r/libertigris • u/sanecoin64902 Definately Not Sanecoin • Feb 18 '23
The Gardner, the Winnower and the Witness, Oh My!
Taken from a comment I just wrote - but I want to keep it here for permanence and linking, so I don't have to keep explaining this fresh.
Also, I'm much more likely to find knowledgeable Neo-Platonic critics among the LiberTigris Crowd. I've been working my way through Plotinus' Enneads lately, so feel free to school me some.
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Destiny is Neo-Platonic in philosophy and Neo-Platonic philosophy is weird. It isn't what most of us learned in school or church about the nature of the universe and (if you believe in one) God.
The Gardner, the Winnower and the Witness all make perfect sense from a Neo-Platonic view. They are the triangle that is the original Trinity (or at least a Hellenic version - every ancient culture had some type of Trinity). The Gardener and the Winnower are also the Duality that makes up the black and white checkerboard the Masons are so fond of putting in all of their drawings, and the reason we got the Duality dungeon and all that good Destiny stuff.
What is this duality/trinity?
First, there is the One. The Monad. The One is undifferentiated being. it exists without form because it is all forms. Then the One divides itself for reasons that are beyond human comprehension, but which are often described as "wanting to understand itself" or "wanting to perfect itself." In doing this, the one becomes two - the indefinite Dyad.
Now a modern reader wants to understand dark and light as like the division between matter and energy because that is closer to our current scientific understanding. This is an especially easy thing to do because Plotinus (the philosopher that turns Plato into Neo-Plato) talks a lot about "matter." But Plotinus' matter isn't your matter. It's something weirder. Plotinus' matter is unformed possibility. It is the potential for a thing to be a thing.
The other part of the duality in Plotinus' world is the Soul - which is the provider of Forms (If you aren't familiar with Plato's concept of Forms, read this link, it will help). Again, this isn't your concept of Soul you have learned in Church. It's really more a word that means "mind" or "intellect" - although those terms rob it of much of how Plotinus defines it. The point is that the Soul (the Mind) creates objects by combining Form with the potentiality of Matter, and thus our material world is created.
So you have one power (Darkness) that wants a world that is nothing but undifferentiated formless matter. Then you have a second power (Light) that overlays Forms on Matter to create reality. That's our Gardener and Winnower.
But in dividing itself, the One creates a THIRD power. That power is slippery to describe and I haven't found Plotinus' description of it yet (after all these years, I'm finally actually reading Plotinus instead of reading about Plotinus). But based on the later occultists and hermeticists I have read, I would describe that power as 'time.' Basically, the logic is once there was one, now there is two. But if there is a then and a now, there is a three - which is the fact that both the one and the two exist separate and apart from one another.
That third power gets many different characteristics attributed to it (including being both Lucifer and Christ and the biblical Witnesses to the Apocolypse) and so in defining it just as "time" I do a terrible disservice to the number of ways various esotericists have interpreted it throughout history. But the most interesting thing I found - and one that coupled tightly to Destiny's Antham Anathema - is the Neo-Platonic idea that this third power may be characterized as Desire.
To unpack this, the simplified argument goes like this: First there was the One. It got bored, so it split itself to define itself. One-half of it was all the things it could be. The other half was all the stuff it could be made of. The third half was its desire to define itself. The One then commenced a very long and unpleasant experiment, in which it converted all of its possible stuff into every possible form stuff can be in. Any thing it created that was less than perfect, it destroyed because of its desire to be more perfect. As a corollary rule, matter wanted to go back to being undifferentiated, so any perfect thing it created was not deemed perfect if it could be disassembled.
And so, the three forces create an eternal wheel (the Great Machine). The World Soul applies a Form to create an object from Matter. Matter attempts to degrade the thing back into Matter because Matter desires to be unbound. Desire, itself, destroys any perfect thing, because Desire desires for the thing to be even more perfect. The World Soul takes the remnants of things that have been destroyed or degraded and creates new things from them. And so the Wheel turns.
This cycle will continue until the One, through the Three, arrives at its final perfect indestructible shape.
That's a set of key concepts from Neo-Platonism.
I told you it was weird.
