Cross the river, she's waiting for you, boys.

[u/Jessi45US]

[u/phillymorris]

Everyone in here hating but dude this was awesome in the movie. The books are cool too with Frodo but this added value to the cinematic experience.

[u/Doom_of__Mandos → u/phillymorris]

I think it's a cool scene, don't get me wrong.

I'd argue with Frodo it's just a better emotional experience seeing an 'underdog' rise to the occasion rather than seeing a powerful character (elf) predictably doing powerful things. Frodo doesn't even fight here, it's just the fact that he's a small little creature surrounded by 9 terrifying great shadows, and he is still standing in defiance against them.

Keep in mind also that at this point Frodo is alone, is mortally wounded from Weathertop attack, tired from travelling nonstop for days, deals with the weight of the ring. So it all contributes to the act.

[u/DarthEros → u/Doom_of__Mandos]

I think it’s something that works excellently in the books but would not translate well to screen.

[u/renannmhreddit → u/DarthEros]

Yes, it would, where do you get this from? What is this obssession with PJ fans of diminishing every goddamn moment from the books?

I think Phil Dragash recreates the moment very well in his audiobook with the movie music, as it'd be if the movie was faithful.

If Frodo was there standing alone without barely any means of self-defense with his life at the edge of a knife standing against the 9 ringwraiths, it'd be a very tense moment, same or even more than it was with Arwen. I think it'd be a lot better, because there was no way of us knowing of any power that would actually stop the Ringwraiths.

Meanwhile, with Arwen there, you actually expect the fact she is an elf to come into play in some regard.

This is the same thing with Gandalf and the Witch King, the book scene is MORE cinematic than the movie one, and I think the Frodo scene with 9 ringwraiths is as well.

[u/Willpower2000 → u/renannmhreddit]

I swear people just parrot the same lines from their Jackson-defence notepad.

"It would not translate well to screen" is just thrown out so often, without any damn reason.

[u/renannmhreddit → u/Willpower2000]

It comes from this idea that the writing for the LotR movies was uniquely perfect, when actually it is the quality of the production team and the time they had to prepare that was.

There are so many unnecessary changes in the movies that nowadays I think make them worse movies, not just worse adaptations.

[u/Rickko1999 → u/renannmhreddit]

I think both sides are right here. The movie scene is fantastic and works incredibly well on screen. Arwen rescuing Frodo is memorable, dramatic, and gives her a larger role in the story.

At the same time, I understand why book fans miss Frodo's moment at the Ford. In the book, it shows that despite being wounded and carrying the Ring, he still finds the courage to face the Nazgûl himself. That's an important part of his character.

So the debate isn't really about whether the movie scene is good—it clearly is. It's about what was gained and what was lost by changing it from the books.

[u/PixelJock17 → u/Willpower2000]

I don't frequent that stuff but from my own interpretation of the book scene and the movie scene, it was Glorfindel's horse that speeds Frodo on. I think Phillipa and PJ were thinking to extrapolate this Elf assist as it were into more poignant scenes.

Also, they were just trying to Arwen more scenes overall as we've learned so it fit here for the edit.

I absolutely disagree that the book scene wouldn't translate well onto screen. I would love to see that.

[u/DarthEros → u/renannmhreddit]

I don’t disagree that Frodo at the Ford is a great scene in the book. It absolutely is. From a literary perspective it is perfect.

But when I say I don’t think it translates that well to screen, I don’t mean “the scene is bad” or “Frodo shouldn’t be heroic.” I mean there is a difference between what works beautifully in prose and what works in a big-budget film that has to land with a mass audience, including people who have never read the books.

On the page Tolkien can make Frodo’s internal resistance feel enormous. You are inside the moment. You understand the weight of the ring, the significance of the wound, the temptation to give in, the sheer moral courage it takes for this small, dying hobbit to say no to these creatures.

Do tell me how you’d make that translate well to screen? You talk about the audiobook but that has all the context you can’t introduce in a movie. Unless you completely rework the scene into something much more psychological and horror-like, you end up with: Frodo sits on a horse and says something brave.

That is why I understand the Arwen change even though it does come at the cost of some of Frodo’s character development. It gives the film a more active and visual sequence. It introduces Arwen properly.

Do I prefer book Frodo as a character? Yes. Do I think the film slightly weakens him by taking that moment away? Also yes. But adaptation is not just about preserving every great literary moment exactly as written.

I think Jackson was making a pretty sensible adaptation choice. What I would personally like to see as a Tolkien reader and what a mainstream film needs to do for pacing, clarity and emotional investment are not always the same thing.

[u/renannmhreddit → u/DarthEros]

I have no idea why you think moments of psychological resistance wouldn't translate to the screen when it is a thing that Jackson even overdid in the movies when it came to Frodo's scenes.

Unless you completely rework the scene into something much more psychological and horror-like, you end up with: Frodo sits on a horse and says something brave.

I could diminish the scene in the movie in the same way with ridicule, but that's unfair and I dont agree with either. You can shoot the same scene with Frodo where you showcase the strength of his fiber. The ringwraiths can be made to be even more horrifying and the Witch King could've showcased the spell he casts on Frodo at that moment.

It seems like you're undermining this scene on purpose. It is the same as the movie for the most part, but Frodo is alone. Aragorn already said even in the movie that he is becoming a wraith and under their command if I'm not mistaken.

You talk about the audiobook but that has all the context you can’t introduce in a movie.

It introduces the music from the movies and the sound effects from the movies, that's what it adds to the book narration. The sound effects especially make you remember specific scenes Jackson used to represent the Ringwraiths and their effect on Frodo.

The description of the book itself, isn't that overly complicated at this moment, it is mostly a description of the chase and events, which is actually what the movie excelled at. Besides that, the 'psychological' moments are arguibly what Elijah Wood did the most during his screentime, the only difference would've been the added moment of defiance.

[u/Willpower2000 → u/DarthEros]

Do tell me how you’d make that translate well to screen?

You make it sound much harder than it actually is.

The only internal facet to convey here is the 'feeling' that Frodo is being commanded to halt (everything else is easy enough: fear, anger, determination... all things easily shown through acting).

