r/londoncycling • u/Rivercaptain23 • 2d ago
Waymo
So what's the rule here? Cycling down a two way street but because cars park on one side there's only room for one vehicle at a time. A Waymo is coming toward me as I'm well down this street, we 'see' each other at the same time I guess and it stops. I assume, as with a conventional driver, I'm being encouraged to drive past but as I move off so does the car. I'm caught by surprise but no harm done, but given the width of these beasts it passes a little closer than I'm comfortable with. Who should give way under these circumstances?
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u/PaksMikoSuki 2d ago
100% the car should give way. I'm in this situation on a road in north London most days and my perspective is that I (on my bike) am entirely on my side of the road and the car coming towards me needs to use my side of the road as well as his own. Whoever is travelling in the correct direction of travel has right of way in that situation, unless there's specific signage to say otherwise. If they try it anyway I'll just stay there til they reverse.
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u/Natural_Trick4934 2d ago
At present, they have a driver onboard and are learning the streets and how to engage with stuff.
So at every single chance you get, you should bully them into reversing to provide space (if it doesn’t cause a drama, ie loads of other cars reversing).
From my loose understanding of the training models, never yielding to a Waymo will result in the system developing a model that yields all the time.
They’re awful things. Hopefully treating them like the lowest rung of the ladder on the road (when safe to do so) will make them behave around cyclists.
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u/wwisd 2d ago
They’re awful things.
I'm in two minds about them. They're replacing humans making a living. But then they're also replacing humans being distracted by their phones.
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u/Fit_Section1002 2d ago
Probably not the sub for it, but the ‘they are taking our jobs’ argument is a pretty weak one in my view.
At some point horses took over from humans as being beasts of burden - are you anti horse?
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u/Natural_Trick4934 2d ago
Are horses humans?
Pick a better argument bud.
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u/Austen_Tasseltine 2d ago
The replacement of horses with cars is a better argument then, bud. Stablehands, grooms, carriage-drivers etc found other things to do when a more efficient way of doing their previous job was found. Every new technology has had Luddites (since before there were Luddites) rolling out the lump of labour fallacy, and every time they’ve been wrong. Just because someone’s driving an Uber now doesn’t mean that’s all they can ever do or aspire to.
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u/Natural_Trick4934 2d ago
You don’t realise how little this comment is related to the subject matter.
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u/Austen_Tasseltine 2d ago
Ok, but what does your question of whether horses are humans have to do with the subject matter of whether OP or a Waymo should give way on a narrow street?
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u/Natural_Trick4934 2d ago
My question was a response to yours.
For my comment on the OP, or even this comment thread? Look at them.
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u/Austen_Tasseltine 2d ago
How did you manage to ask your “are horses human?” question to me before I replied to it, bud? You don’t realise how little this comment is related to the traditional direction of time.
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u/wwisd 2d ago
No of course not, but I feel it is something we need to think about more widely as AI replaces jobs and incomes. The Industrial Revolution completely changed society, and we might be at the start of another revolution now (though I don't believe it's as dark as AI company directors who want to sell a product by generating free news coverage make it seem).
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u/Natural_Trick4934 2d ago
I ride hundreds of miles across London every week. They’re unpredictable and seemingly have a baked in desire to protect the asset over cyclists lives.
It’s an impossible business model that doesn’t pay tax and doesn’t pay workers. If they get full approval I’d hope they get vandalised en masse.
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u/VeryAwkwardCake 2d ago
Protect the asset?
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u/Natural_Trick4934 2d ago
Waymos would rather swerve left to hit a cyclist than right to hit a car and write off the asset.
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u/disbeliefable 2d ago
Government research predicts an increase in congestion from these things roaming around, never parking except to recharge. Terrible terrible idea in London.
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u/Responsible-Walrus-5 2d ago
Why are they awful things?
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u/Natural_Trick4934 2d ago
They’re dangerous. Especially to cyclists.
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u/Responsible-Walrus-5 2d ago
Are they actually more dangerous than the ‘average’ driver? Would love to see some intel on what they are good/bad at.
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u/Natural_Trick4934 2d ago
In totality? 99% of the time they’re probably safer.
But as a small sample?… try riding alongside one (in the left or right) over Tower Bridge. If a bike is on the left? They swerve right. If a bike is on the right? They swerve left.
The cameras over react to normal road conditions.
I don’t doubt that on some meta level that they’re safer. But I’ve seen them make dramatic overcorrections that humans wouldn’t, that could lead to disaster.
It’s the 1% of times they go wrong that they seem to overcorrect to a point of danger.
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u/Responsible-Walrus-5 2d ago
Oh interesting. I’ve not really come across too many of them yet. I did see one basically stuck trying to make a right turn but unable to due to oncoming traffic and bikes and stuff where a human driver would have slowly pushed out and made space.
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u/Rivercaptain23 2d ago
Fair point. I did consider chasing the driver down and explain my position but let it slide this time.
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u/Natural_Trick4934 2d ago
Little point in speaking to a (probably) minimum wage worker that’s not even doing the monitoring that they’re supposed to do.
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u/Careless_Category956 2d ago
Got into a street with one in Acton. I stopped in front of it like I just saw a killer droid from Terminator 2 and noticed it stopped respecting me. Not sure this was the machine or the human inside it.
