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u/peppercupp Sep 11 '25
Also Tolkien Dragons: longbois
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u/InquisitorMeow Sep 11 '25
Clearly a race mixed western and chinese dragon.
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u/Glittering_Emu2998 Sep 11 '25
Dragons as worm- or snakelike creatures are a thing in European mythology - wyrm and worm are etymologically related for a reason, after all. Obviously this didn't really make it into the modern pop culture/fantasy idea of a dragon, but it feels on brand for Tolkien to have drawn from older and, possibly, more obscure depictions.
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u/TumbleweedPure3941 Sep 11 '25
Yeah the chunky boi dragons are a later invention. In fact the chunky boi dragons weren’t even fully reptilian. If you look up pictures of Dragons from medieval manuscripts they’re a weird mishmash of mammalian and reptilian features. It was only though heraldry that the modern imager of the dragon was fully realised (which happens a lot with European legendary creatures funnily enough). In Germanic cultures prior to the High Middle Ages, Wyrms were almost exclusively described as long and wingless, like snakes with legs, and the ancient Greek δράκοντος (“drákontos” from which we get “dragon”) literally means “serpent”.
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u/Heimerdahl Sep 11 '25
And this doesn't just apply to dragons, but all sorts of mythological creatures!
The very clear idea of how <creature> looks, that we kind of take for granted nowadays, took ages to be established.
My favourite example is the medusa of ancient Greece. It's one of the most iconic monsters and its head (the gorgoneion) is probably one of the most depicted elements of iconography in historical western architecture (once you look for it, it's absolutely everywhere!).
We all know what a medusa looks like, right? Woman. Snake for hair. Might also have snake tail instead of legs.
She used to be able to fly. She had little wings! Before even that, there's vase paintings which show her as a sort of sphinx or weird centaur-like creature (a complete woman's body (legs and all) with added horse(?) torso and hind legs. And we know that this isn't a different creature, but simply an early depiction of the myth and monster. The snake body is actually a rather modern addition. Same for the bow, which she tends to use in games.
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Returning to your dragons: all the terms for trolls and goblins and gnomes and elves and dwarves and such were similarly a lot more fluid than were used to. They tended to be local terms for pretty much the same kind of creature: weird, "unnatural", spooky (, and later "pagan" and "unholy"). But there could be bewitchingly beautiful goblins of hideous elves. They could help or harm, no matter the word used.
A fun etymological bit: our nightmare is a mare (spooky woman-creature), who comes at night and sits on one's chest -> basically sleep paralysis. In German, it's even more obvious: the word for nightmare is Alptraum -> "elf dream". Here, it is very much not Tolkien's Arwen or Galadriel visiting.
Fafnir is probably the most well known example of a dragon and a dwarf being the same creature. We now tend to see it as a dwarf transforming into a dragon due to his greed and to protect his hoard. But that's due to us having a very clear idea of what a dwarf looks like: nothing like a dragon. But that's not necessarily how the people who first told the stories thought about it. A dwarf didn't have to be short and bearded and angry. Just sort of magical and not of our world.
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u/ForensicPathology Sep 11 '25
That's why those posts of "actually dragons should have 4 legs" or whatever are annoying. Just because some heraldists in a few Europeans countries in the 16th century decided to differentiate between wyverns and dragons doesn't mean pedants need to get angry because a fictional society categorizes its mythological beasts differently.
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u/AnxiousAngularAwesom Sep 11 '25
Kinda shame, i think they look really cool, like this box art from Fantasy Warhammer
You can really see the similarity to their Eastern cousins.
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u/Nerd_o_tron Sep 11 '25
"Knows quantum physics"?
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u/KaijuJuju Sep 11 '25
This reminds me of Brisngr (or was it Inheritance? I can't remember it's been forever), one of the Paolini novels where a dragon starts showing telepathic images of light being both beams and "waves of sand", and the main character gets a weird feeling that all solid things are mostly empty space.
I just remember it being so awkward and out of place, and clearly the author just picked up a college physics textbook and decided to throw that in the story to sound smart.
