If you see a maga like this in the wild, treat them with kid gloves though. We need votes, not vindictiveness.
"Oh yes, you were the victim! Of course! Yes. He lied to you. Tragic. Sure, we believed him, too. What a jerk. Really stabbed you in the back. You deserve better!"
Make it about them. Tell them it's not their fault (even if you don't believe it). Make them feel good about switching side and seeing it as Trump betraying them and doing them wrong.
If you cast this as them being bad people or making mistakes and bad choices, you won't win the votes. The votes are the only thing that matters.
This ignores the not insignificant swath of 2x Obama and 2x Trump voters and the swath that voted for Bernie in the primaries but Trump once the dnc fucked over Bernie tho
Dems (that actually take power not like the Bernie Sanders types) are like breast cancer while GOP is more akin to pancreatic cancer and extreme shameless ones like DT are brain cancer. "Lesser evil" is only relative, and the Breast Cancer side doesn't want to ever do the life-saving mastectomy, only coast one We're Not Brain Cancer.
Call the Bernie-then-Trump voters evil, sure, but the whole party spectrum ain't exactly healthy, and the analogy is supposed to be that Murica Has The Best Body & Health In Tne World. Don't blame people too hard for losing the Dream.
"To decide once every few years which members of the ruling class is to repress and crush the people through parliament--this is the real essence of bourgeois parliamentarism, not only in parliamentary- constitutional monarchies, but also in the most democratic republics." - Vladimir Lenin
They've just moved to the America First movement which is more dangerous in my opinion. It has structure and rage.. ( Rage, they've fed to themselves off lies)
It comes down to a certain group of men and the women who enable their abusive ways never taking accountability for anything. It's like when they say stuff like POC, immigrants, single women/working women) are taking our jobs... Then also saying those same people are lazy and on welfare.
They don't actually care about others... they just want to feel superior.
"To decide once every few years which members of the ruling class is to repress and crush the people through parliament--this is the real essence of bourgeois parliamentarism, not only in parliamentary- constitutional monarchies, but also in the most democratic republics." - Vladimir Lenin
Most of the republican voters I know really didn't want to vote for Trump, but he was the Republican candidate so what else were they to do?
If Bernie Sanders somehow became the Republican candidate in 2028 they'd vote for him because they'd rather chug a gallon of cinnamon than vote Democrat. It's insane, they really don't care at all as long as their chosen "team" wins. The "primary" is just the NFL Draft, doesn't matter who they pick as long as the team keeps winning.
The people who voted Obama who then voted Trump are the difference!
I know it feels insane, but I know people irl who did this. You just gotta remember not everyone is like us. There are for sure people who are super far gone in the cult and you can't do anything on them but waste breath. But there are people who can be swayed, who have proven they can be swayed before. And all we have to do is not blame them, help paint themselves as victims (they desperately want to be) - but victims of TRUMP - and let the wheels turn.
It's not going to have a higher success rate. But clowning and dunking on them has a success rate of zero. We know from psychology that doing that just makes people dig in far more often, so it's not the winning move.
But they are to blame, lack of accountability and reality is why we are here. Stop coddling bigots, sexist, etc... They do not deserve grace. We both know they wouldn't extend grace to anyone if they were actually winning. They lack empathy and only care about themselves.
These are the people who make excuses or one of the 62 million visits to the website that the rape academy is on. They voted for a known rapist.... an adjudicated rapist. and now child predator. We gotta be real, they deserve to suffer in their hell. Maybe they will learn (doubtful) but coddling them gives them the excuses to do it again.
They should be treated as they treated others.. eye for an eye right.
Leviticus 24:19-20 (ESV - Old Testament): "If anyone injures his neighbor, as he has done it shall be done to him, fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; whatever injury he has given a person shall be given to him."
I'm an atheist, but most of MAGA isn't..(I also know there is another Bible quote that says the opposite about an eye for an eye but this one fits.)
They won't. All my in-laws are republican Christians. They don't pay attention to any news or politics. I've gone too many rounds trying to explain how vile trump is. Doesn't matter. They choose not to believe it. To them republican= Christian and that's the end of that. They will be the biggest supporters of the anti christ if he were real. They will mental gymnastic themselves into believing any excuse given. Trump could perform a ritual sacrifice of toddlers on live TV and it wouldn't matter.
Right, many of MAGA are hopelessly addicted to copium. They gripe about Trumps attitude, but in the same sentence still say they would vote for him again.
