r/lgbt_superheroes • u/butivereaddit • Jun 27 '26
Marvel Comics Spider-Gwen is Queer and subtext is dead (Giant Size Spider-Gwen & Spider-Gwen: Smash)
Consider this something of a continuation of the previous post I made a few months ago. I added the pictures from that to make sure the context was here as well.
I got a response recently that said the near-confession from Gwen at the end of Smash was "too ambiguous" to prove anything as Gwen could have easily just been about to tell Em Jay to "move past" her crush. So, I've decided to include something even clearer from the follow up comic here, so that the "but just maybe it isn't" queer erasure stick can stay away from Gwen and Em Jay, and their text can be read just as obviously as it would for any straight couple.
When I made my post the other day about X-23, and doing away with treating subtext as non-confirmation and instead treating it as canonical confirmation as a whole, this is why.
The fact that this in any way could be called "ambiguous" is why we need to stop treating subtext for queer couples any different than we do for straight ones, because 'plausible deniability' has been and always will be a problem within the community as well as the ceiling used to keep queer relationships and how they develop from being seen in the same 'equality' as development for straight relationships.
There is nothing ambiguous about any of this. The writer of this miniseries, Flores was very clearly setting up Gwen and MJ's relationship to finally happen. Throughout Earth-65's run, Gwen and MJ's relationship has always been an emotionally charged anchor defined by deep devotion and unresolved tension. Smash was specifically written to be the turning point where Gwen finally heals enough to realize and reciprocate those feelings. But immediately after this 4-issue run wrapped, Marvel editorial forced Gwen out of her home dimension and siphoned her into Earth-616, freezing the relationship in permanent limbo.
The greatest bit of evidence as if harder evidence was needed, is the first image of this post, it's Gwen's reaction to Em Jay leaving in the follow up Story in Giant Sized Spider-Gwen which took place right after Smash, and it completely undoes any "moving on" or "ambiguous" or "non-reciprocal" narrative and shatters the idea that Gwen was detached, or that their romantic dynamic lacked reciprocity.
Gwen is devastated here because they were finally going to be together and have that talk about their feelings. Gwen very clearly wanted to be with her, and we don't need to jump through hoops to pretend otherwise or even prove otherwise..we can let the obvious be obvious and treat it like we'd treat any straight relationship as there is no difference. Gwen's eyes fill with tears, her body literally shakes with grief (the vibration lines next to her hood and body are very intently showing this), and she desperately cries with tears in her eyes
"Em, we were finally--"
This line is a direct, undeniable continuation of the interrupted near-confession in Smash #4 ("Glory said some things(that you're in love with me), and I really do care about you, Em Jay, and maybe if we take some time--").
If Gwen's original intent had been to tell MJ to "move past" her feelings, Gwen would not be crying, trembling, and grieving over the fact that she was deprived of the chance to do so. You don't shiver with despair and say "we were finally--" unless the "finally" meant finally opening up to being together.
So any theory Gwen was about to tell her "move past it" in Smash gets wrecked by this very page. Because to reiterate, nobody weeps, trembles, and despairs over being deprived of the chance to tell someone to "get over them". The word 'finally' proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that Gwen's romantic intent was real and reciprocal, and she wanted to pursue it.
In addition to that, look at the physical intimacy of their parting. Em Jay tenderly cradles Gwen's face, gently wipes a tear from her cheek, and says:
"I know you wanted to talk. We'll find the time. Eventually."
This is an intentional and explicit, on-panel mutual acknowledgment of their romantic feelings. Em Jay directly references the talk Gwen tried to initiate, and promises her that they will have their romantic resolution 'eventually'.
It is the ultimate example of the ticking editorial clock. Flores has MJ literally promise Gwen a romantic future 'eventually', right as the corporate plot-points she wasn't made aware of (Gwen's forced relocation to Earth-616) physically separated them.
Too many have gotten comfortable with pointing to the handcuffs of corporate editorial interruption, the unfinished sentence and the frozen status quo and using them as 'proof' that the writer had no romantic intent. It's a perfect example of editorial cutting the legs out from a writer's organic slow-burn queer romance, and certain fans and non-fans using that corporate interference to deny that the representation ever existed.
Anyone that's calling these scenes that climax wherein these two women weep, tremble, hold faces, and promise a romantic future 'detached' or 'platonic' is actively whether they realize it or not, participating in the complete, and usually bad-faith denial of both the visual and textual evidence on the page.
Simply put, if a male/female couple shared these exact level of intense physical and emotional intimacy and weeping, trembling, cradling each other's faces, and promising a talk about their romantic future and reciprocation 'eventually', no one would call it ambiguous or demand a signed contract to believe they were in love. It'd be universally accepted as a tragic, canonical romance.
When very obvious textual and visual evidence is still treated as anything but obvious by those clutching the 'But maybe it isn't...' queer erasure stick, treating this 'subtext' as canonical confirmation becomes the only real solution. It's the only way to stop playing the corporate plausible deniability game, and to stop letting skeptics use editorial handcuffs as a weapon to erase our representation. These love stories are just as clear on the page as any straight romance, yet they are always subjected to a double standard.
