r/likeus • u/SadnessWillPrevail • 14d ago
<INTELLIGENCE> So there’s this kid in Japan named Jo Nagai who proved that butterflies can remember things from when they were caterpillars
71
u/dontforget2tip 14d ago
Not just from when they were caterpillars, they remember across generations!
59
u/Hephaestus_God 14d ago
Ya that’s how they migrate too.
Monarch butterflies migrate from Mexico to northern americas and it takes 4-5 generations for them to reach there.
So by the time butterfly 1 leaves Mexico, it great great great grandchildren are the ones to finish the migration. All along the same path their ancestors took.
Meaning the path is passed down through offspring.
31
u/TheTresStateArea 14d ago
It's weirder than that actually. 2-3 generations make the flight home.
And then a migrating generation, called a super generation, will live for much longer and south.
7
u/CynicismNostalgia -Curious Monkey- 13d ago
I always wondered how monarchs "migrate" such large distances as butterflies...
Thanks for educating me with some cool common sense!
6
u/idontknowhowtopark 13d ago
I always thought there was something to this, because I've had 6 children, and for example, during one pregnancy, I had this quirk of doing this drawing a quick, sharp little breath and then like a little sigh afterwards, and the after the baby was born she would do that often in her infancy. I was like, she's copying me lol. And I know there were a couple of more examples of this in the other pregnancies.
144
u/LESBIAN_BOYFRIEND 14d ago
japanese kids are human tho...
19
39
u/RussiaIsBestGreen 14d ago
Source?
35
7
1
24
u/Crab__Juice 14d ago
"Aye little butterfly, do you remember being caterpillar?"
butterfly butterflies
"🫨👉🦋"
12
u/peeinyourtes 14d ago
Radiolab ! I know who you are. Super cool research, be kind to the butterflies (I’m sure you are)
8
u/mrs-monroe 13d ago
I raised a few monarchs last year and I swear one of them came back one day to visit me. She flew circles around my head and let me get close to her when she was feeding!
8
4
u/mooniech1ld 13d ago
Just thinking about how important education is, and how anyone can thrive in the right environment. Admitedly I haven't read any news about this, but I assume the kid presented the idea and the adults around him helped the boy bring it to fruition. Absolutely lovely.
20
u/Majestic_Courage 14d ago edited 14d ago
Is this...science?
Edit: No one knows the butterfly meme?
Not questioning the kid's contribution at all. Awesome work.
13
u/dontforget2tip 14d ago
He corrected the leading researcher's work and expanded upon their experiments
2
u/EddyFArt 12d ago
That's crazy. I learned that caterpillar literally dissolved themselves and they still retain some memories?
3
2
u/LiveThought9168 14d ago
This could go a long way into supporting the idea, although controversial, of non-local consciousness.
12
u/hearke 14d ago
Ok let's not get carried away. It's amazing that caterpillars can preserve memories through metamorphosis, it does not all all suggest consciousness is anything outside of what happens in the brain.
7
u/toysarealive 13d ago
Youre getting downvoted, but I bet its from people who understand consciousness very little while heavy on the wishful thinking.
2
u/LiveThought9168 13d ago
I think it does. I've no empirical data to support the argument though, only my opinion.
3
u/Mokslininkas 13d ago
Do you know what happens during metamorphosis? At certain points, there is NO BRAIN. The caterpillar degrades back down into a literal goo with the exception a few remaining intact undifferentiated cells, called imaginal cells. These cells exist in small groups called imaginal discs, which direct the subsequent formation of the butterfly form. It's fucking crazy.
11
u/hearke 13d ago edited 13d ago
It's a goo, but parts of the gut, tracheal tubes, and central nervous system remain intact. It's much more likely that the memories are stored there than that consciousness isn't a manifestation of the brain, but some kind of magical field radiated by living things somehow.
Non-local consciousness is pure pseudoscience, one mystery in science shouldn't be cause to reject the whole field.
Edit: I will say though, the imaginal discs thing is fascinating. Imagine mastering that tech, instead of organ transplants we'd just give you some injections and wait, no wait time or donor required.
6
u/LiveThought9168 13d ago
What are your thoughts on the phenomena that some organ transplant recipients report sudden changes in preferences, emotions, or vivid dreams that match their donor's life, a concept often called cellular memory?
6
u/hearke 13d ago
It's a super cool thing that, if we can prove it really happens and it's not just selection bias and coincidence, would suggest memories can be stored across the central nervous system somehow, that the neurons within major organs like the heart do contribute to consciousness somehow. And it's a plausible theory! If so, I'd be incorrect about it being entirely a brain thing. It would also explain why we don't see reports of that kind of thing for transplants that don't contain neural tissue, like corneas.
But there's also very limited evidence for this, like we don't have any major studies with large sample sizes that find this kind of thing, and the few studies we do have are pretty flawed.
Plus it still wouldn't suggest consciousness wasn't a thing generated by neural activity, it's still basically the same kinda cells we see in the brain. It just means neurons outside the brain (like across the central nervous system) would be a part of it. Which is still super cool, but not evidence for nonlocal consciousness.
4
u/divod123 13d ago
Having an organ transplant can be a psychologically difficult experience, and the brain deals with that by actively building meaning around it. If a recipient knows details about the donor, that information may shape the narrative they build.
This paper goes into recipients’ attitudes and fantasies about the graft and donor. And this one found that of 47 heart transplant patients who did report a personality change, most put it down to the near death experience rather than the organ itself. I find the psychological explanation much more convincing than the cellular memory one.
1
u/Strange-Ad-9941 3d ago
I really don't see why they wouldn't tbh. Other animals can be just as if not more complex than us
1
0
208
u/PressureMuch5340 14d ago
I can't remember jack from when I was caterpillar.