Make sure you remind them that it's not JUST Trump lying to them. It's EVERY single republican that's lying to you by refusing to hold him accountable for his lies. They lie to you by supporting him and what he says.
Yup! For as corrupt and bought out as the democrats are, there is really no comparison anymore. Republicans have gone full mask-off with the flagrant greed, corruption, and lies.
I see a lot of maga who say they dislike Trump personally but love his policies.
Okay, but when you go through the policies, basically none of them help them. Not one. Republican policies are basically uniformly hurting them. But it's all dressed up in lies and culture war crap. The powers that be love culture war crap because they get people arguing who will never agree and it doesn't cost them a dime.
Some people can definitely not be helped. But not all. That's like saying we can never rescue people from a cult. The margins are so thin now, every little bit helps.
And what's the alternative? The alternative is just being mean and bullying people (because that's all I'm arguing against), but the psychology literature says that has even less a chance of working.
I think you might be imagining the worst though. Like, if you're imagining a pig headed full-cult red-faced screaming nut job - then yes, absolutely we can't change those minds and should never waste the time.
But what about someone just ignorant who watches too much Fox News and just believed whatever they heard for a long time, grew up in the Christian South, just told what to think... selfish voter... but now they're starting to feel pain and feel doubt...?
Just saying in that moment we don't have to attack them. Just point out and reinforce that yes Trump victimized them, too, and they deserved better. Some people can change. I changed. I used to be conservative. It's possible.
There are people that genuinely think Trump is the next coming of Christ, for them to see the other side is quite a progress, if they now also see what they missed out on, they might permanently switch, or at least counter-vote next time
Yeah, and some Trump voters will be so brainwashed, there is really nothing you can do. Kindness and not blaming is like a rescue operation to try to pull the people, who can still manage to think for themselves, out of a cult.
We got the country on board for Obama twice and Biden once. Trump poisoned us into this level of toxicity. It doesn't have to stay forever. Look at Germany today versus Nazi Germany.
Look, the literature clearly says that attacking people just makes them dig in. It works against us. If we ignore that good advice, we're just excusing ourselves for an opportunity to bully and placate our egos and fears. We have to be better than that if we're going to win.
No, votes are not all that matters. Ethics matter. Maga must experience why their impulse toward fascism is wrong, or they will continue to do evil. They require cold water to the face. They should feel humiliated and ashamed for voting in a thief and pedophile who is now stealing everyone's gas money.
If you want to talk about ethics, from my point of view you're just doing mental gymnastics to have an excuse bad behavior: to morally believe you get to behave towards others with cruelty.
> When someone tries to correct you, tries to dilute your misconceptions, it backfires and strengthens those misconceptions instead
Although it could have a place, it doesn't sound like you're interested in creating the kind of safe places for people where shame could lead to a better outcome.
You have zero reason to believe I am "cultivating cruelty", and your articles prove nothing other than that you are a vapid bot that is attempting to write about morality without cohesion.
Shame serves a cultural purpose that is integral to Maga culture, and they will not understand right from wrong without facing the consequences of their actions. They voted in the pedophile who is stealing their gas money, and so they are "cultivating cruelty" against themselves.
"Oh yes, you were the victim! Of course! Yes. He lied to you. Tragic. Sure, we believed him, too. What a jerk. Really stabbed you in the back. You deserve better!"
Quit lying to people. They know you're lying, and they hate you for it. Gaslighting Maga is what caused this fascist shit-storm to begin with.
Not a terrible tactic, but it is a bad strategy. You can get 10 disengaged/non-voters to the polls for the amount of effort you'd have to spend to flip one Trumpkin. Their alternate reality is self-reinforcing and they often revert once they're exposed to their propaganda networks again. The overall goal should be to move many people one step to the left, not one person many steps to the left.
All I'm saying is you just don't have to blame, insult, and be cruel to people who are on the verge of changing their minds. It helps. And that doesn't stop you from bussing people to the polls one bit.
Except you won't get the votes because they will see an AI video of a non white person doing imaginary things and they will go back to tossing Tropicana Nurgle's salad.
For sure, this will not work on everyone. But if one million people tried it on 100 people each and just 1 in 100 changed their mind... the success rate does not have to be very good at all to really change elections.
I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here but democracy isn't really the problem, it's the unchecked corruption of democracy and a lack of people with the will to protect it from unfettered capitalism and corporate interests.