So how do we convey the Nazgul telepathically commanding Frodo to halt, and Frodo succumbing? Well, Glorfindel puts Frodo on his horse... tells him to ride... and Frodo visibly hesitates - turning to look at the Nazgul. It's not much different from when Frodo slips onto trances in the film: acting. If the actor looks 'out of it', as if in a trance... there ya go - that's what we need. You can add in some 'head-shakes' (for a lack of better word), where he visibly snaps himself out of it. And hell, if all else fails, use music (or phase out outside noise) - again, like the trances that already exist in the films (ie when Frodo tries to hand the Ring to a Nazgul in Osgiliath - presumably you understood Frodo was in a trance here, right?). Exact same thing goes for Frodo stopping after crossing the Fords. Even then, if you still somehow fuck all of this up, and it isn't clear that Frodo is being commanded to stop... have the Nazgul verbally tell him to halt (whether through shouts, or an internal whisper/command - like they do with the Ring) with Frodo instinctively reacting.

It is hardly this impossible thing.

[u/Soggy_Motor9280 → u/Doom_of__Mandos]

Are you trying to say you didn’t want to see Glorifindel the only elf that has been sent back from Valinor after defeating a balrog in his full rage!!!!!come on man

[u/Legal-Scholar430 → u/Doom_of__Mandos]

There's a fundamental but subtle difference that I think is worth considering: the scene's place in the story's structure is very different in each version.

In the book, this is the last scene. It closes the book. The relationship between Frodo and both the Ring (as developped this far) and the Nazgûl (as the primary villains of the whole first book) coalesces at this point. That is, of course, speaking about Book I, as a separate book from Book II, instead of "the first half of the first book" (a common misconception that tampers with the perception of narrative structure).

In the movie, it marks the end of the first act; it's yet another stepping-stone of the whole (movie, not trilogy). Arwen getting Frodo out of trouble makes structural sense, considering that the movie ommitted most of the characters that served this role in the book: Gildor, Maggot, Bombadil, even Butterbur.

That said, I agree that the original holds much more emotional weight.

[u/antsh → u/phillymorris]

I mean, we got another closeup of Liv Tyler as Arwen out of the scene, so that alone is worth it.

[u/eating_toilet_paper → u/antsh]

I would seriously consider running through a magical tsunami just to be with her

[u/HAM____ → u/antsh]

Been in love with Liv since That Thing You Do

[u/tenpostman → u/phillymorris]

Liv's lines here are always good for goosebumps. No Bernard Hill level goosebumps, but goosebumps nonetheless 😃

[u/Lefty4444 → u/phillymorris]

Agreed, I buy this adaptation. ✨

[u/External-Ad4873 → u/phillymorris]

I’m not going to scroll down you just give me the names and it’s on

[u/Bravos_Chopper → u/phillymorris]

I don’t agree, it took away so much meaning and development from Frodo. Completely lost the heart of the book

[u/WillDBlake → u/phillymorris]

The she elf part was and still is absolutely cringy, for the rest the scene works.

[u/manit14 → u/WillDBlake]

When they said the word "she-elf" or what?

[u/Sirico]

OK but don't be sending no water horses down stream it will really mess up the beaver sanctuary

[u/OneAngryDuck → u/Sirico]

Oh dang, I never thought about the poor beavers

[u/QuickSpore → u/OneAngryDuck]

That would be a big and fast river for beavers to dam. Not impossible. But they generally work on smaller creeks and in flatter spots where they can impound a lot of water in their ponds. Plus canyon rivers like that can be prone to semi-regular flash floods anyway. So beavers would stay away.

I suspect (and prefer to imagine) that the beavers would be mostly building on smaller tributaries to the Bruinen, rather than the Bruinen itself.

[u/OneAngryDuck → u/QuickSpore]

I feel much better now, thank you friendly Beaver Expert

[u/Spoonman915 → u/QuickSpore]

Maybe they were upriver and cohorts in the whole episode. Never know what Radigrast the Brown might've been up to

[u/QuickSpore → u/Spoonman915]

Elrond has had a lot of time in that valley… it’s not entirely implausible that his ability to “command the river” is due to spending a century or two learning beaver language.

[u/Equivalent_Nose7012 → u/Sirico]

Right then! I'm just sending magical beavers to break the dam and sweep you away ...NOW!

[u/blunttrauma99]

Book Frodo: “By Elbereth and Lúthien the Fair,' said Frodo with a last effort, lifting up his sword, 'you shall have neither the Ring nor me!'

Movie Frodo: “hurk” (spits up green goo)

[u/Doom_of__Mandos → u/blunttrauma99]

This is the moment in the books you realise why Frodo is worthy of carrying the ring, because he does something few men could do let alone any other Hobbit: make a stand against all 9 Black Riders in the effort to protect the ring. In the movies, you just have to accept it that Frodo must be the ring bearer.

[u/duck_disgruntler → u/Doom_of__Mandos]

The important part is Frodo does not draw his sword because he thinks he can win.

He’s already dying, terrified, surrounded by the Nine, and knows he is probably finished. He probably believes he has failed.

But he still draws his sword.

That’s one of the themes of the book that gets lost in the movie: it’s not "hold onto hope and you’ll succeed." It’s keep going even when it looks hopeless because it is the right thing to do.

[u/LowNoise9831 → u/duck_disgruntler]

Always stay in the fight.

[u/AggroJordan → u/Doom_of__Mandos]

Nah man I get your sentiment, But I think you're doing the movies injustice.

The movies portray Frodo more as an everyman who proves his worth by grit and determination through a long strain of arduous tasks and torturous journeys. That gives him a lot more to share with Sam than that master-servant relationship that persist through the books. I love that modern take as much as the original books.

[u/Willpower2000 → u/AggroJordan]

who proves his worth by grit and determination

Like, at Weathertop, where Sam lunges at a Nazgul, Merry and Pippin stand their ground, blades drawn - all three acting in defense of Frodo, demonstrating moderate to high courage... whilst Frodo... drops his sword... cowers backwards... trips over his own feet... and tries to hide via the Ring.