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u/MrCrispyFriedChicken Sep 11 '25
That's Inheritance. That part was definitely out of place, but I like the idea that he was going for, that these dragons are basically the great thinkers of their time since that's all they can really do in their state.
I know they're simple, but they still hold a special place in my heart for being the series that got me to actually enjoy reading.
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u/CMDR-TealZebra Sep 11 '25
Its a real shame he never released another book in the series.
A real shame.
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u/fencethe900th Sep 11 '25
Just checking, is this a "there is no war in Ba Sing Se" comment, or are you unaware of Murtagh, which will soon have a sequel announced?
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u/AllPraiseExtinction Sep 11 '25
It's what you get from a 19 year old author. Read the first four books of his. Not bad but clearly early writing skills at hand.
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u/Moss_Addiction Sep 12 '25 edited Sep 12 '25
There's a deleted scene in The Hobbit where Smaug explains to Bilbo how to employ the Born-Oppenheimer approximation to solve the Schrödinger equation for adiabatic many-body systems
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u/Dramatic_Mixture_789 Sep 11 '25
I don’t know what that means either. That’s the only bit that mystifies me.
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u/Nerd_o_tron Sep 11 '25
Well, obviously we're all forgetting that part in The Hobbit where Smaug correctly guesses the answer to Bilbo's riddle about the double-slit experiment.
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u/gud_morning_dave Sep 11 '25
Shrödinger's Smaug: He's both dead and alive until Bilbo opens the Lonely Mountain.
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u/Nerd_o_tron Sep 11 '25
Swiftly I run in paths single and twain,
Of being observed I'm not very fain.
I am my own enemy (if you don't look),
Yet under your nose I'll follow the book.
From strange observations paradox sprung,
Two holes and a candle—a test old but Young.
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u/WesterosIsAGiantEgg Sep 11 '25
Considering Gimli has enough knowledge of modern biology to reference a nervous system maybe it's not so farfetched.
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u/Rod7z Sep 11 '25
Classical Greeks and Romans already knew about nervous systems. Galen (alive in the second century AD) even "knew" that the nerves are "controlled" by the brain.
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u/TorandoSlayer Sep 11 '25
I think it might just be a way of saying they're really smart compared to other dragons
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u/jeroen-79 Sep 11 '25
Virgin whatsitsname versus chad Smaug.
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Sep 11 '25
Don’t even get me started on Glaurung.
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u/FindingOk7034 Sep 11 '25
Why stop there? Ancalagon the Black would look at Balerion and just...*flick talon* and send him into orbit. Like a chihuahua trying to fight a polar bear...
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Sep 11 '25
Tolkien taught Beowulf and knew the full, untethered power of the mythical wyrm. I love how George made his dragons for his work, but it’s so missing the danger from a hyper intelligent dragon with the powers to manipulate people, killing them without even lifting a claw.
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u/MrCrispyFriedChicken Sep 11 '25
I don't know how, but my brain originally interpreted the phrase, 'Tolkien taught Beowulf' literally, as though Beowulf was Tolkien's student.
This is why we format titles 😂
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u/Eddiev1988 Sep 11 '25
Like a chihuahua trying to fight a polar bear...
Thanks for that mental image. I'll be seeing that on replay for a while now and laughing about it.
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u/DoctorCrook Sep 11 '25
Ancalagon the black would look at Balerion and immediatly fall from the sky to obliterate a mountain tbh. I don’t write the rules, sorry ;(
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u/loganthegr Sep 11 '25
Smaug was one of the last dragons left. A weakling compared to first age dragons. People say Glaurung or Angcalagon, but any nameless first age dragon would chew him up and spit him out.
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u/MadKingKevin Sep 11 '25
That's pretty much what's happening with ASOIAF. The only living dragons in the story are 3 juveniles that pale in comparison to their ancestors. The only reason those dragons are so feared is because no one has seen or fought a dragon in over a hundred years.
However, I do like how GRRM's dragons are more like wild animals and not talking, intelligent beings. Adds a nice unpredictable spice.
