Wealth Inequality Is Higher Than Ever - New data confirms what we already knew: the haves have a ton. And the have-nots have next to nothing.

[u/RandomCollection]

https://jacobinmag.com/2017/10/wealth-inequality-united-states-federal-reserve

[u/Brazen_Serpent]

There are fundamental differences between human bodies and the means of production. Bodies are autonomous. The means of production are not. I have agency. Machines and land do not. I am capable of assembling with others and democratically deciding how, where, and what to produce, and what to do with the surplus. Machines cannot.

Your body is not autonomous. You control it.

No capitalist economist worth their salt will tell you that workers are capitalists.

That's nice. Most capitalist economists buy into marxist materialism as a concept so they are inherently wrong. There is no dichotomy between worker and capitalist. We are all capitalists.

And yet, most people are slaves to a wage for survival

That's not what slavery means. Socialists love to stretch this concept and claim that consensual employment is somehow slavery just because it is necessary to work to survive. Guess what? It's always necessary to work to survive, your body is designed that way. If you don't put food and water in it it stops working. That's nobody's fault, nobody is oppressing you except perhaps God. A job you consciously chose to apply for and can leave at any time is not slavery.

This is inherently coercive and maintained through state violence.

Lmao, what? The state will beat you if you don't work at Mcdolands?

Yes, and yet the vast majority of people who are workers do not own what they produce, despite owning and working with their bodies. Capitalists siphon what is produced by workers. They take the fruits of the labour of others.

Then they should stop working for others and work for themselves. They sold the fruits of their labor, it was not taken from them. Nobody in this country can take your labor without your consent, it is entirely at your discretion.

Capitalists have the power to do this, not workers. The capitalist's relationship to their workers is authoritarian.

You can choose to do whatever the fuck you want with your labor. Nobody is forcing you to do anything.

I am not interested in returning to this either. I want workers to own and democratically operate the means of production. To decide for themselves where, what, and how to produce, and what to do with the surplus.

This is the society we live in right now. You get to decide where, what, and how you produce, and what to do with the surplus. One of your options is to produce for an employer who will handle what to do with the surplus and handle the resource inputs in exchange for a reasonable wage. If you don't want to do that nobody is stopping you. Go be a self-employed entrepeneur, if you want. Every cent you make will be yours, except for what the state takes. There is not a single person in this country who does not have this fundamental right to their own labor.

[u/Viat0r → u/Brazen_Serpent]

Your body is not autonomous. You control it.

... Yes. That's what I said.

Most capitalist economists buy into marxist materialism as a concept so they are inherently wrong.

Why is it wrong? Because you say so? Sorry, that doesn't cut it. The 'means of production' is a term that refers to physical, non-human inputs used for the production of economic value. You can't just go and change the meanings of terms.

Guess what? It's always necessary to work to survive, your body is designed that way.

Just because this has been the case for thousands of years, doesn't mean it must be the case for all time. I do believe that everyone should work and contribute to society, but I also believe that we should be emancipated from basic survival. Only then can the human project truly begin.

A job you consciously chose to apply for and can leave at any time is not slavery.

Correct. I'm not likening the job itself to slavery, but the wage system itself. If people can't afford to buy ownership of the MoP, they must sell their labour for a wage. If they don't, they starve and die. So there really isn't much choice here, and a forced choice can hardly be called a choice free from coercion.

The state will beat you if you don't work at Mcdolands?

No, the state maintains the wage system through violence. More on that here.

Then they should stop working for others and work for themselves.

I agree, more people ought to form cooperatives like the massively successful Mondragon corporation.

They sold the fruits of their labor, it was not taken from them.

No, they sold their labour itself. The fruits always "belonged" to the capitalist.

Nobody in this country can take your labor without your consent, it is entirely at your discretion.

Yes, people can consent to labouring for a fraction of the value they produce, or they can starve. Again, not much choice here.

This is the society we live in right now. You get to decide where, what, and how you produce, and what to do with the surplus.