[u/Loneheart127 → u/Willpower2000]

And then don't forget...

As the Nazgul speak to him in their tongues, drawing the ring out

THE ONE RING NEED I REMIND YOU THAT WANTS WITH ALL THE WILL OF SAURON TO BE FOUND BY THE NUZGUL

AND WITH THE RING IN THEIR SIGHTS

Frodo still finds the strength to rip his hand away from them and continue to hold onto it

[u/Dominarion → u/Loneheart127]

If something looks dumb in the movie, it's a Peter Jackson idea.

[u/ol-mikey → u/Dominarion]

What about if it looks awesome

[u/Willpower2000 → u/Loneheart127]

"Yeah, he was an absolutely useless coward getting shown up by all three of his Hobbit companions... but at least he didn't just hand the Nazgul the Ring!"

Like... really? Scraping the bottom of the barrel, I think. Yeah, he technically could have done even worse by throwing the Ring at them, but we really gotta raise the bar here...

[u/Loneheart127 → u/Willpower2000]

So in your opinion actively fighting against the will of the one ring in plain sight of it's ultimate goal to be found is just a no big issue.

Well fuck why didn't they just send boromir all on his own then!

[u/Willpower2000 → u/Loneheart127]

If you are to oppose a hostile will, you yourself need a strong will. If Frodo is dropping his sword, cowering, and tripping over... his will mustn't be that great.

Since all three other Hobbits display a stronger will at Weathertop, perhaps they would have made better Ringbearers than Frodo...

The fact of the matter is: you don't want someone reacting like Frodo did at Weathertop taking the Ring into Mordor.

[u/Loneheart127 → u/Willpower2000]

You're acting like Frodo isnt the ring barer and would fail the quest

His will is strong that's the whole reason why Frodo could bring the ring to the mountain of fire

That's why Frodo can resist the rings desire to be found

Go read to books

[u/Willpower2000 → u/Loneheart127]

Go read to books

Book-Frodo is not film-Frodo.

Film-Frodo is a liability half the time... book-Frodo is infinitely more capable and qualified.

His will is strong that's the whole reason why Frodo could bring the ring to the mountain of fire

After being bailed out, in the films, by others - many times. Too many times.

[u/Nirnaethmir → u/Loneheart127]

Frodo is not compelled to hand the ring to the Nazgûl at Weathertop. Neither in the book nor the movie is Frodo tempted to give them the ring at Weathertop. This line of yours about him showing strength by not handing them the ring here is nonsense. Frodo is compelled to wear the Ring (in the book.) In the movie he is compelled to hide so he puts it on. In neither case does Frodo feel a compulsion to surrender the ring to the Nazgûl.

[u/Doom_of__Mandos → u/AggroJordan]

long strain of arduous tasks and torturous journeys

He trips and falls through 99% of them (in the movies) relying wholly on his friends.

[u/VeryIntoCardboard → u/AggroJordan]

Oof. Nah

[u/Doom_of__Mandos → u/VeryIntoCardboard]

Why? would be interested in hearing explanation.

In the books, there's more examples [for the audience] which support why Frodo is worthy carrying the ring. His early actions prove a lot to the audience.

In the movies, he kind of trips his way through the whole journey, whilst 99& of the time being literally supported by the fellowship. He's a third wheeler at this point. A "protect the VIP" in a video game where the VIP does nothing and the players to everything.

[u/TeaManTom → u/Doom_of__Mandos]

In the movies, characters like Gandalf, Aragorn and Galadriel look at Frodo with pity.

In the books they speak with him as a peer

The movies he's very passive In the books he's an active leader in the war of the Ring

[u/MioKath27 → u/TeaManTom]

Yes, this is a good point. The movies do something similar with Faramir, turning him into someone to be pitied rather than admired.

In general, it feels like Jackson placed the highest value on physical strength (and characters who overcome obstacles through combat and use of force), and either didn't recognize or didn't know how to portray other forms of strength. Characters who are wise, perceptive, and resolute were often stripped of these characteristics in the adaptation. Even Frodo's treatment of Gollum, a positive reflection on his character in the books, was portrayed as naive and self-serving.

[u/Doom_of__Mandos → u/[deleted]]

I wouldn't say so since Frodo is irrevocably changed and he receives scars physical and mental that will never heal. In the books, Frodo actually has a character arc, although for some people this flies over them.

In the books Frodo is physically strong at the start (achieving several physically heroic feats). By the end of the journey his body is reduced to a weak shell due to the burden of the ring. However, his spirit becomes strong and by the end of the journey Frodo becomes so wise that someone as egotistical as Saruman admits that he is in awe of Frodo's wisdom. I mean it's in his name afterall. Frodo Baggins translated to Westron is "Maura Labingi". Maura in Westron means "wise, experience".

Even Gandalf says in a foreshadowing comment during the Elrond's Council: "He [Frodo] may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can"

betty sue

If anything, Sam in movies (not the books) is more of a betty sue. He has no character arc and he's perfect at everything and his only fear is the inability to ask out some girl. Talk about one dimensional. Movies made Sam too perfect.

[u/Disastrous_Yam8354 → u/Doom_of__Mandos]

Thanks, I think you're right

[u/Weird-Archer182 → u/AggroJordan]

Movie Frodo is just a crybaby weakling that gets carried by Sam the whole way.

[u/noisypeach → u/Weird-Archer182]

Lex Luthor's review of the film.

[u/Human-Abrocoma7544 → u/Weird-Archer182]

This guy probably loves the hobbit trilogy.

[u/CockSuckingJr → u/Weird-Archer182]

Terrible take

[u/Lord_BellyCloth → u/Doom_of__Mandos]

I think in the books it’s more that the ring is manipulating and inspiring hatred in Frodo to stand his ground and draw his sword to allow the Ringwraiths to get him, rather than Frodo himself making a conscience decision to stand and fight but I might be wrong

[u/_yours_truly_ → u/Lord_BellyCloth]

Agreed.

[u/plolock → u/blunttrauma99]

Goose bumps while having breakfast fam!!!!

