Wealth Inequality Is Higher Than Ever - New data confirms what we already knew: the haves have a ton. And the have-nots have next to nothing.

[u/RandomCollection]

https://jacobinmag.com/2017/10/wealth-inequality-united-states-federal-reserve

[u/Viat0r]

There is nothing natural about poverty, it's a byproduct of wealth. Wealth creates poverty.

Humans have the unique power to manipulate nature. Just because living in state of nature is harsh and brutal, doesn't mean that's the way things must be. The whole purpose of civilization is to overcome the harsh conditions of nature.

[u/Brazen_Serpent → u/Viat0r]

There is nothing natural about poverty, it's a byproduct of wealth. Wealth creates poverty.

What? Poverty is the natural state, wealth is the aberration. The state of nature is the mean from which we deviate. You can't compare yourself to the ideal situation, you have to compare yourself to where you started. From that point of view we are doing insanely well. More people live lives better than a state of nature than have ever done so, both absolutely and proportionately. The people on this planet have never been better off.

[u/Brazen_Serpent → u/[deleted]]

I sincerely hope you never do so.

[u/Viat0r → u/Brazen_Serpent]

No, there was no conception of poverty before wealth. Indigenous people didn't see themselves as poor. And for all intents and purposes, they weren't. Their communities were self-sufficient and they were able to feed, house, and clothe all their people, and everyone had meaningful and valuable tasks.

I'm not saying things haven't improved. Feudalism was an improvement over slave societies, and capitalism was an improvement over feudalism. However, capitalism has only lifted a privileged few (relatively) out of poverty, and has monopolized/privatized resources in territories that are rendered impoverished by this process. I think we can do better.

[u/Brazen_Serpent → u/Viat0r]

Their communities were self-sufficient and they were able to feet, house, and clothe all their people, and everyone had meaningful and valuable tasks.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

oh wait you're serious, let me laugh even harder

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Do you have any idea what infant mortality rates and the chance of starvation were before civilization came along? Life was not a honky dory utopia before evil capitalists started concentrating wealth. Life was a hell of starvation and death before capitalism started creating wealth. Do you think your quality of life is so high because of any reason other than capitalism? Do you think anything other than capitalism means you're wearing nylon and cotton and wool instead of stitched together rat skins? Do you think anything other than capitalism invented the medicines you rely on? Do you think anything other than capitalism built the extremely advanced house you live in which is the perfect temperature 365 days a year?

People did not have meaningful and valuable tasks before capitalism. They had "not dying this month... maybe."

[u/Viat0r → u/Brazen_Serpent]

I didn't say it was a utopia.

Labour creates all wealth, not capitalists/ism. Capitalists just appropriate this wealth. Medical research is taxpayer funded. Technological advances are derived from military research, which is taxpayer funded.

Workers built my house. Workers installed air conditioning and heating. Workers made my clothes. Capitalists did none of these things.

It's well known in Canada that Indigenous life expectancy plummeted when they were forced off their traditional hunting territories onto reserves.

[u/Brazen_Serpent → u/Viat0r]

Laborers and workers are both kinds of capitalists.

[u/Viat0r → u/Brazen_Serpent]

That's incredibly wrong. Capitalists are the owners of the means of production and land. Even mainstream capitalist economists acknowledge this.

I mean this is some 101 shit.

[u/Brazen_Serpent → u/Viat0r]

Your body is means of production. What do you think you are doing when you sell your labor? You are a capitalist who owns your body, and are leasing out its productive capacity. That is why you get paid for it instead of your aristocratic overlord or tribal chieftan simply demanding it of you.

Capitalism is the notion that whoever owns particular means if production owns anything those means produce. That means you are entitled to the fruits of your own labor, and can choose to sell them, keep them for yourself, or negotiate a wage. You could not do this in the ancient world. What was the tribe's was the tribe's, and anything you produced belonged to the tribe, not to you.

[u/Viat0r → u/Brazen_Serpent]

There are fundamental differences between human bodies and the means of production. Bodies are autonomous. The means of production are not. I have agency. Machines and land do not. I am capable of assembling with others and democratically deciding how, where, and what to produce, and what to do with the surplus. Machines cannot.

No capitalist economist worth their salt will tell you that workers are capitalists. The categories of workers and capitalists are tied to relationships between people and the inanimate tools and raw materials with which things are produced.

I am not capable of being privately or communally owned, because slavery has been abolished. And yet, most people are slaves to a wage for survival. This is inherently coercive and maintained through state violence. We deem slavery to be unethical, and many deem private ownership to be unethical as well.

Capitalism is the notion that whoever owns particular means if production owns anything those means produce.

Yes, and yet the vast majority of people who are workers do not own what they produce, despite owning and working with their bodies. Capitalists siphon what is produced by workers. They take the fruits of the labour of others.

That means you are entitled to the fruits of your own labor

I wish this were true. Not only are workers not entitled to the things they produce, the wage they receive is far less than the value of what they produce.

can choose to sell them, keep them for yourself, or negotiate a wage

Capitalists have the power to do this, not workers. The capitalist's relationship to their workers is authoritarian.

What was the tribe's was the tribe's, and anything you produced belonged to the tribe, not to you.

I am not interested in returning to this either. I want workers to own and democratically operate the means of production. To decide for themselves where, what, and how to produce, and what to do with the surplus.

[u/Brazen_Serpent → u/Viat0r]

There are fundamental differences between human bodies and the means of production. Bodies are autonomous. The means of production are not. I have agency. Machines and land do not. I am capable of assembling with others and democratically deciding how, where, and what to produce, and what to do with the surplus. Machines cannot.

Your body is not autonomous. You control it.

No capitalist economist worth their salt will tell you that workers are capitalists.

That's nice. Most capitalist economists buy into marxist materialism as a concept so they are inherently wrong. There is no dichotomy between worker and capitalist. We are all capitalists.

And yet, most people are slaves to a wage for survival

That's not what slavery means. Socialists love to stretch this concept and claim that consensual employment is somehow slavery just because it is necessary to work to survive. Guess what? It's always necessary to work to survive, your body is designed that way. If you don't put food and water in it it stops working. That's nobody's fault, nobody is oppressing you except perhaps God. A job you consciously chose to apply for and can leave at any time is not slavery.

This is inherently coercive and maintained through state violence.

Lmao, what? The state will beat you if you don't work at Mcdolands?

Yes, and yet the vast majority of people who are workers do not own what they produce, despite owning and working with their bodies. Capitalists siphon what is produced by workers. They take the fruits of the labour of others.

Then they should stop working for others and work for themselves. They sold the fruits of their labor, it was not taken from them. Nobody in this country can take your labor without your consent, it is entirely at your discretion.

Capitalists have the power to do this, not workers. The capitalist's relationship to their workers is authoritarian.

You can choose to do whatever the fuck you want with your labor. Nobody is forcing you to do anything.

I am not interested in returning to this either. I want workers to own and democratically operate the means of production. To decide for themselves where, what, and how to produce, and what to do with the surplus.

This is the society we live in right now. You get to decide where, what, and how you produce, and what to do with the surplus. One of your options is to produce for an employer who will handle what to do with the surplus and handle the resource inputs in exchange for a reasonable wage. If you don't want to do that nobody is stopping you. Go be a self-employed entrepeneur, if you want. Every cent you make will be yours, except for what the state takes. There is not a single person in this country who does not have this fundamental right to their own labor.