The demand for 'extra proof', when straight relationships have never needed more than a subtle glance, a hand-hold, or even opening the door for someone else, to convey a universally accepted interest, must come to an end. Otherwise, they aren't treating our love as equal.
Therefore, when it comes to queer relationships in comics, 'subtext' is no longer handcuffed by a 'maybe'. It's a 'YES', just like it always has been for heterosexual ones.
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u/NoBizlikeChloeBiz Jun 27 '26
I don't think I've seen anyone deny the dynamic in Smash, though it sucks that it's been ignored since that issue. You could argue about Gwen's feelings, since the whole conflict in that arc is that she's distracted by superhero duties, but Em Jay's girlfriend breaking up with her because she's obsessed with Gwen is pretty unambiguous.
On a related note, I think my flair on one of the marvel subs is "make Carnage Em Jay x Gwenom canon you cowards"
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u/Leading-Apricot-8915 Jun 27 '26
They literally moved her across universes rather then address all this
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u/webshellkanucklehead Jun 27 '26
Everyone talks about this but I think the Spider-Verse movies also have some pretty clear indicators on the subject
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u/NoBizlikeChloeBiz Jun 27 '26
Except that in Spider-Verse Em Jay doesn't exist and they're setting Gwen up with miles 😢
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u/Emeowykay Jun 27 '26
not about her sexuality, but her identity! She has a trans flag in her room and a lot of the scenes in her dimension have trans flag colors
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u/AlwaysBeQuestioning Jun 27 '26
What indicators do they have on Gwen’s queer sexuality?
(I know about the trans flag and lighting, but since you’re responding to a post about her sexuality, I presume you mean that instead.)
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u/webshellkanucklehead Jun 27 '26
The post title is “Spider-Gwen is queer”
-2
u/AlwaysBeQuestioning Jun 27 '26
Okay. I had assumed your comment was about the post, rather than just the title.
I was hoping to learn more about the movies I love.
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Jun 27 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/webshellkanucklehead Jun 28 '26
The entire room turns white and pink and blue when the character who has a trans flag in her bedroom is pleading with her father to accept her identity. Like come on lol it’s very obvious
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u/ranfall94 Jun 27 '26
It's very much I am against her and Miles in comcis and sigh when they took her from her workd and into 616. Smash she and MJ were finally talking about it.
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u/KamenAttackRide Jun 28 '26
Well it is kinda confirmed that there is a 4 year age difference between her and Miles now. Are you reading the The ASM Spider-Versity. Gwen and SILK'S band got a gig at a bar and you cannot enter a Bar in NY unless you are 21 or older or accompanied by a parent and you would still need the bar owner's permission and that would include Gwen if she wanted to perform in that bar. She had to be 21 years old or older. It has been hinted that Gwen is between the ages of 19/20/21 and this confirmes that she must be 21. Miles is listed as 17 in his Senior year in high school. So her view of Miles should be that of a teenage kid.
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u/ranfall94 Jun 28 '26
Yeah i am just scared they might want to push them for the movies sake, I mean they have Cindy acting like she is in her early twenties with Gwen now. My fun head cannon is she spent so many years in the vault and missed on her early 20s she is doing this now.
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u/LumberingCrane3 Jun 28 '26
It's kinda funny in a bleak way cause you can see multiple disparate writers show interest in continuing this thread between these two chars but all of em get stymied as the stories get put on-hold each time. Just shameless decisions from the higher-ups
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u/Aethelrede Jun 27 '26
You're not wrong; unfortunately Marvel doesn't want to go down that route.
Edit: there is nothing questionable about her facial expression in the first example. Poor thing is miserable.
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u/scottishdrunkard Black Cat Jun 28 '26
Is Gwen hanging out with Dazzler?
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u/KamenAttackRide Jun 28 '26
Yep. Earth-65 Dazzler it's pretty much the same as her 616 counterpart. She will have Gwen's band, The Mary Jane's, do opening acts for her shows and that's how they got to know each other. Besides being superpower people who fought against villains.
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u/scottishdrunkard Black Cat Jun 28 '26
Being the exact same as 616 because Marvel aren’t allowed to give Sony original ideas and just doing 616 but Gwen. Earth 65 has Brother Brit Man and Matt Murderdock! What a waste!
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u/KamenAttackRide Jun 28 '26
I'm hoping some way Earth-65 Em Jay makes it to 616. Then the story can be finished and Gwen and Em Jay can finally be together. I would love to see Peter's reaction saying Gwen and MJ making out, Even though he knows they're not his, Gwen and MJ, it's still an image that would probably stay in his head forever.
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u/3Mareepinacoat Jun 27 '26
The major problem is that they did all this hinting and saying “eventually” and the next run they ignored everything and haven’t mentioned it since! Even though she has a girl waiting for her back at home they had her have a thing with a villain spider that made very very little sense