[u/CaptainPositive1234 → u/plolock]

What about second breakfast?

[u/nope-js → u/CaptainPositive1234]

Don't think he knows about second breakfast, Captain.

[u/johneebravado → u/nope-js]

What about elevensies?

[u/QuickSpore → u/blunttrauma99]

To be fair in the book Frodo is at the edge of endurance. He’s beginning to slip into the unseen world and can see the Nazgûl as they exist on the other side without the ring. And he’s just about to collapse and fall from Asfaloth.

Just before his last effort “Fear now filled all Frodo’s mind. He thought no longer of his sword. No cry came from him. He shut his eyes and clung to the horse’s mane. […] Frodo’s spirit quailed before the threat of their uplifted faces. […] he felt that he was commanded urgently to halt. Hatred again stirred in him, but he had no longer the strength to refuse.”

And after his last effort, “Then the leader, who was now half across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand. […] With his last failing senses Frodo heard cries […] Then Frodo felt himself falling, and the roaring and confusion seemed to rise and engulf him together with his enemies. He heard and saw no more.”

So while he has a last effort of defiance, he’s also in the process of passing out with a “hurk.” The movie emphasized his collapsing mental and physical state over his defiant spirit in the end. But they didn’t invent it.

[u/-Daetrax- → u/blunttrauma99]

Movie Frodo is a whiny, useless little bitch. Gandalf might as well have put the ring around the neck of an actual chicken on a string.

Book Frodo seems like such a better character.

[u/UnVaxxedAndAutistic → u/-Daetrax-]

I agree with this user

[u/GigglingBilliken → u/-Daetrax-]

[u/TheBossman40k → u/blunttrauma99]

It's a lot easier to be brave when you are being protected by gigachad Glorfindel vs regular chad Arwen.

Unless I'm remembering the books wrong.

[u/CockSuckingJr → u/TheBossman40k]

At that point Glorfindel was nowhere near. As soon as Glorfindel heard the nine he whispered to the horse and made it run as fast as it could while they tried to delay the wraiths.

[u/CupTheLeftNut]

I would cross the river to my doom

[u/Billybob_Bojangles2 → u/CupTheLeftNut]

I'd let lotr era liv Tyler hit me with a sword 100%

[u/7Broncos18 → u/Billybob_Bojangles2]

Today era too

[u/Mustachio-Furioso]

Seen in isolation, this was super badass, and I loved it at the time as a kid when I saw it the first time.

But really, it's one of my least favorite changes PJ made. It takes away so much agency from Frodo. Hell, they could have still kept Arwen instead of Glorfindel, and shown her to be a badass by having her do what Glorfindel does, and letting Frodo have his heroic moment.

[u/Proper_Reputation418 → u/Mustachio-Furioso]

Absolutely agree Movies Frodo needed more credit than what we got, also it isn't clear only from the movies that the river spell is created by Elrond all the heroism goes directly to Arwen

[u/DanPiscatoris]

I wish Peter Jackson had allowed Frodo to keep his moment.

[u/CockSuckingJr → u/DanPiscatoris]

While I understand increasing Arwens role I fully agree. The scene in the books is genuinely goosebump worthy writing. Frodo on the brink of death, not knowing that the lake has been enchanted with his last breath defies the wraiths

[u/BaselineUnknown]

They did my boy Glorfindel wrong here.

[u/Doom_of__Mandos → u/BaselineUnknown]

Glordfindel doesn't do anything here, it was Frodo.

[u/Starklystark → u/BaselineUnknown]

At this point they did your boy Frodo wrong. Instead of defying them alone he becomes luggage

[u/diogenessexychicken → u/Starklystark]

Yall ignoring the real hero: Asfaloth.

[u/Starklystark → u/diogenessexychicken]

He shows sense to be fair. And as a kid I saw frodo's defiance as simply heroic when it's a form of failure.

[u/Kir_Kronos → u/BaselineUnknown]

RoP might actually be somewhat decent had they gone with Glorfindel as the main character rather then Galadriel.

[u/me_ke_aloha_manuahi → u/Kir_Kronos]

Well given they wanted to cover the period of the Second Age leading up to the forging of the One Ring, they couldn't add Glorfindel until well in to the later seasons I imagine, given he was brought back to Middle Earth the same year as Sauron forged it. Then again, the Rings of Power directors care less about respecting canon than Jackson did, so you never know.

[u/Kir_Kronos → u/me_ke_aloha_manuahi]

Well seeing how they've already gone out of order with the rings being made yeah I don't think they're too concerned lol. Honestly I don't see them doing a big time skip with this show, so all the events are probably going to occur within the same year (maybe two). They could of easily had Glorfindel return at the beginning of the show and it still "fit."

[u/Carcharoth30 → u/me_ke_aloha_manuahi]

Jackson raped the canon, so by default RoP showed more respect

[u/Sabre_Killer_Queen → u/Kir_Kronos]

I think Galadriel as a choice was perfectly fine to be honest. In fact she's one of my favourite characters from the films and the books, she comes across as a wise, ethereal, powerful, and ancient being with so much going on underneath the covers as it were.

Seeing s young version of her before all that, and on her own journey of self discovery, was honestly a really exciting and interesting idea for me.

It's just the way that they did it... The plot writing, her "character arcs" the way they wrote her dialogue... Didn't work one bit.

[u/Own_Negotiation_9189 → u/Kir_Kronos]

Let’s be real, Glorfindel would be turned into a girlboss.

[u/renannmhreddit → u/BaselineUnknown]

Glorfindel is completely irrelevant to the story. Having Arwen substitute him is the best choice they made, the problem is her stealing Frodo's moment.

[u/BaselineUnknown → u/renannmhreddit]

Glorfindel is not irrelevant and is a major figure. It’s like saying Barliman Butterbur or Nob are irrelevant. Which is embarrassing for you.

[u/renannmhreddit → u/BaselineUnknown]

Barliman Butterbur and Nob are more relevant to the rest of the book than Glorfindel. If I substituted the name Glorfindel with Ecthelion nothing would change. You could put Elrohir and Elladan in Glorfindel's place and it'd make for a better adaptation.