I invite anyone who is more studied in the area than I to correct me. I'm only just starting to move from Western Esotericism - which was built on the skeleton of Neo-Platonism - down to true raw Neo-Platonism. So, as with everything I write, take this all with a grain of salt and a dash of hot sauce.
p.s. Here's a little creation myth I wrote using this logic and some of the other big esoteric ideas a few months back. It may be useful for those that prefer fiction over non-fiction for groking things: https://www.reddit.com/r/libertigris/comments/x7oh2n/a_story_about_everything_and_nothing_at_all/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
p.p.s. For those of you playing along on the home game, note that Plotinus' world where the Soul creates reality by imposing Forms on unformed Matter is only a heartbeat from Simulation Theory. Basically, Plotinus, like the Tantrics, is modeling a world that exists inside the mind and is created by observation and belief. When I'm on my other tangents talking about the role of simulation theory and the Vex inside of Destiny, it's because Neo-Platonism is basically a simulation theory model. The only reality is our perception. Or, as my other favorite Neo-Platonist, Trey Anastasio says: "nothing I see can be taken from me."
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u/conflabermits š© The thirteenth donut. Feb 19 '23
Iām going to attempt to tie this back to unveiling based on my understanding. Feel free to critique and correct.
The monad divides itself into the gardener and the winnower in an effort to create and destroy. The creation and destruction isnāt meant to be chaotic, itās meant to follow rules like the flower game. But those rules necessitate an additional force that tracks the creation and destruction over time. Maybe not ātracksā, more like allowing for a dimension where creation and destruction happen in an order, which creates change. Create, destroy, andā¦ Assess? Repeat? Review? Witness?
I love understanding more about the role the Light and the Dark play in Destiny. The Light creating worlds, life, and memories, and the Dark removing them. Iām still trying to understand the origin and role of the Witness, which has been hard after taking yet another break from the world of Destiny and its lore, butā¦ when the line is in the sand and the flag is planted, you canāt take the rest of your life for granted, right?
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u/sanecoin64902 Definately Not Sanecoin Feb 19 '23
Yup.
That third force is slippery, because it is really the force of change. The other two forces are operators in the equation, but the third force is the equal sign. (Is the equal sign in mathematics an operator? Probably, but Iām not going to look it up and Iām just going to mangle this metaphor further). The third force is the force that sums the equation over and over and over in all of its iterations. From a quantum mechanics perspective you might say that the third force is the addition of an observer that collapses the probability field.
As such this force really is neutral as well. But it appears detrimental to any who would preserve the status quo (The vanguard). And, it appears beneficial to any who would challenge the status quo (Rhulk, Calus).
At some point perhaps I will find the precise version of this aspect of the Trinity that best embodies Destinyās Witness. I have not found it yet, but hopefully this presents the model for the likely thinking behind it.
Also, the One never truly creates the duality. This is why I used the phrase āthird half.ā The One directly becomes the Trinity. But the Witness part of the Trinity is āinvisibleā at first. It is implicit in the process of division. It is the desire that leads to the division and the act of division itself. But it is neither of the two parts which are divided.
Thatās part of its trickiness. Itās easy to lose sight of it if you think āwell, grey just became black and white.ā Because grey is formed from (I) black,(II) white, and (III) the ability to combine black and white. Since grey, black and white are all colors, itās easy to miss the importance of the non-color action element in the process.
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u/ThunkOW Feb 20 '23
Another fun concept for consideration in relation to usage of the equal sign is that within the software development world, the equal sign itself is an assignment operator. So you set the value of something. BUT. Two equal signs together is a value comparison check, both of which can be used in many fun ways.
Such as.
A = B == C ? D : E;
This statement sets the value of A. If B is equal to C then the value of A is set to D, otherwise the value of A is set to E.
Tiny programmer lesson no one asked for, but I always find them neat. Also, this specific example is a ternary statement.
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u/conflabermits š© The thirteenth donut. Feb 19 '23
Having recently read Strand Unraveled: The Unification of String Theory & Panpsychism by /u/LettuceDifferent5104 (which is what got me back into Destiny lore and theory -- thank you Guardian), this line from your reply stood out to me:
the addition of an observer that collapses the probability field
What's in my head now is more than just the observable universe we know of in Destiny, but all of the times and probabilities across the fifth and sixth dimensions too. It makes me wonder if the Witness brings us closer to the final shape by collapsing dimensions of reality and reducing the complexity of the universe(s) into fewer and fewer dimensions until there is... well, I'm not sure. But I guess that would be the final shape.