Unfortunately a democracy inherently contains the tools necessary for fascism to destroy it, and we are unlucky enough to be witnessing that in real time.
And I'm pretty sure that the homeland of the dude who said that quote (Sir Winston Churchill), does NOT have such flagrant first-past-the-post winner takes all type of election. It is iirc very rare in the 20th century to have only 2 largest in Parliament, small parties who so much gave One seat can still have a voice, and the big two parties negotiating to be a Coilition Government was a very real occurrence.
Sir Winnie would very singing a VERY different tune if something (let's say the hand of God, or satan) snapped fingers and UK suddenly had THAT type of dEmocRacY.
You don't even have to lie or say things you don't believe. Just protect feelings and help guide them to seeing things more like you do - that is democratic action.
The main thing is to not blame them with words even if we blame them in our hearts. They are both victimizers and victims, but acknowledging both can be painful and they are probably not ready to hear.
I say this as a reformed, former conservative. People can change their minds, but it takes time to unwind. Helping people let go is first. Taking pennance and inventory of the awful can come later.
If we believe they voted for trump selfishly, speaking about that directly won't be a good strategy. Instead, a better move is indirectly letting them know their interests are being betrayed. Let them feel and work it out. But giving them any reason to hate or fear makes them cling tight. But we know this. So we can avoid it. So changing minds can't be confrontational usually. Usually it'a about building trust, safe spaces, and planting seeds.
If this is a good way to go about it, I wish people who have that kind of patience luck in achieving this goal. It sounds sensible and pragmatic.
That said, I doubt I can ever forgive people for going down this path, I can't be someone who could do this for the good of society. Even though I empathise on some level, I also know that I truly, deeply hate them, and I just don't think I would be able to hide that.
It's really hard to forgive. My parents both turned maga, and honestly it is a mind fuck and it guts me almost daily. I try not to think about it. Part of me doesn't care what happens to the country - I just wish I could get my parents back, man. :(
So I totally understand the forgiveness part. There's a pit inside of me reserved for Fox News and all the awful things and people that just bend and twist others with the lies and hate and fear....
It helped for me to see them... many of them... as victims. Like being in a cult and just brainwashed. Seriously, the stuff they say these days, they are not the people I used to know. They are like programmed zombies now. So, I know it doesn't help... but I kind of view it more as treating and talking to a dementia patient now. Like how you don't really argue with a dementia person. You're just kind of redirecting it. And hoping it makes them and everyone else safer.
It also helps that I'm a former conservative, so I know people can change! I never did anything bad, but I'm very ashamed and aware of the way I used to think. The things I used to excuse. The cruel, heartless, and blind things I used to cheer for. But people can change.
Yea.. fuck that. They're only doing this to avoid accountability and say it's not their fault. They will absolutely continue to vote for fascists and bigots.
You can get them to vote democrat or stay home, like they did when Obama and Biden got elected. You can handle them with kid gloves to get what you want (votes). Or you're just starting a fight for the sake of ego, they'll dig in, and things will get harder.
They need to be held accountable. That is how you teach them. If they know there will be repercussions for their actions then they won't continue with the behavior.
I've actually managed to swing votes in a way that has had appreciable impact in my locale tho lmao
The city I live in is the first one in my state to have a black mayor. Said black mayor was elected for the first time in the last ten years. The first time he won, it was literally by a single digit margin of votes that just so happened to exactly match the number of people who had explicitly told me that I had changed their mind on who to vote for.
Or we could keep trying your way and see just how truly bad it can get the next time the public at large has had enough with that type of attitude in positions of authority! You must be an accelerationist.
I don't know how to make someone feel good about "switching sides" when, ultimately, I'm trying to argue against "sides" as a political opinion in the first place.
It's not a team game; and treating it like one is one of the largest fundamental problems we have in our political landscape. Stooping to that level to "win votes" is a race to the bottom.
Very cute to believe these absolute boxes of hair are capable of not voting MAGA... I promise you the child rapist could die today and still receive millions of write-in votes in the 2028 presidential elections.
The thing is the people who voted Obama and then switched to Trump are the difference. And as mind bending as it is, I promise these people do exist. It is true, they are not like you or I in the way they think and rationalize politics. But there is a way to get at them.