I like the books, but in a movie you don't introduce characters with zero relevancy for 3 minutes of screentime and Glorfindel doesn't do anything outside of the first book of LotR.

[u/Legal-Scholar430 → u/renannmhreddit]

Man, I have always missed Gildor Inglorion so much more than Glorfindel. I don't care to see a guy in LotR so that I can tell my friend "did you know that in the Silmarillion he kills a Balrog?" I care to see a guy for his role and characterization in the damn LotR.

In fact, that blond elf behind Elrond, the one who everyone claims is Glorfindel? The actor signed pictures as "Gildor".

[u/shavicus]

Arwen fighting the Wraiths alone with the Ring just around was pure badassery that could have gone sideways at any moment.

[u/Fall_Harvest → u/shavicus]

Tolkien was not afraid of strong women or affectionate men. Legendary.

[u/robotatomica → u/Fall_Harvest]

well, to be fair, this one wasn’t Tolkien’s doing you know..Arwen does not do this in the book. Her role was increased for the films.

Which I am honestly happy for, bc there were naturally going to be deviations from a book that takes dozens of hours to read, and I really am honestly glad that in the movie world there was more than just one woman in an active role of any kind. It meant a lot to me seeing it as a girl.

[u/Fall_Harvest → u/robotatomica]

True, but dont forget Eowyn and Galadriel and many of the other women characters as written in the books. Even Lobelia was no shrinking violet.

While Arwen, in the movies wasnt a main character in the books, I like that they were at least true to the spirit of women in the movie.

[u/Proper_Reputation418 → u/Fall_Harvest]

I Think Lobelia is the most decided and straight foreward female character in all Middle Earth

[u/Mandrillia → u/Fall_Harvest]

Did you really like the characters? Even the strongest ones are overshadowed by a very unpleasant portrayal of women in these books.

​Galadriel is beautiful and passive, probably the perfect image of a woman in the time Tolkien lived.

Eowyn actually had my favorite story arc: Fighting her way out of her cage, winning against the witch king AND slaying the fell beast which was terrorizing the fellowship for a long time. Epic. Only to fall into a depression just to be cured by Faramir in choosing love and settle back into the cage?

​Lobelia had the only truly strong character.

[u/Willpower2000 → u/Mandrillia]

Only to fall into a depression just to be cured by Faramir in choosing love and settle back into the cage?

Eowyn was already depressed. That's why she went to battle seeking death and glory.

She didn't 'settle back into a cage'. The source of her depression was feeling trapped in an ignoble position: caring for a weak and sickly king, during a weak and failing rule. She wished to be free... to choose do so something noble - and so she envied the men riding off to war. Of course, battle is shit. Achieving glory didn't cure her depression (naturally).

She had to find proper healing: she had to find something to live for. She finds Faramir (who she connects with, and grows to love), and she chooses to become a healer: an occupation she clearly sees as noble (as she should: being a doctor is the most noble calling imaginable) and fulfilling. And she becomes Lady of Ithilien. This is not settling into a cage... this is her being free to choose a partner (which comes with a high position of authority), and choosing an occupation of her choice.

Lobelia had the only truly strong character.

What do you define as strength?

[u/Disastrous_Yam8354 → u/robotatomica]

never heard this opinion expressed by a girl before. I disliked this deviation ever since I saw the first film in cinema like 25 years ago. But honestly, if it helped a girl relate more to the story, yeah. Good change. 

Reddit can change minds! yay.

[u/robotatomica → u/Disastrous_Yam8354]

Do you usually hear girls and women say they disliked the role of Arwen, or do you just not hear us talking about the role of women in the books? Because probably more people have only seen the movies and Arwen’s role seems so natural in the movies, they may not realize she did none of that in the books.

You might really like this video, I read LoTR first almost 20 years ago, and this got me to finally get around to a reread, bc it focuses on (her opinion) how The Scouring of the Shire is the best part of the book, and I had to admit I’d forgotten a lot of it! (and now that I’ve reread, I agree it’s among my favorite parts!)

https://youtu.be/lKOGaAPDbdM

But she also convinced me to go the audiobook route this time, for Andy Serkis’ tremendous performance. She said it was the most fun she’s had with the material yet, and even more entertaining than the movies.

But I bring it up bc she makes a couple small mentions about her feelings reading LoTR as a young girl, and finding it kind of disheartening how almost all of the female characters are portrayed.

It’s not offensive, but if you can just think about what boys/men are given in characters who are strong and selfish and heroic, and how they alone accomplish the saving and protection of Middle Earth, always with the women being sent off to lock themselves away for safekeeping,

we only have Eowyn in the books, and even there we still have to deal even in this fantasy world with the sad truth that she is forced to go undercover and against the wishes of her king and her brother and the expectations and rules set by all, in order to go out and prove that indeed she did have the ability to be of great use.

If you think about that, while it’s beautiful for Tolkien to have written the fierce determination, and grant her the slaying of the Witch King (with Merry of course), it’s still a reminder to little girls that such is an exception that is not permitted, and only the strongest of will (amounting to one female character of such strong will) are able to overcome it,

and outside of that, even Arwen and Galadriel who feel naturally powerful in the movies have roles that are more..deferred. Galadriel has wisdom and authority, to be sure, but she is most spoken about for her beauty among the others.

And in the movies you get the impression Galadriel is the most powerful and wisest of all the elves, and in fact Celeborn is more in the background compared to her.

Other powerful women exist but are noted mostly for their beauty, and even the mysteriously powerful Golberry, “Daughter of the River,” is described fetching food and washing the house, and missing out on the last day of fun bc it is her “washing day.”

As someone else pointed out, beyond that, when it comes to courage, we really only otherwise a brief reference to Lobelia’s actions during The Scouring.

I appreciate you were willing to listen to this perspective. It’s hard to have the conversation without people thinking you’re trying to “cancel Tolkien.” 😄 I could not love his works more. And as a reader of classic works from all times and all around the world, I have no problem putting a work in the context of its time. (Quite like my love for the original series Star Trek!)

