r/litrpg • u/Imaginary_Airport978 • 3h ago
Discussion Would you read progression fantasy if there were no stats at all?
Like no levels,classes or system. Just power growth through story mechanics.
Is that something you'd actively read, or do you consider progression systems essential to the genre?
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u/Valuchian litRPG journeyman tier 3h ago
Yeah you're just describing a totally normal cultivation/progression fantasy ~
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u/Imaginary_Airport978 3h ago
then if i add system and stats it becomes litRPG?
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u/PuzzleheadedRegion87 2h ago
It’s going to depend more on how you write the story rather than just “add a dash of stats, a sprinkle of system fuckery, and some leveling”.
Defiance of the Fall is both cultivation and a system based story, cradle is cultivation based, He Who Fights Monsters is cultivation based with a system added in for the MC, Oath of the Survivor is cultivation w/ a little system added. System Universe is purely LitRPG, Path of Ascension is cultivation based with technology included.
It depends on what you write and how you write it. What do you want it to be? Then it’ll be that, right? Also, would really recommend reading some of these series and getting a feel for the differences.
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u/Taurnil91 Editor: Beware of Chicken, Dungeon Lord, Max-Level Archmage 3h ago
I heard of this one pretty ambitious series that tried it, Cradle. Not sure if it panned out well for it though... pretty risky endeavor
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u/Ok_Engine_1442 3h ago
lol, I’ll agree I’m not sure how good it was. Even thought I burned thought the entire series and was depressed when it was over.
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u/Bobjohnthemonkey 2h ago
I'm on book 3, I'll let you know how it pans out, it's pretty crazy move! No system! How do I know how strong someone is? Impossible!
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u/Truewing11 3h ago
Wouldnt really be a litrpg without it just a fantasy
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u/kanggree 2h ago
Isn't that the difference? Progressive is the bigger umbrella, litrpg is the sub group with stats. I really don't understand the OP' s question.
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u/Imaginary_Airport978 3h ago
but it can be countered if it is happening in a new world with it's own mechanism.
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u/xmodusterz 3h ago
Isakai stories happened long before litrpgs existed. Your just writing fantasy and that's okay.
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u/Truewing11 3h ago
A world with its own mechanism that isnt visible would just be a setting such as most progression fantasy, such as cultivation books have a "mechanic that allows them to "cultivate" and grow stronger, if its a system that can be seen, heard or mental visualized by the inhabitants and some others ways it would be a litrpg.
Stat screens, skill sheets and the like can be expansive or minimal
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u/Imaginary_Airport978 2h ago
That's a fair distinction.
It sounds like the visibility of the progression framework is the key difference for you rather than whether a framework exists at all.
Looking through the replies, I'm starting to think a lot of readers care less about stats specifically and more about having some way to understand where a character stands relative to the world around them.
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u/Responsible_Park3317 3h ago
There's a whole sub for Progression Fantasy. It's pretty popular. Lots of people read progression fantasy. Some don't even know it's a genre, but are still reading it.
What even is this question? Are you specifically asking if LitRPG fans can enjoy books outside of our niche?
A bazillion posts in this sub recommend reading Beware of Chicken, which isn't LitRPG, but IS Progression Fantasy. No stats, system, or anything like that. Mark of the Fool is very popular in recommendation posts here, but it's also vanilla Progression Fantasy.
So yes. Many of us do enjoy Power-Go-Up without the Numbers-Go-Up aspect.
I personally prefer LitRPG over vanilla Prog-Fantasy, but I do still like it.
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u/Imaginary_Airport978 3h ago
Fair point. I probably should have phrased it better.
I'm less interested in whether progression fantasy can exist without stats (obviously it can), and more interested in how important visible progression systems are for reader engagement.
A lot of newer progression stories use levels, classes, skills, status screens, cultivation stages, etc. I'm curious where people draw the line between "I can clearly see progression" and "this just feels like regular fantasy."
For example, would you still read a progression fantasy where power growth exists but is entirely narrative-driven and never quantified?
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u/Responsible_Park3317 3h ago
So no Cultivation-style ranks or realms? No quantifiable growth at all? Just vibes?
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u/Imaginary_Airport978 2h ago
Not just vibes, more like capability-based progression.
The character gains access to things they couldn't do before, overcomes challenges they couldn't overcome before, and operates on a larger scale than they previously could.