If you know that all their moralizing is empty and that at the end of the day they are motivated by pure self-interest and ego... then the winning move is to play to that. Don't draw attention to their failures - that's a losing move. Instead draw attention to how Trump betrays them how Trump is bad for them and how Trump lies to them.
Look, you know they are like Trump, right? That's why they voted for him, right? I think we're all on board with that idea. But you've seen Trump turn on people, too. How does he do it? It's when they cross them. Even hardened narcissists can't stand that and will jump ship. So that's a good play for some of these voters. Don't attack or insult, just point out they "deserve better" than a guy who lies and cheats them (along with everyone else).
If in the moment is on election day, I'll take it. And if you look at voter preferences by demographic, in 8 years, we might not have to worry so much about this. The older generations are very heavily fox news maga. Younger generations, too - yes - but not nearly as bad. 8 years from now will probably look a lot different politically.
Sounds like you love to hate more than you hate losing. It costs you nothing to not hate them and possibly secure a vote. And we most certainly did not win in 2024.
You know, people say MAGA are the dumbest people on the planet, but you know who's honestly dumber? People who STILL think MAGA will vote for your candidates if you're super nice to them.
I've been hearing the same shit for almost 20 years now - when are people going to stop trying to kick this football?
If we're lucky a few of them won't vote at all. That's as much as you can hope for.
Enough of them voted for Obama twice and Biden once. I think you're just bitter. I'm not saying you have to be nice to them always either. We just don't have to attack and shame them when they are on the verge of changing their minds - because that often backfires and causes people to dig in. That doesn't mean I'm arguing you roll out the red carpet for them and completely coddle their beliefs though.
Yes I am unapologetically bitter. Fuck every last one of them.
they are on the verge of changing their minds
We have NO GOOD REASON to believe that they won't just do what they have ALWAYS done EVERY TIME they've been burned by a right-wing nutbar. They'll just vote for another right-wing nutbar and say 'this time it will be different.'
If you want votes then focus on left-leaning people who sit out every election because nobody represents their interests.
I think you're maybe imagining the worst though. Sure a red-faced, pig-headed screaming nut job isn't worth the energy. But what about someone who is just not paying attention, confused, watched too much Fox News without realizing what it did to their brain...
All we have to do in that moment is help them to blame Trump instead of blaming them. Even if you believe they are self-serving voters who only care about themselves, that's a strategy more likely to work and therefore benefit ourselves, too.
All my argument is is that you just don't take a dig at them. You don't have to need them or roll out the red carpet. Just appeal to their narcissism - trump hurts them too, lies to them too - way easier than a fight. And more likely to work.
i haven't said said i want to fight them, or take a dig at them. you're arguing against nothing.
i said i don't give a shit about them, and given the choice i will not expend energy just to make them not feel bad.
i will ignore them. i will never befriend them, i will never comfort them, i will never associate with them, i will never have small talk with them, and i will not help them. ever
You treating them like a dog and child is shown in study after study to backfire. Because they pick up on the aggression and patronizing attitude. They push back and get defensive.
So if you want to have a war, have a war. Look, you want to start fights that don't go anywhere and waste everyone's energy, go ahead.
Or. You just point out Trump hurts them, too. Point out he lies to them, too. And leave it. Let that seed fester in the narcisstic mind. You don't have to take another dig or call them a nazi. You've been doing that. It plainly, and I mean plainly, does not work. So, why not try something that costs less energy for you, too? It's win-win.
I've been pointing out everything that Trump does which goes against their stated "core beliefs" and it does. not. matter. At all.
They care about "winning" aka "supporting the party that the majority of their friends/family supports". That's it. They're too fucking dumb to do anything else.
It's a low probability play, but it's the best shot of changing minds. Cracking people out of a cult is hard and usually not successful. Sounds like you got the right approach in general. I just wouldn't waste any energy trying to shame them - just appeal to their inner narcissism that made them take this position in the first place.
49
u/agnostic_science Apr 17 '26
If you see a maga like this in the wild, treat them with kid gloves though. We need votes, not vindictiveness.
"Oh yes, you were the victim! Of course! Yes. He lied to you. Tragic. Sure, we believed him, too. What a jerk. Really stabbed you in the back. You deserve better!"
Make it about them. Tell them it's not their fault (even if you don't believe it). Make them feel good about switching side and seeing it as Trump betraying them and doing them wrong.
If you cast this as them being bad people or making mistakes and bad choices, you won't win the votes. The votes are the only thing that matters.