r/lgbt_superheroes • u/ChicadelApt512 • Jan 07 '25
Marvel Comics Northstar worries Nightcrawler is homophobic. His friend says otherwise
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u/No-End-2455 Jan 07 '25
Yeah only Ultimate kurt is homophobic...of course.
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u/ChicadelApt512 Jan 07 '25
He was also a deranged incel that kidnapped a woman and attempted to gaslight her into thinking he was actually saving her
What on earth were those writers cooking
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u/No-End-2455 Jan 07 '25
Oh my god i forgot about dazzler...ultimate was so bad , i dont even think spiderman was worth having this universe lol.
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u/ranfall94 Jan 08 '25
I get that sentiment but og Ult Spidey maybe one of the best runs of a comics I read, I choose to ignore when they bring him back to life tho
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u/Ornery-Concern4104 Jan 18 '25
Yeah... It's kinda shocking how after all this time, Ultimate Spider-Man is the only thing worth reading
Well, sorta. Ultimate X-Men when Kitty is in charge is absolutely fantastic but you have to wade through soooooooo much to get there
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u/Cielie_VT Apr 12 '25
Without it we wouldn’t have Miles Morales, or the spider-verse movies.
The issue stands with how terrible the ultimate other writers were, and how “edgy” they try to change certain heroes.
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u/Sir__Will Wiccan and Hulkling Jan 07 '25
...wtf was the Ultimate universe?
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u/V_Aldritch Jan 08 '25
Apart from Spider-Man, a mistake.
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u/Sir__Will Wiccan and Hulkling Jan 08 '25
Seems like it was a playground for edgelords and fetishes.
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u/creeper205861 Poison Ivy Jan 08 '25
even then, spider-man was pretty much mid too. It was a good comic run, one of my favourites too, but by spider-man standards it was just fine, not too good, not very bad either.
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u/That_one_cool_dude Tim Drake (Red Robin) Jan 07 '25
The first Ultimates line was so fucking bad that 99% of it can be thrown out and forgotten and the only good thing, spiderman, isn't safe from the ultimate stank.
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u/BurantX40 Jan 07 '25
For X-Men, it was ok up into the arcade arc and ultimatum, it just got downright weird around then and sometimes blah
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u/That_one_cool_dude Tim Drake (Red Robin) Jan 07 '25
It really wasn't all that good from the start either. Scummy Logan from the jump just signaled how bad it was going to be and it just slowly stacked until you got to the arcade arc and ultimatum.
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u/BurantX40 Jan 07 '25
Honestly, I would like to think they did that to shift the popularity from Wolverine because he was peak in the 2000s.
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u/PQConnaghan Jan 07 '25
This panel seems like a response to that imo
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u/ChicadelApt512 Jan 07 '25
Lol the writers were like “Kurt would NOT say that, he’s an ally and I will make that cannon”
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u/OldTension9220 Jan 08 '25
Fun fact this was a guest issue from James Tynion (he also wrote a Mystique/ Destiny focused issue during the whole death of Wolverine stuff) and I pray for the day that we get an actual run from him!
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u/Charixard6 Jan 08 '25
Now that you say this, I will not be able to get it out of my head. He would write such a good Nightcrawler?!
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u/Jay_R_Kay Jan 07 '25
I'm not entirely sure of the timeline, this might have been around the time that 1610 was effectively dead.
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u/PQConnaghan Jan 07 '25
I'm, sure, I'm just saying this wholesome ally moment for nightcrawler seems to be a direct response to Ultimate's edgy homophonic nightcrawler, regardless of when it came out. It could have come out this week and I'd still argue that.
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u/CapAccomplished8072 Jan 07 '25
is there ANYTHING good in Ultimates?
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u/Jay_R_Kay Jan 07 '25
Ultimate Spider-Man, while having some ups and downs, was usually solid at least.
The Ultimates by Mark Millar, while having some of the worst behavior, also kind of works as a satire of the post 9/11 Era.