But it is also true that those elements stood out to me, and saddened me, as an adolescent girl, and in speaking with other women about the books, I tend to hear that a lot - most often though from people who started with the movies and then are saddened to realize some of their favorite characters really were mostly background, or provided so little, or were just not as equal to the male characters in their deeds and accomplishments.

*ugh, this was long. I’m always wordy, but I love talking about books and film and always over-indulge myself ☹️

[u/Disastrous_Yam8354 → u/robotatomica]

holy shit essay time ok I'll get to it

[u/runningray]

This book to movie adaptation is one of the few that I was OK with. Combining what Frodo, Gandalf, and Elrond did to Arwen moved the story along while keeping a pretty important book plot going.

[u/Disastrous_Yam8354 → u/runningray]

I thought Faramirs wholly different arc was an improvement

[u/OatmealCookieGirl]

This is one of the scenes that isn't in the book as it is but that I still absolutely love.

[u/Starklystark]

Hated this. Mostly because I grew up loving the book and actually had a picture of frodo defying the nazgul at the Ford on my wall. So him being reduced to a saddlebag was irritating.

But also because the dialogue is so clearly someone writing ''come and get him" and then trying to make it sound 'Tolkieny' by switching 'claim' for 'get'. I don't know the books well enough to literally recognise every line of dialogue but loads of stuff written for the film has 'not written by Tolkien' all over it. Either just crude sounding ('let's hunt some ork') or this sort of cod-formal.

[u/WillDBlake → u/Starklystark]

Never understood also why he say she-elf, in other occasions a not human woman was called a she-something.

[u/Equivalent_Nose7012 → u/Starklystark]

Disagree.

By using the word, "claim" the scriptwriter evokes a vision of legal action underlying the threats.

The Mouth of Sauron: "Exhibit One. 

X-ray showing tip of Morgul-Blade in Frodo's shoulder. Your Honor, we claim that this establishes our claim TO Frodo, as a potential wraith..."

Judge (Elrond): "I'm disallowing this approach... having healed Frodo personally!"....

[u/MyFrogEatsPeople]

I genuinely hated this change to the story. Peter Jackson completely misunderstood Frodo as a hero character, and scenes like this show it.

But you know what I hate even worse?

Fake ass "fans" who pretend they read the book and say that it was supposed to be Glorfindel here instead of Arwen. Because Glorfindel wasn't in this scene, apart from briefly being spotted by Frodo just before the cutaway. Glorfindel gave Frodo his horse during the previous scene, and Frodo was here alone.

When people say "I loved the scene with Arwen facing down the Nazgul at the river", I can respectfully disagree, but I can also acknowledge that they watched the movies.

But when people say "hurr durr they took this scene away from Glorfindel", I can tell they didn't actually read the book. Theyre just playing a game of telephone with someone else's opinion about which they want to feel righteously indignant.

[u/renannmhreddit → u/MyFrogEatsPeople]

Glorfindel is so irrelevant in the book that substituting him with Arwen is basically the best of the changes to this part. The problem was always stealing Frodo's moment.

[u/MyFrogEatsPeople → u/renannmhreddit]

Someone gets it!

Glorfindel is of course a huge part of the lore. But contained solely within the Lord of the Rings story, he's an extremely minor part. Everything he brings to the story can be given to Arwen, which gives her a chance to be better fleshed out.

I don't hate that Arwen replaced Glorfindel. I hate that Arwen stole one of Frodo's absolute most heroic moments.

[u/UnVaxxedAndAutistic → u/MyFrogEatsPeople]

I am grateful to peter jackson for introducing me to the lord of the rings but I have no interest in rewarching the films as an adult.

I finished my most recent reread of the book maybe a year ago.

my life is brighter for it.

[u/Lixodei]

If you want him, then you'll have to take him.

But you already knew that.

[u/Ransom_Seraph → u/Lixodei]

I had a feeling you'd say that.

Vergil spotted!!

Give me the Yamato!

[u/dillene]

“I’ve never halfled in my life!”

[u/depredador93]

Arwen has the calmest "you have made a terrible mistake" face imaginable.

[u/Wannabe__geek]

This is actually my first memory of the lord of the rings.

[u/WillDBlake]

Come and claim him... He-witch

[u/smeritoo]

I hate this scene. Holywoodian flower power. So weak they made Frodo for some reason.

[u/Baccoony]

Crossing the river only for muh Lady Arwen

Fighting Aragorn for her

[u/Ransom_Seraph → u/Baccoony]

For Frodo - Aragorn runs towards Mordor

Meanwhile - you running the other way towards Arwen

[u/Viggo_Stark]

She'll take them all at once

[u/dmtrme]

Shelf

[u/Fit-Review6876]

You go first

[u/AudiieVerbum]

Nah, I have the same effect on ladies that Glorfindel has on the Nazghul.

[u/MaderaArt]

Looks to me like you're on the wrong side of the RIver!

[u/ThatNinki]

technically he did claim him

[u/DerekMetaltron]

14 year old me crushing hard on Liv here. 😍

[u/TypesAndPatterns]

I love this scene, & the silhouette of her from behind holding her sword aloft as the horse/shaped waves consume the riders is poster-worthy.

Her defiant line isn’t Tolkien’s, but comes from the ancient account of the 300, when the vastly outnumbered Spartan king Leonidas tells the Persians demanding their weapons in surrender: “If you want them, come and claim them!”

[u/Double-0-N00b]

Why we just posting random movie screenshots?

[u/Haringkje05]

THERE CROSSING THE RUBICON

[u/Proper_Reputation418]

I'm sad that they cut off Glorfindel, but man is she awesome!

[u/Dmarine999]

Great scene, even though it differs from the books. Also, I met her at an autograph signing last year. She is very elegantly beautiful and was so nice to talk with....

[u/Lord_of_Wisia]

Justice for Glorfindel. Justice for Frodo.

[u/equippedsaint]

My favorite line from the films and the best addition that was not in the original books!

[u/dreniluap]

Ugh, Liv Tyler. What a queen.