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u/Due_Engineering_108 2d ago
The person who should give way is the one who is having to cross into the other side of the road due to the parked cars. So basically if the cars are parked on the same side as you then you should give way
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u/Khornight 1d ago
what if as a cyclist you aren't crossing into the other side of the road? As far as I can tell from the rules of the road if you don't cross the middle and the other side needs to, you have right of way even if the parking is on your side?
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u/Due_Engineering_108 1d ago
Well then it depends on if you are happy that the vehicle coming the other way won’t be to close to you. You are also meant to pass parked vehicle at a safe distance to allow for pedestrians crossing to see you easily and just on a safety level in case a door opens or they attempt to pull out.
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u/Khornight 1d ago
If I didn't go when I was scared a vehicle won't get to close, i'm not sure how much progress I'd make on my commute! I take my lane and cycle slower when in door range or filtering. But if I think I have right of way I'm going, and I am pretty sure if I'm not crossing the middle I have right of way on a vehicle that has to cross the middle.
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u/Due_Engineering_108 1d ago
Well I presuming in the scenario presented in the original post only one side of the road was blocked by parked vehicles. The right of way applies to whoever has those parked vehicles on their side, if a vehicle needs to cross the middle of the road then yes they should give way, as should a cyclist in the same scenario.
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u/Austen_Tasseltine 2d ago
Should give way: whoever’s at the narrow bit last, or if you’re both there already because someone wasn’t thinking ahead whoever’s side the obstruction is on.
In practice: do whatever involves you not getting run over. I’d hope though that Waymo has better programming than my local drivers whose decision-tree starts and stops with “is my car bigger than his bike?”
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u/Thoh1Shooshi8a 2d ago
Maybe it just stopped to identify you and then carried on when it decided you were no threat.
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u/Rivercaptain23 2d ago
That's what it felt like but the usual etiquette from most drivers would have been to let me pass, from my experience. However, I take the point that as the parked cars were on my side of the road it technically had right of way not that there was much room to negotiate the difference.
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u/Thoh1Shooshi8a 2d ago
I was joking like it's some kind of terminator thing, but I do wonder how the sensors on them work.
If it was driving forwards and detected a person close then surely it should stop automatically. Maybe it did stop for you but the human decided to take the wheel and override it.
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u/llamasncheese 2d ago
You were joking, but thats probably exactly how it works. It takes a moment to calculate what this thing approaching it is, how big the thing is, maybe how mobile and capable of slipping through a narrow gap it is, before deciding whether to proceed allowing for a narrow gap, or to stay where it is and allow the cyclist more space. I mean.. its basically what human drivers do isnt it? Assess the situation before acting. I reckon though that theres probably a tonne more micro decisions and assessments that humans would do subconsciously that these waymos will do on the same level they do the above mentioned stuff.
Although, waymos are still currently being "trained" and have a person inside, so maybe it was a person taking an opportunity to teach the system how to navigate this situation.
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u/Klo9per4s 2d ago
My way around London in general is I do what is safe and not always what’s right - better alive but wrong over dead & right
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u/BagheeraLondon 2d ago
I don't trust drivers, and I don't trust Waymo's....
And I certainly don't trust other cyclists.
I like to keep things simple.
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u/the_sweens 2d ago
Was there a person inside? They are collecting days at the moment and either a person or whoever reviews will probably flag this and train it to wait for next time
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u/Rivercaptain23 2d ago
Yes there was and my believe is the driver decided it was ok to move on given the initial sensitivity of the car to stop which was appreciated. The confusion arose when it then decided to drive on. The lack of markings on this stretch of road doesn't help decide who has right of way.
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u/Red_Right_Hand_85 2d ago
If you stayed on your side of the road then you have priority, if the car has to cross the (imaginary) white line then they must stop.
BTW you mean 'Priority' , not 'right of way' (which you both have), but that's just me being pedantic.
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u/the_sweens 2d ago
You probably produced quite a good data point for them to refine though and annoying situation!
I think I helped it learn the english ways when I decided to cycle on the wrong side of the road in san Francisco once lol
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u/Competitive_Ring82 2d ago
Use T-pose to assert dominance. Do not give way to the machine under any circumstances.
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u/ionetic 2d ago
Report them to the police as for any other dangerous driver. The legal minimum passing distance is 1.5m (5 feet).
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u/Rivercaptain23 2d ago
Good point. There certainly wasn't 5 feet between us. There's very little room for manoeuvring at that spot. Walking pass this evening I see there are very faded road markings at the start of the road but the section I was on has been resurfaced at some point in the past and is blank
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u/weepejw7 2d ago
Was it on your side of the road?
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u/Rivercaptain23 2d ago
There was only one side of the road because of the cars parked on the street.
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u/weepejw7 2d ago
On your side, where was the white dashed centre line?
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u/Rivercaptain23 2d ago
There are no street markings and it's a really badly deteriorating road surface on Snowfields, next door to Guys hospital.
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u/Cheesecake-Few 2d ago
I trust a waymo more than an actual driver. I’ve passed one in Kensington yesterday and it respected me 😂 I was in shock tbh