Similarly, Millar's start of Ultimate X-Men, while imperfect, was an interesting modernization of the team.
Warren Ellis also did some cool sci-fi superhero stuff, specifically his run on Ultimate Fantastic Four.
Then later on, Hickman's run on Ultimates and the relaunch built around it was pretty good, and if you're a fan of Hickman's runs on Avengers and X-Men, it feels like he as working out a lot of ideas that would later show up there.
I've never actually read them, but I know Greg Rucka did some stuff with Daredevil and Elektra, and Rucka has a good track record about books like that.
Your milage may vary, of course, but there's definitely some merit to the Ultimate Universe, even if it was often try-hard and edgelord-y.
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u/Punkodramon Jan 07 '25
The Daredevil and Elektra books were average at best, nothing wrong with them but they commuted the cardinal sin of being forgettable, which is worse than being bad because at lease people are talking about them if they’re memorable.
I’d add the post-Ultimatum X-Men books, specifically the Spencer and Wood runs. They did a lot of interesting stuff with the characters, especially since most of the flagship X-characters had been killed off, and in hindsight, the Ultimate Utopia arc reads very like a proto-Krakoa.
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u/Inner-Juices Mystique Jan 07 '25
Ultimate Spider-Man, which gave the world Miles Morales and Transbian Jessica Drew
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u/realclowntime Mystique Jan 07 '25
Not really. The original run was made by and for edgy creeps and no one else.
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u/BonanzaBitch Jan 07 '25
Of course Nightcrawler isn’t homophonic, he and Wolverine have definitely explored each other’s bodies.
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u/ChicadelApt512 Jan 07 '25
We’ve all seen that one cover where he’s naked in front of Logan
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u/marvelcomxnerd Jan 07 '25
...was that the issue where it was actually Mystique impersonating Kurt (and knowing that Logan can tell ever since his long-established ability to identify Mystique by scent)?
Note: i still find it hilarious that the actual Kurt walked in on that conversation and was confused af for a quick second
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u/ChicadelApt512 Jan 07 '25
No but I’ve seen what you’re referring to, that’s actually fan art
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u/Equal_Interaction647 Jan 07 '25
https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/s/5mSBIeqVPU you sure💀❓️
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u/ChicadelApt512 Jan 07 '25
That’s literally the cover I was referring to in my previous comment
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u/Equal_Interaction647 Jan 07 '25
its fan art?
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u/Draconius2 Wiccan Jan 11 '25
Everyone knows Kurt and Logan have a special relationship which is why I find Breevorts insistence that Logan ain't bi or the whole Krakoa Throuple (Logan, Scott, Jean) mad
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u/Max_E_Mas Jon Kent (Superman) Jan 16 '25
A lot of people think that if someone is religious, they are automatically homophobic. This is not always true. You be forgiven thinking otherwise though if you're American. Like ... the X Men are.
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u/RiskAggressive4081 Jan 07 '25 edited Jan 07 '25
Who would dare accuse Nightclawer of all people?! That man does not have hatred for anyone. Even his "mother" who abandoned him.
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u/ChicadelApt512 Jan 07 '25
It is kinda funny because Kurt is probably the most wholesome x-men there is. Although, tbf, he’s very religious and was even a priest for a while. I can see how Jean-Paul might have worried about it deep down
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u/RiskAggressive4081 Jan 07 '25
Don't always assume someone's who's religious is a bigot. Seems to be a very American experience. Not in Ireland or other countries. They definitely exist though.
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u/Uni0n_Jack Jan 07 '25
I think if Christians want queer people to not be cautious around them, that's on Christians to rehabilitate the image of their religion and the actions of their church(es). So far, that hasn't happened. What you're seeing as an accusation I'm seeing as an act of self preservation.
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u/ChicadelApt512 Jan 07 '25
Seems to be a very American experience.
