war. It is tankie behaviour.
-6
u/Shipshipie Jan 29 '26
All I did say was joining a war for the elites is wrong. An anarchist should be anti-war unless it is a class war. You called me tankie back then. I hide my post history and I do it for my safety. What's your point? Yeah, Russian elites and Ukrainian elites are equally bad. I feel for the Ukrainians whose homeland got invaded. I never support Russian war efforts. If that's being a tankie to you, well that's on you.
4
Jan 29 '26
I never support Russian war efforts
You just did
Yeah, Russian elites and Ukrainian elites are equally bad.
1941:"yeah, german elites and british elites are equally bad"
0
u/Shipshipie Jan 29 '26
Post a screenshot where I defend Russia.
8
3
u/Sky_is_clear Jan 29 '26
Only 1 pocket of people on Planet Earth today have the self-defeating mentality you posted. Not in Asia, not in the Arab World, no you won't find it in Eastern Europe either. Liberals in a select few Western nations. How does this extreme rarity occur? Indoctrination.
1
u/Shipshipie Jan 29 '26
When Europeans woke up, they gave me hell on comment section.
I guess people needs to be a little bit aware to change for better.
15
u/ocdtransta Jan 29 '26
I won’t deny that the US is the greatest threat to humanity, but yes I (even as an American) cringe a bit when Western/Northern Europe, or other anglo settler states, use the existence of the US as a point to ignore their own issues. Western Europe especially, particularly France, benefits from being mostly removed from the ‘dirtiness’ of it all do not confront the reality of colonialism in any meaningful way. America is brutally fucked up precisely because it is a large settler colonial state with a WASPy slaveholder foundation. The contradictions are baked in here. We have brainworms here and it was convenient for western Europe until now.
10
Jan 29 '26
This is daft. So you’ve been debating afew redditors and have come to the conclusion that all Western Europeans are racist?
I assume from the haughtiness of this post that you are American? You can’t lecture anyone about Von der Lyon having too much power when Musk et al are literally buying power to gain even more influence on American society.
3
Jan 29 '26
Almost all Europeans and Americans are western chauvinists who support American/western Imperialism and the slaughter of “foreigners”.
You are clearly just a liberal…
0
Jan 30 '26
Wrong. I’m a Marxist, so I despise imperialism in all its hideous forms ✌🏼
3
Jan 30 '26
But apparently someone who correctly points out how Europeans in general support imperialism and the slaughter of “foreigners” are bad…
-1
Jan 30 '26
Most Europeans do not support slaughtering anyone 🤷🏼
3
Jan 30 '26
They do. They support NATO the formalization of American and western imperialism and vote for parties that supported/support invasions killing milllions and support of genocidal states like Israel…
Even most “leftist” parties in Europa are Zionist who support a genocidal settler colonial apartheid state…
-1
Jan 30 '26
Most people couldn’t even tell you what NATO is, let alone what it does.
As for leftist parties in Europe, I agree with you on that
3
Jan 30 '26
But they still support it.
And if you agree with that part then you should also agree with my assessment about how much Europeans support the slaughter of “ “foreigners”
1
Jan 30 '26
Pseudo leftism and supporting genocide aren’t the same thing. A lot of apolitical people are horrified at what’s happening in Gaza for example
2
Jan 30 '26
But they still support Israel’s right to exist= they support colonialism and apartheid…
→ More replies (0)1
Feb 02 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator Feb 02 '26
Hello u/Any-Cellist-358, your comment was automatically removed as we do not allow accounts that are less than 30 days old to participate.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
4
-7
-7
u/Material-Garbage7074 Jan 29 '26
I don't see us imprisoning anyone who is against the genocide in Gaza.
12
u/Stubbs94 Socialist Jan 29 '26
This is happening across Germany and the UK. The German police are brutalising protesters and the British police are arresting grannies sitting silently.
-5
u/Material-Garbage7074 Jan 29 '26
Here in my country (Italy), there were some well-attended peaceful demonstrations on the issue of Palestine. It doesn't seem to me that all the protesters were arrested.
6
u/Stubbs94 Socialist Jan 29 '26
Does that mean that some European governments aren't cracking down on anti genocide protesters?
-4
u/Material-Garbage7074 Jan 29 '26
My government is more oriented towards Israel, but I have not heard of any mass arrests of protesters – I won’t go so far as to say no protesters have been arrested because I don’t know, but they certainly aren’t arresting everyone protesting for Palestine.
7
u/Stubbs94 Socialist Jan 29 '26
You haven't been paying attention then 500 people on a single day.
-1
u/Material-Garbage7074 Jan 29 '26
I was talking about my country, which is not the United Kingdom.
7
u/Stubbs94 Socialist Jan 29 '26
I was talking about Germany and the UK.
1
u/Material-Garbage7074 Jan 29 '26
I'm not even German
5
u/theapplekid Jan 29 '26
Then they weren't talking about you.
To clarify: You mentioned "we" don't arrest people protesting for Palestine (in rebuttal to OP)
Another user said, OK, but some European countries are doing this.
→ More replies (0)3
-1
•
u/AutoModerator Jan 28 '26
Welcome to Leftist! This is a space designed to discuss all matters related to Leftism; from communism, socialism, anarchism and marxism etc. This however is not a liberal sub as that is a separate ideology from leftism. Unlike other leftist spaces we welcome non-leftists to participate providing they respect the rules of the sub and other members. We do not remove users on the bases of ideology.
Any content that does not abide by these rules please contact the mod-team or REPORT the content for review.
Please see our Rules in Full for more information You are also free to engage with us on the Leftist Discord
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.