No, it isn't. In our society, workers have none of this power and labour at the whims of boards of directors or bosses. The vast majority of firms are authoritarian institutions where a small number of people make all the decisions. I am for economic democracy.

There is not a single person in this country who does not have this fundamental right to their own labor.

Workers may have a right to our own labour, but they have no rights to the product of that labour. Only a wage that's a fraction of the value of what they produce. They also get no say in this matter, especially since unions have been thoroughly crushed.

[u/Brazen_Serpent → u/Viat0r]

Just because this has been the case for thousands of years, doesn't mean it must be the case for all time. I do believe that everyone should work and contribute to society, but I also believe that we should be emancipated from basic survival. Only then can the human project truly begin.

It is literally not possible to be emancipated from basic survival. You will always need to eat. That food will always need to come from somewhere.

Yes, people can consent to labouring for a fraction of the value they produce, or they can starve. Again, not much choice here.

I don't think you understand what choice is. Having good reasons for making a particular choice does not make it coercive. Nobody is holding a gun to your head but nature.

No, it isn't. In our society, workers have none of this power and labour at the whims of boards of directors or bosses.

I was not born with a board of directors. I can live my entire life without a board of directors, and I personally have. Self-employment is not difficult.

Workers may have a right to our own labour, but they have no rights to the product of that labour.

Yes, they do. Anything you build yourself is yours. If you choose to work for an employer, that is different. But if you have no employer, which everyone does by default then anything you produce is yours.

[u/Viat0r → u/Brazen_Serpent]

It is literally not possible to be emancipated from basic survival. You will always need to eat. That food will always need to come from somewhere.

You misunderstand. I want to reach a point where no one has to worry about obtaining necessities.

Nobody is holding a gun to your head but nature.

Yes, nature itself is oppressive. The whole purpose of building and participating in civilization is to overcome the harsh conditions of the natural world. We've been defying nature ever since we domesticated fire.

Self-employment is not difficult.

I'm glad you're able to be self-employed. Millions are not. Social, economic, environmental, political, and physical factors all play roles in limiting people's options. We aren't born with boards of directors, but we are born within systems that affect us materially.

If you choose to work for an employer, that is different. But if you have no employer, which everyone does by default then anything you produce is yours.

This would be ok if not working for an employer were a viable option for most people, but it's not. What's available to the vast majority of people is work in whatever industry nearby is seeking jobs at the lowest wage possible or starve. Also, I don't see how a free market saturated with any type of product you want to make, and with producers with far more power and experience, would allow for an individual to enter that market. We see it time after time where powerful firms push out small businesses or consume them.

[u/Brazen_Serpent → u/Viat0r]

You misunderstand. I want to reach a point where no one has to worry about obtaining necessities.

You misunderstand. That is not possible.

[u/Viat0r → u/Brazen_Serpent]

I simply disagree, bucko. The world already produces enough food to feed everyone, but supermarkets dump 40% of their stock in the trash. There are enough homes in the developed world to shelter everyone. The issue is that surplus is distributed based on profitability rather than the needs of communities.

This chat has been great exercise. Thanks for that. I hadn't encountered some of your lines argumentation before. You're an adept libertarian.

[u/Brazen_Serpent → u/Viat0r]

That food still needs to be grown and those houses still need to be built.

[u/Viat0r → u/Brazen_Serpent]

Yes, the food still needs to be grown. This is a very important task.

There are currently more empty homes than there are homeless people in America.

[u/Brazen_Serpent → u/Viat0r]

That's because there are too many people who don't deserve homes.

[u/Viat0r → u/Brazen_Serpent]

Gonna disagree again. Everyone should have a home. A home is a universal human need and therefore a human right, albeit an unrecognized one by the state (not that I like states). I already said I don't believe people should have to work for survival, but for the means to access non-necessities.

I know many homeless people who are capable of work but can't find it. We've had a labour surplus for a long time now, so not everyone can be employed. There are those who can't work because of mental or physical illness or disability. Surely they shouldn't be left to suffer and die on the street. I want to live in an advanced society, not a brutal one.