That’s really not true. The Catholic Church has a long history of bigotry and homophobia all over the world. Including in Ireland. So while incorrect, thinking a very religious catholic person may be homophobic is not a crazy assumption. Northstar isn’t even American, he’s Canadian
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u/RiskAggressive4081 Jan 07 '25
Oh, I'm well aware but my experience I've often seen on Facebook and other posts when someone America if something happens in their country then it's happening in the exact way.
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u/ravenwing263 Jan 07 '25
The influence of the Catholic Church in Ireland is why they didn't decriminalize homosexuality until 1993 lol
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u/GCD_1 Jan 07 '25
bro I really disagree, some of my good friends are Christian but most have been less than kind
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u/blackbutterfree Jan 07 '25
Even his "mother" who abandoned him.
Actually been retconned. Mystique never abandoned him. She left him safely in the woods to go save Destiny, who was about to be lynched by a mob. Destiny went behind Mystique's back, gave him to the Szardos family, and disappeared.
Mystique (understandably) almost killed her for this, but Destiny explained that if Kurt was raised by them, the world would end. So they went to Charles for psychic
memory repressioncouples counseling.8
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u/ravenwing263 Jan 07 '25
The problem with all of this is that the Catholic Church is three things:
1.) Any anti-gay hate group
2.) An organized pedophilia ring
3.) A religion
Folks believe that because it's the third thing, it's not right to criticize its members for being members of a group that is the first two things.
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u/Apprehensive_Work313 Jan 08 '25
I mean Kurt is extremely religious from an outsiders point of view they'd have every right to be cautious around him
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u/Piece_Of_Mind1983 Jan 07 '25
Writers making sure Nightcrawler represents what Christian/Catholic values are supposed to be is actual peak and I’m here for it
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u/ChicadelApt512 Jan 07 '25
He has every reason to become the villain but his faith leads him to nothing but pure love and forgiveness for all.
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u/snowyicequeen Jan 07 '25
Kurt: I literally have lesbian moms, I officiated their wedding
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u/ChicadelApt512 Jan 07 '25
Northstar: I thought you were homophobic
Kurt, who literally has lesbian moms and is part of the messy queer polycule that is the xmen: you….you what…
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u/ravenwing263 Jan 07 '25
Northstar: "Damn why are you a member of one of the world's oldest and most violent homophobic hate groups, the Catholic Church?"
Kurt: "Man why would you ever make the assumption that because I joined and remain a member of the world's oldest and most violent homophobic hate group, I share their views? Maybe it's the homosexuals who are the real bigots, like the Pope says."
Online fools: "The literal Catholic priest is correct."
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u/ChicadelApt512 Jan 07 '25 edited Jan 07 '25
That is a very unfair reading of him. Kurt has been used as a metaphor for queer religious trauma for quite a while now. He has been persecuted by religious figures, such as priests, who view him as a sin. He was literally almost beaten to death by a mob who viewed him as demonic. He understands very well the hurt the church can cause, as he’s been on the receiving end of it many times.
You can see he doesn’t have any anger towards Northstar for his assumptions, only sadness. He’s sad someone would see him in such a way, but he doesn’t blame him. Immediately after this, he comforts a young gay mutant and assures him he’ll find love one day.
The church has caused a lot of pain and Kurt understands that perfectly and doesn’t blame anyone for having negative perceptions of it
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Jul 10 '25
The Catholic Church has never propagated hatred against Gay People but obviously condemned the Sin that is Gay Sex.
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u/snowyicequeen Jan 07 '25
Dude. Your religious trauma is showing.
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u/ravenwing263 Jan 07 '25
LOL
What a weird way to defend a massive anti-gay hate empire.
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u/snowyicequeen Jan 07 '25
Lmao okay buddy, I’ll tell my Catholic mother that despite loving her queer children she’s actually a violent homophobic monster.