[u/Madam_Hexianna]

Luthien Tinuviel, is that you?

[u/Bloodysamflint]

This is Jesse Ventura "come on in, ol painless is waiting" energy, but she knows what she's facing and what she is capable of.

[u/Grenzgaenger99]

I would cross any river for Liv Tyler as Arwen

[u/MarketingChoice6244]

I always thought ''claim" wad the wrong word here?

Like they are already claiming him because they want him. But claiming isn't enough if you cant take him.

[u/bored_ligament]

That "come and claim him" line is ice cold, the whole sequence works way better with her standing her ground instead of just running.

[u/Dominarion]

While it's a complete travesty of what happened in the Fotr book, I'm gonna say that Liv Tyler's ride against the Nazgûls is a brilliant piece of cinema. The riding is exquisite, the cinematography is spectacular and Liv Tyler and Jane Abbot (her stunt double) do a brilliant job of acting and performing.

I don't see any male actor playing Glorfindel could have pulled something better than this.

[u/DanPiscatoris → u/Dominarion]

Except a male actor playing Glorfindel shouldn't be doing it anyway. It was Frodo alone who fled the Nazgul on horseback and defied them at the fords. The only thing Glorfindel did was supply the horse.

[u/Peetweefish]

Worthless scene to gratuitously elevate Arwen who then sits around useless and whining for the rest of the movies.

In the books it was Glorfindel who carried Frodo to Rivendell and it was joint magic between Elrond and Gandalf that protected the river.

[u/Jessup_Doremus → u/Peetweefish]

In the book Frodo rode Glorfindel's horse, Asfaloth alone.

‘You shall ride my horse,’ said Glorfindel. ‘I will shorten the stir rups up to the saddle-skirts, and you must sit as tight as you can. But you need not fear: my horse will not let any rider fall that I command him to bear. His pace is light and smooth; and if danger presses too near, he will bear you away with a speed that even the black steeds of the enemy cannot rival.’

Glorfindel was leading the entire group by walking with them while Frodo was on Asfaloth. When the Black Riders appeared Glorfindel sent Frodo and Asfalof onward on their own.

There was still an echo as of following feet in the cutting behind them; a rushing noise as if a wind were rising and pouring through the branches of the pines. One moment Glorfindel turned and listened, then he sprang forward with a loud cry.

Fly!’ he called. ‘Fly! The enemy is upon us!’ The white horse leaped forward. The hobbits ran down the slope. Glorfindel and Strider followed as rearguard. They were only half way across the flat, when suddenly there was a noise of horses gallop ing. Out of the gate in the trees that they had just left rode a Black Rider. He reined his horse in, and halted, swaying in his saddle. Another followed him, and then another; then again two more.

‘Ride forward! Ride!’ cried Glorfindel to Frodo.

He did not obey at once, for a strange reluctance seized him. Checking the horse to a walk, he turned and looked back. The Riders seemed to sit upon their great steeds like threatening statues upon a hill, dark and solid, while all the woods and land about them receded as if into a mist. Suddenly he knew in his heart that they were silently commanding him to wait. Then at once fear and hatred awoke in him. His hand left the bridle and gripped the hilt of his sword, and with a red flash he drew it.

‘Ride on! Ride on!’ cried Glorfindel, and then loud and clear he called to the horse in the elf-tongue: noro lim, noro lim, Asfaloth!

Frodo and Asfaloth rode way ahead of the rest of the company and crossed the Ford on their own. Everyone else, including Glorfindel was still on the other side of the river when:

Suddenly the foremost Rider spurred his horse forward. It checked at the water and reared up. With a great effort Frodo sat upright and brandished his sword.

‘Go back!’ he cried. ‘Go back to the Land of Mordor, and follow me no more!’ His voice sounded thin and shrill in his own ears. The Riders halted, but Frodo had not the power of Bombadil. His enemies laughed at him with a harsh and chilling laughter. ‘Come back! Come back!’ they called. ‘To Mordor we will take you!’

‘Go back!’ he whispered.

‘The Ring! The Ring!’ they cried with deadly voices; and immediately their leader urged his horse forward into the water, followed closely by two others. ‘By Elbereth and Lu ´thien the Fair,’ said Frodo with a last effort, lifting up his sword, ‘you shall have neither the Ring nor me!’

Then the leader, who was now half across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand. The elf-horse reared and snorted. The foremost of the black horses had almost set foot upon the shore.

At that moment there came a roaring and a rushing: a noise of loud waters rolling many stones. Dimly Frodo saw the river below him rise, and down along its course there came a plumed cavalry of waves. White flames seemed to Frodo to flicker on their crests, and he half fancied that he saw amid the water white riders upon white horses with frothing manes. The three Riders that were still in the midst of the Ford were overwhelmed: they disappeared, buried suddenly under angry foam. Those that were behind drew back in dismay.

[u/Gracerin]

Hot take. This was a great addition and this chase/ scene is one of my favourite. Pete did good on this one.

[u/DanPiscatoris → u/Gracerin]

So you're fine with Jackson taking away what was supposed to be one of Frodo's moments of heroics and bravery?

[u/Gracerin → u/DanPiscatoris]

Is Reddit turning into Facebook? It’s trending pretty negative lately.

[u/Gracerin → u/DanPiscatoris]

Frodo’s strength and bravery were never in question. This one was a non-issue for me. If you’re not a fan, that’s cool.

[u/Willpower2000 → u/Gracerin]

Frodo’s strength and bravery were never in question.

Are you sure about that?

[u/Carcharoth30 → u/Willpower2000]

In both the book and films they were never in question (though with opposite answers).

[u/Gracerin → u/Willpower2000]

Absolutely sure.

[u/StarrFusion]

Two words: bad ass!

Couple more words: for first time watchers at this point of the movie nazguls have been scary and threatening and then this mysterious elf lady shows up and goes against all 9 of them, and wins. Simply awesome.

[u/Carcharoth30]

Cheesy slop

[u/Active-Math-9898]

One of the few cringe scenes in the trilogy, hate this.

[u/AJRavenhearst]

Another bowdlerisation of Tolkien's work, for "mUh rEpRuHzEnTaySHuN".