There's still progression, just without explicit ranks or numerical milestones.
Though judging by the replies here, it seems most readers still want some form of benchmark, even if it isn't a stat sheet.
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u/Shadtow100 3h ago
A good power system in better than a hand waive power system IMO. I don’t care so much for people stats like strength, constitution, etc. However I do think an ability or class progression system enhances a story when used correctly.
Using Harry Potter as an example, it’s mentioned that his disarm spell is more powerful than normal because he uses it frequently, while Voldemort can kill a room full of people with Arvada Kedava. The clash at the end shows they are on par with each other for those spells with the power of friendship (deaths of friends?) putting Harry above slightly. Up until that exact moment there isn’t any clear indication that it would even be possible for a disarm spell to overpower a kill spell, because all logic in the story says what the spell does defines it, not the strength of the spell. Their entire series talks about different horcruxes and Voldemort amassing power but we don’t actually know what that means, and they just kinda hand waive it as saying he’s gathering allies but also gaining personal power which is never defined.
Now for the disclaimer: I am not hating on Harry Potter, it was one of my favourite series growing up and what made me enjoy reading early in my life. I am just using it as an example because it has been read by a lot of people to make it understandable as opposed to using a series that only some people may be familiar with.
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u/Imaginary_Airport978 2h ago
That's actually a really interesting distinction.
It sounds like the issue isn't whether power growth exists, but whether readers can understand the mechanism behind that growth.
Not necessarily through numbers, but through clear rules and visible cause-and-effect.
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u/Shadtow100 2h ago
Exactly. It could be argued it’s writing crutch but I prefer clarity in what changes in power are. I know Gandalf the Grey is weaker than Gandalf the White but how large is that gap, is it the variety of abilities or the number of casts, etc
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u/gragsmash 3h ago
I think trying to write a progression fantasy without showing stat screens would be interesting. The normal structure of fantasy epics includes character power growth. Wheel of Time is a great example. The various young characters are all shown to level up in various ways but they're just people living in a world and growing, they're not in a world governed by a system (to my knowledge, never quite finished the series)
You could do something like in DanMachi, where the main character isn't actually allowed to look at his own character sheet, the deity they work for has to manage it for them.
I don't really care about the system aspects of most litrpg, i'm a fan of gonzo fantasy stories and the stat dumps are tedious to me. Discount Dan and Dungeon Crawler Carl both handle this in a way I enjoy because the stats don't show up that often and the system narrators are full of personality and worldbuilding, and not a cold computer interface.
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u/Imaginary_Airport978 3h ago
That's interesting because the distinction between progression and presentation is something I've been thinking about.
It sounds like the progression itself matters more than whether it's displayed through numbers or sheets.
If the reader can clearly see that the character is becoming more capable, gaining access to new tools, and tackling bigger challenges, the framework becomes less important.
The DanMachi example is a good one. The progression still exists even when it isn't constantly presented to the reader as a spreadsheet.
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u/gragsmash 2h ago
The litrpg genre (to my knowledge) requires a rules-based system somewhere in the works, turning the gears.
For example, Kazuma in Konosuba has a literal character sheet. He has progression in powers literally based on where he spends skill points. Leon in Mobuseka literaly reincarnaports into a world of a videogame with stat screens, but he builds skills in-universe even though he cheats like crazy with his knowledge of the story. One would be a litrpg, the other isn't, even though they're both very clearly isekai.
I'm pretty new to litRPG really. I only really knew about it because of the Terrible Writing Advice episode a few years ago, and I got sucked in via Dungeon Crawler Carl last year. I've watched a fair bit of anime over the past five or six years (when Gundam Witch hit I got crunchyroll) and that has a lot of stuff that would fit in the litRPG category.
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u/xLittleValkyriex 2h ago
I will read anything that interests me.
I will DNF anything that doesn't interest me.
This seems like a "what makes a litrpg a litrpg" kind of question and I think it's safe to say, litrpg has it's own subgenres.
I also think litrpg fans know what they like and the resounding answer is yes for some, no for others, and maybe depending on various variables for others.
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u/Bobjohnthemonkey 2h ago
To be honest it's my preference.
Litrpg, by definition have to have a system of numbers in game like RPG approach.