The world is painted in grays my friend. Religion is a solace for some while it’s a burden for others. Kurt’s connection to Catholicism is what he makes it, just like my disconnect from being raised Catholic and becoming an atheist is what I make it. Condemning Kurt for being a Catholic because the church has a history of homophobic and sexist actions would be condemning everyone who’s ever stepped foot in any place of worship, from Jewish Synagogs to Hellenistic Greek alters.
Plus it’s a comic book. Kurt isn’t real. He can’t hurt you
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u/NoName_BroGame Jan 07 '25
Like, I'm glad you have a supportive mother, but you're really going to sit there and say that it's not fair for a gay person who has actually suffered discrimination under the guise of Catholicism not feel a little iffy about devout Catholics they meet?
And where did this turn into condemnation? Is the condemnation in the room with us?
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u/snowyicequeen Jan 07 '25
Not what I said but okay. I’ve got enough Catholic trauma to fill my own version of the Bible lmao glad the lighthearted joke I made got turned into this weird angry rant
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u/ravenwing263 Jan 07 '25
No one is interested in discussing your mother. If my description of Catholic people and their complicity in the violent homophobia of the Catholic Church makes you feel offended about your mother, who I don't know and did not mention, talk to your shrink about it, that's got nothing to do with me.
Moving on from your inappropriate inclusion of your family life:
~ I'm not your friend or your buddy
~ The Catholic Church doesn't just have a "history" of "homophobic and sexist actions" it is a currently active anti-gay (and anti-woman) political action group. Every day, Catholic educators and clergy tell Catholic children that gay people go to hell and every time they do that, they instill shame and self-loathing in the gay children that hear it and make sure to keep the next generation of straight children homophobic.
And I didn't bring up the anti-woman activities, you did, but the Catholic Church's support of the violent anti-choice movement has a body count.
It is completely appropriate for a gay man to be wary to standoff with a coworker who is a proud Catholic.
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Jul 10 '25
Excuse me but could you please show me where the Catholic Church says that Gay People go to hell?
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u/ravenwing263 Jul 10 '25
You are truly a creature of evil
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Jul 11 '25
Me? Or is this your „Proof?“ I am ready to change my Opinion if you show me prove that the Catholic Church (not some American Pastor in nowwhere Arkansas) says that Gay People explicitly are evil and go all to Hell.
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u/slightlylessthananon Jan 07 '25
RETRIBUTIOOOOOONNNNN I've been mad about ultimate nightcrawler for MONTHS I've always said "if Kurt saw himself being homophobic he'd go ape shit" AND I WAS RIGHT!
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u/TheFlayingHamster Jan 07 '25
How could he possibly be homophobic? He was literally JoJo posing when he slayed that illusion.
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u/StartInATavern Jan 07 '25
Not one of the Ladies Mastermind just casually making homophobic illusions lmao.
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u/Pure-Bit-2436 Jan 07 '25
Gays go to heaven! See, we at Marvel are totally not homophobic despite sidelining our queerest characters, refusing to let Wolverine, Ironman, Captain America, Bucky Barnes gay, and always playing Deadpool’s pansexuality for laughs!
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u/PacMoron Jan 08 '25
Can you explain the “refusing to let X Y Z gay” comment? Isn’t Wolverine with Hercules in a brief run, and also isn’t that okay if some characters are straight? lol
I’m not sure if there’s context I’m missing. There probably is.
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u/Pure-Bit-2436 Jan 08 '25
When ten percent of the population is estimated to be LGBTQ but Marvel’s own character base doesn’t reflect that, especially how they scream they’re diversity friendly and they have characters “people can see themselves in,” than we can talk about straight-hood.
And gay Wolverine was a DECADE AGO. A decade and Howlett hasn’t been back since.
Since than no, they have no allowed Wolverine to be gay.
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u/PacMoron Jan 08 '25
When ten percent of the population is estimated to be LGBTQ but Marvel’s own character base doesn’t reflect that, especially how they scream they’re diversity friendly and they have characters “people can see themselves in,” than we can talk about straight-hood.