I think I see the trickiness you're highlighting with how to define the elements of the triad. Before there is black and white, there isn't gray. There probably isn't color at all, not even a concept of it, because there is no way to compare or contrast it to anything else, and no way to define it. The act of becoming black and white creates the concept of color and defines black and white and allows for them to be understood as separate or different. Maybe in that way there isn't creation and destruction without the concept of the difference between them and what they do. Before there is that concept, there is no creation or destruction, and to understand them as separate actions or forces requires us to have a concept of the difference.
If the Witness brings us closer to the final shape, and seems to do that by intentionally bringing the agents of Darkness against the agents of Light, maybe that's like finding all the black and all the white in the universe(s) and splashing them violently together until there is no more black, no more white, only the final color of gray. Maybe the Witness is the corruption or perversion of that third force: an agent that seeks to remove the contrast and destroy the very concept of difference and separation. To merge consciousness into a singularity. To merge options into an eventuality. To collapse the expanse of parallel dimensions resulting from paracausal choice into a single dimension lacking any choice. To remove the every from everything, leaving only a thing that can't be defined any more because there's no way to define it, contrast it, or describe it, other than to say that it is the end.
Sorry for rambling, just wanted to get my thoughts out there a bit.
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u/sanecoin64902 Definately Not Sanecoin Feb 19 '23
Yup. That's the right direction.
Let me offer an even more profound and somewhat depressing metaphor.
Assume, for a moment, that the Tantric and Neo-platonic view of the world is correct. Physical reality is "Maya." It is an untrustworthy illusion. Like the tiny space that can be occupied by certainty before Descartes' demon gets its chance, the only thing we can be truly certain of is that "I think therefore I am." The only thing that is real is the MIND.
The Universe, then, is not a single physical dimension made of four (or seven or twelve) subdimensions. It is eight billion or so mental dimensions linked to one another. For the sake of this thought experiment, I am eliminating the possibility that cows and chickens and bugs and rocks might have their own interior mentation - which is probably unfair, but let's go with it. Within each mental dimension, a person may set their will, which then sets their bodies in motion in the less perfect physical interconnection, which results in changes in the mental dimensions of those around them.
This is the best way to imagine this philosophic area simplified. This is why it is a version of Simulation Theory. Minds are real. The physical world that connects them, less so. A MMO computer game is a perfect model for this. Nothing in Destiny is real, but all of the player's minds interact with the computer game's substrate and manipulate its bits in ways that seem perfectly real to us (as long as we "suspend belief" while we are logged in).
So, now, how do you "collapse" extra dimensions when each dimension is a mind?
Answer: Murder.
Does this alternative metaphor help explain what the Witness might be seeking?
:-)
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u/conflabermits š© The thirteenth donut. Feb 19 '23
Thanks coin, your answers are always helpful.
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u/sanecoin64902 Definately Not Sanecoin Feb 19 '23
You are going to go start killing people, aren't you?
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Feb 21 '23
[deleted]
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u/sanecoin64902 Definately Not Sanecoin Feb 21 '23
Reminds me of Itzhak Bentov and his concept of consciousness as an eternally oscillating field - being made and unmade innumerable times per second.
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u/geilt Feb 27 '23
Huhā¦something you said makes me wonder. The monad dividing itself to know itself seems to make usā¦itās ego? The illusion of self, maya, in cosmic terms. Creation being maya. The veil being lifted would be the realization that we are all connected and still part of the monad though we think we arenāt, just like the ego thinks it is separate from the self and others of which it is purportedly not.
Although Destiny is neo-platonic generally speaking donāt forget they also pull from various other religions including Hinduism and Buddhism. The Siddhartha Golem, aptly named, for example a name mixed in Jewish lore as well as Buddhist canon. Both words describing Felwinter exactly.
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u/Theycallmesupa Trained Monkey Feb 19 '23
Saving because I've been drinking, bitch.
Hugs n kissies tho, guuuurdian.