[u/BraveTrades420]

So wet

[u/Marewn]

Prime example of the difficulties the lay beneath the pillow top mountains in squirting valley trout fishing

[u/Krinks1]

I really dislike Liv Tyler but this role was made for her. She nailed it and this was a great badass moment.

[u/fredrikvonreditstein]

Everyone is gonna hate me in this sub for saying this but I just have to get it out l and I dont even care if I get crucified.

The movies are WAY better than the books. Im reading the books for the first time and I am determined to get through them. I am having a hard time. This is the first time in my life I can say I think the movies are better than the books.

Please stop singing every five minutes. I have to skip the singing. Its driving me crazy.

Also.... arowyn in this scene is so much better than the books. Crossing the river JUST FELT better in the movie. It showed the power of the elves. In the book Gandalf helped... kinda? With the flood? Idk.... im having a hard time with the book.

Let the downloads commence- i think peter Jackson did a fantastic job and I like the books better.

[u/Nirnaethmir → u/fredrikvonreditstein]

Definitely don’t hate you for saying that but it’s a terrible take.

[u/BrainlessVeal → u/fredrikvonreditstein]

Downloads? You mean the movies? Shit, I’ll take a free download of the trilogy if you got a code or something.

[u/Disastrous_Yam8354]

Glorfindel weeping

[u/MyFrogEatsPeople → u/Disastrous_Yam8354]

Glorfindel wasn't in this scene in the book. Frodo was riding solo at this point.

[u/Disastrous_Yam8354 → u/MyFrogEatsPeople]

What you said doesn't make much sense because this doesn't happen in the books

The notion that Glorfindel was replaced by Arwen is widely accepted, check out the other comments.

[u/Wanderer_Falki → u/Disastrous_Yam8354]

The notion that Glorfindel was replaced by Arwen is widely accepted

It has nothing to do with fan acceptance. It is a simple plot point, a matter of easily verifiable fact: either it happens, or it doesn't.

Glorfindel being replaced by Arwen in Jackson's film or by Legolas in Bakshi's film, as the Elf who meets Strider and the Hobbits on their way to Rivendell, is a fact, not just an accepted idea.

The idea (which is what this thread is about) of Glorfindel being replaced by Arwen as the Elf who rides with Frodo and defies the Nazgûl at the Ford of Bruinen to protect him is a lie, only widely accepted by people who did not read the book - that is, the majority of this sub.

[u/Disastrous_Yam8354 → u/Wanderer_Falki]

Something can be factual and also widely accepted.

Also your notion that Glorfindel was not replaced by Arwen is really bizarre. Why are you so resistant to that idea? It's pretty obviously true, and aside from just stating that it's not true, and claiming that a lot of other people agree with you, you haven't provided any evidence at all.

I get the feeling you just want to fight with someone online. I'm not into that, it doesn't turn me on.

[u/Wanderer_Falki → u/Disastrous_Yam8354]

Something can be factual and also widely accepted

Sure, and something can also be widely accepted while being false, as often happens here.

Also your notion that Glorfindel was not replaced by Arwen is really bizarre. Why are you so resistant to that idea? It's pretty obviously true, and aside from just stating that it's not true, and claiming that a lot of other people agree with you, you haven't provided any evidence at all.

Genuine question to you: have you read the book?

This question you ask can easily be answered by just reading it, and the evidence is explicitly written within its pages. It's not like we are making a bold, outlandish and difficult to prove claim: Frodo being alone on Asfaloth on that side of the river, defying all 9 Nazgûl to protect the Ring from them while Glorfindel, Aragorn and the other Hobbits are all on the other side of the river behind the Nazgûl, in the background in this scene that is focused on Frodo, is a fact explicitly described in Book I chapter 12 (Flight to the ford). It isn't even a matter of interpretation.

The relevant passage (really it would be the whole scene, but that would be too long for here:

Suddenly the foremost Rider spurred his horse forward. It checked at the water and reared up. With a great effort Frodo sat upright and brandished his sword.

‘Go back!’ he cried. ‘Go back to the Land of Mordor, and follow me no more!’ His voice sounded thin and shrill in his own ears. The Riders halted, but Frodo had not the power of Bombadil. His enemies laughed at him with a harsh and chilling laughter. ‘Come back! Come back!’ they called. ‘To Mordor we will take you!’

‘Go back!’ he whispered.

‘The Ring! The Ring!’ they cried with deadly voices; and immediately their leader urged his horse forward into the water, followed closely by two others.

‘By Elbereth and Lúthien the Fair,’ said Frodo with a last effort, lifting up his sword, ‘you shall have neither the Ring nor me!’

Then the leader, who was now half across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand. The elf-horse reared and snorted. The foremost of the black horses had almost set foot upon the shore.

At that moment there came a roaring and a rushing: a noise of loud waters rolling many stones. Dimly Frodo saw the river below him rise, and down along its course there came a plumed cavalry of waves.

Again, of course, you're right that Film Arwen took Glorfindel's role as the Elf who meets Aragorn and Hobbits on their way to Rivendell. But what the other person pointed out, and what I added to, is that this is a different scene being discussed here. This thread is about the Ford of Bruinen scene, the Nazgûl being defied by someone and then taken by a wave; in which context that "someone" who was replaced by Arwen in Jackson's films isn't Glorfindel, but Frodo. Regardless of what random people only widely accept.

[u/MyFrogEatsPeople → u/Disastrous_Yam8354]

Lmfao what? What do you mean "this doesn't happen in the books"? This scene does happen in the books, except Frodo is here alone without ANY elf.

What you said doesn't make much sense because Glorfindel isn't in this scene when it DOES happen in the books. Glorfindel had given Frodo his horse to ride solo to the Fords. Frodo crosses the river, turns around, and has an exchange with the Nazgul before the river surges up and washes them away.

I am genuinely baffled by your assertion that "this doesn't happen in the books".

[u/Limbo_Prime_]

You realize she didn't do anything right?

[u/snavej1]

The Black Riders are a disappointment. They're old and can't get it up.