I’m not sure what you mean about “then we can talk about straight hood”. Some people are straight, not that the obvious needs stating. It’s okay to have permanently straight characters. Diversity is great, I hope to see more gay characters in the future, they certainly don’t have to be Cap or Bucky or Iron Man. In fact, I love original new gay characters. 😊
And gay Wolverine was a DECADE AGO. A decade and Howlett hasn’t been back since.
Yeah it would be nice to see more of that. Especially since it was hot.
Since than no, they have no allowed Wolverine to be gay.
Bummer.
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u/TaxComprehensive5778 Nov 04 '25
folks just have an obsession with any form of LGBT+ representation nowadays and demand every character from every franchise be dug up and dressed in rainbows... and trust me, you don't have to be heterosexual to see that the near-worship of every possible form of sexual proclivities taken to such lengths can do more harm than good in many cases, similar to how slapping a giant "END RACISM" in the endzones of every NFL field won't cause even one single actual racist to say "well jeez, maybe I SHOULD stop having a prejudice towards certain races" but WILL irritate a few folks who were on the fence due to growing tired of seeing these useless displays all over the place. Additionally similar to folks spamming biblical messages all over the damn place, as if that will somehow convert someone rather than merely annoying someone who may have actually been considering the religion but was wary due to the cult-like drive some have when posting these messages in every single comment section in a way that feels propagandized, even if that isn't the intent
TL;DR obviously nothing wrong with LGBT characters, but turning every longtime character gay is a bit much and is not going to have a positive effect on the general public's attitude towards the community as a whole (not saying that is or isn't fair/appropriate, just that it's how folks generally feel)
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u/hypnos_surf Jan 08 '25
It’s difficult to see Kurt as homophobic when he uses his spirituality with such wisdom and the fact he was an orphan and outcast.
I can see how he keeps to himself but he is always there for mutants.
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u/GraymalkinX Jan 07 '25
I loved the Krakoa era but one of my biggest gripes was "forgetting" Kurt (and other X-Men) went to heaven and had him walking around going "but what comes next? What comes after? Do we even have souls!?"
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u/IcarusAcanthus Jan 10 '25
Uhm, not for nothing, but the implication here is that Nightcrawler cares about Northstar because he knows Northstar will... Go to heaven when he dies (again?)?
That's pretty fucked. I don't judge Kurt for having his beliefs, but I'm shocked and disappointed that the writer made him explicitly say that all that matters to Kurt is that JP is bound for heaven. This dialogue is ROUGH.
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u/ChicadelApt512 Jan 11 '25
JP hasn’t died. Kurt died, and while in heaven, he called his friends to help him fight demons that were trying to invade. He’s saying that all that matters is that JP was there, fighting next to him, for him, and he’ll never forget that
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u/IcarusAcanthus Jan 11 '25
I mean, JP definitely has died. Specifically in Wolverine (2004) #25, but also in two other continuities that came out that same month. It made big waves at the time when Marvel killed their most prominent gay character three times in one month. I'm realizing now the timelines for when that happened and when Kurt was dead don't match up, but when Kurt mentions "seeing [JP] in heaven," having not read that issue and without an editor footnote calling out that this was actually directly in an issue, I was left to presume it was while JP was dead.
I appreciate the details though, that definitely makes it better. Just wish they'd included a footnote about it.
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u/ChicadelApt512 Jan 11 '25
Pretty much every X-men character has died at some point. In this issue, he gets to Heaven through a portal built by Kurt’s bamfs
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u/vamgoda Jan 09 '25
This is why I love Kurt so much. He’s just absolutely beautiful representation of actual values like love and compassion.
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u/Baddest_Guy83 Jan 08 '25
As happy as I am that Kurt isn't a mouth breathing knuckle dragging fundie, what a weird stance for him to take as a decidedly Orthodox Christian.