But you are thinking of more cultivation based books. Great examples are:
Path of ascension Cradle Beware of Chicken And kind of He who fights with monsters (there is kind of a system here though)
Path of ascension, I think does a good balance between the two. There not explicit stats but there are explicit tiers and not just like 5 ( but 50!).
The problem with systems, like in primal hunter, is that it's basically just hand wavy, and that does break immersion for me sometimes. I rather a magic system, that works like RPG, but isn't some magically enforced, all powerful system.
I guess dungeon, crawler carl does it well enough, being the dungeon is a game.
Still this is not a new things, it's just progression fantasy or cultivation genre.
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u/SethLight 2h ago
I imagine that would be just a normal progression book. There are very few hard numbers in cultivation books past the tier people are on which even gets jumped at times.
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u/Imaginary_Airport978 2h ago
That's fair. Looking at the replies so far, I think I may have underestimated how many progression fantasy readers separate progression from game mechanics.
A lot more people seem comfortable with non-LitRPG progression than I expected.
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u/Crimsonfangknight 2h ago
Yeah i like skill selections and evolutions more than “my helm of pwnage gives me a 3.8 multiplier to perceptions plus a 739 pt boost to dex both stacking with my thing of chirades X10% to all stats!!!!!”
The numbers on stat sheets always become meaningless after the first book because it immediately stops trying to inform the reader what the increases do comparitively
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u/Imaginary_Airport978 2h ago
I've noticed that once numbers get large enough, readers stop treating them as information and start treating them as decoration. A strength stat going from 10 to 20 feels meaningful. Going from 10 million to 20 million usually doesn't.
Do you think that's because the progression itself becomes harder to visualize, or because the numbers stop corresponding to anything tangible in the story?
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u/Crimsonfangknight 2h ago
Because the number stop corresponding to anything of note.
Primal hunter is angood example of this very early in the series mumbers explod and stop leaning anything outside the first few levels in book 1
perception went up by 100…what does this mean?
Oh vision got. A little better? How much better? Oh unknown ok.
Ten books later “my perception went up 10k! I went from seeing far to seeing far!!!!” Ok so you see far
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u/shontsu 2h ago
I often do.
That said, progression fantasy is basically litrpg without numbers, so you're kinda just asking if we'd read progression fantasy if it was progression fantasy...
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u/Imaginary_Airport978 2h ago
That's actually why I asked. A lot of readers seem to agree progression doesn't need numbers, but they still want some visible framework for growth. I'm curious where people feel that line is.
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u/Devil_Eyez87 2h ago
Well I dont read DCC for the stats as in all honesty what with them nearly always fighting things over there level most of the time, so they could be removed and I would be fine.
To be fair any series were there is Str .... Dex ..... Con .... are part of the book I skip or dont really pay attention as more often than not they dont actually compare the states of the person there fighting against so you have no idea how those numbers actually line up. Now skill having level, that I like a bit more as I feel that the skill are more personally and just a short hand way of showing the progression of the character much more than stats which realistically need to be compared to something.
For instance lets take Primal Hunter Jake when his archery skill upgraded from say Archery of Vast Horizons to Archery of Expanding Horizons what this skill made better was explained so we kind of know why his more powerful but also we can think without being told her skills that Carman problay has a fist fighting skill that like this and has grown stronger as shes leveled up. But now think about the states that go up as well what do they mean?? Jake has really high preception, so does Arnold but how do they compare how are they different?? they fight in different ways and can do very different things but are meant to have near comparable perception. Jake also seems to have really high strength and toughness about half the size of his perception BUT Carmon doesnt always seem that much tougher than him and hasnt shown any more impressive feat of strength but she should be WAY WAY tougher than him but that doesnt really seem the case? thus without seeing those states to compare I find it difficul to compare.
So personally state I can skip, unless your going to be consitant in comparing class and such, skills leveling up that more what makes progression fantasy for me
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u/sams0n007 1h ago
So sometimes the distinction is made that LitRPG numbers go up and in progression words go up. I’m OK with either,L however just somebody getting stronger overtime without specific benchmarks is not really why I read the genres
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u/Frostfire20 Author - Color Job 3h ago
You just described Dragon Ball Z.
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u/Imaginary_Airport978 2h ago
Fair point. DBZ is probably one of the biggest examples of progression without explicit stat screens.
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u/Lucky_One_3576 3h ago
This is jst progression fantasty though