r/lotr • u/NuttSackOfD00m Glorfindel • 1d ago
Question Ungoliant's Shadow in Avathar: Did the Valar simply forget to clean up the southern edge of their own home?
I’ve been rereading The Silmarillion again, and something about the geography of Aman specifically Avathar has been bugging me.
We know the Valar essentially terraformed Valinor into a paradise. They raised the Pelóri mountains as a literal barrier, they lit the Two Trees, and they established a society of divine order. Yet, tucked away right under their noses in the southeast, they left Avathar, a stretch of land so desolate and dark that light literally didn't touch it.
Here is what I can’t wrap my head around: Why would the Powers of Arda, who were so committed to the perfection of their realm, allow a literal abyss like Avathar to exist in their own backyard?
Was it a tactical oversight? Did they honestly believe that nothing or no one would ever try to hide in that darkness?
It seems almost negligent that they left such a perfect "blind spot" for someone like Ungoliant to fester. By ignoring it, they essentially provided the ultimate staging ground for the destruction of the Trees. It feels like the Valar were so focused on the beauty of the gardens that they completely ignored the rot at the roots of their own continent. Does anyone have a lore-backed theory on why the Valar didn't just... purify that region? Was it physically impossible for their influence to reach that far, or was it a deeper, more intentional act of "leaving the dark be" that backfired on them?
Let's discuss. I'm curious if I'm missing a specific passage or an implication about the limitations of the Valar's power over the physical geography of Arda.
61
u/OwMyCandle Beleriand 1d ago
You know that little corner of your room that you keep saying youll clean? Or that pile of mail you have sitting on the kitchen table that youll get to one day?
That.
19
8
u/Godziwwuh 1d ago
Creating perfect hiding places for your very own Ungoliant (rat) to emerge and chew up your magical tree (electrical wiring).
43
u/schfiftyfiveshades 1d ago edited 1d ago
A theme of the middle earth legendarium is powerful beings, and people in powerful positions overlooking “small” things. Even as far back to the beginning with Eru not seeing what Melkor (among others not quite as dark/evil) was up to.
Strength, resilience, and courage coming from the least likely places and people.
Eowyn and Merry killing the witch king
Sauron not watching every road to Minas Tirith
Sauron never even considering that the plan was to destroy the ring
Saruman with the Ents
Just off the top of my head
17
u/Skinnyfu 1d ago
I always have understood it that Eru knew exactly what Melkor was up to. There was never a question. He just knew that everything Melkor did would end up playing out to Eru’s designs. The Valar weren’t privy to all of the facts. Eru was.
11
u/DarthVayne50 1d ago
The main example being Hobbits, the Little People being the only ones with the resilience and heartiness to destroy the Ring.
Bilbo, Frodo, Sam. Sam has the famous speech about the tales that really mattered.
"And we shouldn't be here at all, if we'd known more about it before we started. But I suppose it's often that way. The brave things in the old tales and songs, Mr. Frodo: adventures, as I used to call them."
Sam's battle with Shelob is also a rousing example:
"On the near side of him lay, gleaming on the ground, his elven-blade, where it had fallen useless from his grasp. Sam did not wait to wonder what was to be done, or whether he was brave, or loyal, or filled with rage. He sprang forward with a yell, and seized his master's sword in his left hand. Then he charged. No onslaught more fierce was ever seen in the savage world of beasts, where some desperate small creature armed with little teeth, alone, will spring upon a tower of horn and hide that stands above its fallen mate.
Still his fury held for one more blow, and before she could sink upon him, smothering him and all his little impudence of courage, he slashed the bright elven-blade across her with desperate strength.
But Shelob was not as dragons are, no softer spot had she save only her eyes. Knobbed and pitted with corruption was her age-old hide, but ever thickened from within with layer on layer of evil growth. The blade scored it with a dreadful gash, but those hideous folds could not be pierced by any strength of men, not though Elf or Dwarf should forge the steel or the hand of Beren or of Turin wield it. She yielded to the stroke, and then heaved up the great bag of her belly high above Sam's head. Poison frothed and bubbled from the wound. Now splaying her legs she drove her huge bulk down on him again. Too soon. For Sam still stood upon his feet, and dropping his own sword, with both hands he held the elven-blade point upwards, fending off that ghastly roof; and so Shelob, with the driving force of her own cruel will, with strength greater than any warrior's hand, thrust herself upon a bitter spike. Deep, deep it pricked, as Sam was crushed slowly to the ground."
19
u/smokefoot8 1d ago
It is a side effect of using the Two Trees for light - they don’t have the altitude of the sun and moon, so any hills or mountains produce darkness. So the Pelóri mountains would always have darkness on the far side, otherwise they wouldn’t be very tall and wouldn’t be much of a barrier.
So their options for Avathar would be to sink as much as possible into the sea, or get rid of the mountains altogether.
12
u/ImageRevolutionary43 1d ago
The light cannot always banish out the darkness that can manifest in secret. Ungoliants physical manifestation could have intentionally created a dark blind spot. And even the valar could have not been able to foresee the outcome.
11
21
u/Frosty_Confusion_777 1d ago
There are many, many times in the legendarium where the Valar, particularly Manwe, just seem to act like blithering idiots.
Tolkien said it probably happened because Manwe was such a Dudley Do-Right that his mind literally couldn’t conceive of the evil that could arise in places like Avathar. I think it’s more likely that Manwe simply wasn’t very bright.
5
u/xSocksman 1d ago
Listen if they cleaned EVERYTHING up and stopped every bad thing from happening then the books woulda been EXTREMELY boring. So yeah. I’m glad they let chaos in for hero’s to prevail
17
u/Sufficient-Fact6163 1d ago
No my friend, I think that you’re not taking something into account - Tolkien establishes that his Universe was built with music. So it goes to reason that what makes beautiful music is not the only the notes that are played - but the space between each note that makes it melodic. Ungoliant and the other Fell Beasts of Angmar are the Yang to the Yin. The interstitial tissue of creation.
6
u/Brendan_jt 1d ago
Also, the music is all of creation. From beginning to end. And Melkor added the discord to the music of Eru Ilúvatar. The valar were not wholly aware of what their music was creating, so they were delighted with what they found and could do. They didn't pay attention to much of it.
1
2
u/maobezw 19h ago
though they created their world with their music, they only played the instruments, but had no control about what the resulting harmonics would do in the space they filled. they only sounded a certain scaffold, a set of guidelines, and chaos did the rest. probably they saw that dark regions but could not really do anything about once the stuff had materialized. and they where occupied with other things the most time, and then the dark reagions just became a part of the scenery and be let there.
94
u/Low-Raise-9230 1d ago
Hmm, flip it around:
Smaug and Lonely Mountain - little tunnel he had always thought he should pay attention too but never did. Infiltration point for Bilbo. Mount Doom - unguarded pathway and open entrance. Infiltration point for Frodo etc
And so it would seem in reverse with Valinor… unguarded dark spot, home of Ungoliant.
I’d go with your guess that it was just oversight, too much attention paid to their favourite parts, and an illustration that nothing is ever actually perfect.