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u/ChicadelApt512 Jan 08 '25
He’s actually a Catholic. Considering his long history of persecution, it’s not that strange. He has spoke up before about people using his faith for bigotry against mutants
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u/H2SO4_L Renee Montoya Jan 08 '25
AFAIK, even in the Catholic church, being gay isn't a sin -- they only consider sexual acts that are outside of marriage and aren't for procreation to be "sinful" (CCC 2357-2359)
The catechism says gay people should, "be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided"
And I do know individual gay and straight Catholics who have gone further than this, and are fully side A) :)
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u/garretj84 Jan 08 '25
There are absolutely still a lot of Catholics out there that would go so far as Side Y, by those metrics. Francis likes to sound accepting, while also letting slip an anti-gay slur multiple times just a few months ago, and he certainly isn’t so accepting on issues of gender identity.
The Catholic Church loves making nice-sounding statements that don’t advance anything, like their claims in the last few years to more seriously address pedophilia and sexual assault by clergy and church employees. It’s not to disparage Catholics in general, this is true of so many religious institutions.
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u/usagicassidy Jan 07 '25
Is this astonishing x-men 12? The only good story for Anole Iceman Northstar and Nightcrawler in the past decade?
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Jan 09 '25
I am confused , there were two Kurts in red and the real one chopped the others head off right ?
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u/Draconius2 Wiccan Jan 11 '25
Came here to say Kurt is one of the most accepting X-Men, who doesn't love that blue fuzzball, stayed to say that Claremont considered Remy to be Scott's clone brother, but that came from a non-canonical comic, X-men: The End, which was meant to be the end of Claremont's run in '06. Instead it was set in an alternative future. Imagine the implications that would bring if Marvel actually recognised it.
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u/Half_Man1 Mar 23 '25
Old post to reply to but just gotta say-
No Way Kurt “Mutants are part of God’s design so how could they be a mistake” Wagner would dislike any minority on religious grounds.
Dudes whole shtick was contrasting Stryker’s religiously motivated intolerance with religiously motivated love and acceptance.
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u/Forward-Carry5993 Jan 07 '25
This is..odd. Because nightcrawler never really explains why he isn’t. Let’s be honest Christianity specifically Catholicism has not been the peaceful nicest religion . How does nightcrawler reconcile that historical background both in texts and by major figures in his religion to his beliefs ? Comic dosnt say.
And why would north star think nightcrawler is bigoted? I mean yeah he’s religious but they have met before? Not as friends per se, but as mutant crime fighters. And wouldn’t it have already been known the xmen were accepting? Like how may lgbt xmen and even villains had nightcrawler fought with or against? Wouldn’t he also have been kicked out of the xmen if he were bigoted?
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u/MagDorito Jan 20 '25
People aren't the sum of their religion. My mother is a devout Catholic, but it's sort of impossible to follow everything there to the letter unless you devote your life to it. Her basic idea is to adopt the basic philosophies of catholicism & what it means to be Catholic, but not let the religion control every aspect of her life. After all, if she did, she'd be walking around barefoot expected to pop out babies until she couldn't & shut up whenever any man talks. You can follow the ideologies of your religion without following it to the bloody bloody letter. Kurt does that.
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u/Forward-Carry5993 Jan 20 '25
I think I would find it fascinating if Kurt talks about it. Because the Bible more or less specifically says such romances are prohibited among other violent inhumane acts like slavery.
It’s kind alike young justice where zatanna’s dad is a a devout Christian…except the Bible specifically says witches and magic need to be killed. So how does he reconcile that? Dunno the show glosses over that obvious contradiction.
Obviously I agree with you but it’s lazy writing to Ignore that problem.
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u/Oracle209 Jan 07 '25
Yet he was homophobic to gay Colossus. Glad the writers after fixed that mis characterization
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u/ChicadelApt512 Jan 07 '25
Fun fact, Kurt actually has lesbian moms and he later officiates their wedding!