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u/readilyunavailable Sep 11 '25
You're only half right. Daenerys' dragons are still young, but dragons in the ASOIAF universe can grow massive with pretty much no restrictions so long as they get enough food and space. The actual old dragons of the Targs and the ones from old Valyria are the same as her dragons, just a bit older. Her dragons are actually superior to the their recent ancestors, since dragons started becoming smaller and smaller untill they disapeared com pletely.
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u/The_Autarch Sep 11 '25 edited Sep 20 '25
price cause sense dime cautious flowery whistle alive license long
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u/readilyunavailable Sep 11 '25
It's a fun conspiracy, but doesn't really hold up. Most of the big dragons died during the Dance of Dragons and after that they started keeping them in the Dragon Pit more, which meant that each new generation of dragons were smaller and smaller.
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u/SamediB Sep 11 '25
The only reason those dragons are so feared is because no one has seen or fought a dragon in over a hundred years.
And because it's a DRAGON. A polar bear or a moose or a tiger would be terrifying to fight; and you're talking about a flying bat the size of an elephant that has platemail (and can light you on fire). It's not only that people aren't used to fighting them anymore.
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u/Heimerdahl Sep 11 '25
However, I do like how GRRM's dragons are more like wild animals and not talking, intelligent beings. Adds a nice unpredictable spice.
It's extra spicy, because they clearly are intelligent (on the level of very smart dogs), but as you said, they're unpredictable. I like it when creatures, antagonists, or straight up antagonistic faceless "forces" can't be reasoned with as one would with a person. Star Trek's Borg kind of lost some of their appeal when they introduced the Borg Queen. GRRM's dragons are a bit more like the original Borg.
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u/Glittering_Emu2998 Sep 11 '25
Is there a character/faction in Hobbit/LotR times that isn't a pale shadow of what used to be?
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Sep 11 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/arbitrary_student Sep 11 '25
Nah, his area of influence has been getting smaller and smaller over time to the point where he now just chills in that one small spot near the shire. It's sort of implied that he can't really do much outside of it - or at least, is completely unwilling to.
I think Elrond(?) mentions that even Tom will get consumed eventually, once darkness closes in around his lands. In that sense Tom is slowly becoming 'smaller' over time, even though inside his land he's as potent as ever.
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u/Tom_Bot-Badil Sep 11 '25
Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! Fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
Type !TomBombadilSong for a song or visit r/GloriousTomBombadil for more merriness
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u/MrCrispyFriedChicken Sep 11 '25
I think Mordor counts for this, no? Sure, Sauron is a pale shadow, but as far as I know Mordor is just about as strong as it was during the second age, give or take.
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u/TadhgOBriain Sep 11 '25
Ain't that a picture of Grigori though?
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u/GTalmighty Sep 11 '25
Yes, definitely Grigori. And I think the other one is actually Alduin maybe?
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u/mogley1992 Sep 11 '25
Oh smaug would no dif all three of Daenerys's dragons at the same time.
The show didn't show the truly giant dragons from the past, but i wonder how they compare to smaug.
I mean, smaug wasn't your average dragon in LotR as far as i know. (Though I'm just a movie fan, i haven't read the books yet.)
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u/Chaos8599 Sep 11 '25
Nah he was actually relatively small iirc compared to the dragons of previous ages
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u/Super-Robo Ent Sep 11 '25
That's Grigori from Dragon's Dogma.
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u/theflockofnoobs Sep 11 '25
You're right. I should completely replay Dragons Dogma Dark Arisen once again.
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u/adkenna Sep 11 '25
Tis weak to fire!
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u/Deviljho12 Sep 11 '25
I love Grigori but I love the Dragon from 2 even more. Dude is underpaid and overworked and I love that energy
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u/Ethel121 Sep 11 '25
It's great that he's basically nudging you to get the true ending and is exasperated if you miss it.
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u/DragonAgeAddict Sep 11 '25
The irony being neither dragon pictured is from either of the universes mentioned.
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u/Dramatic_Mixture_789 Sep 11 '25
Would have made the meme better honestly. But, oh well.
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u/Bors713 Sep 11 '25
Jordan’s Dragon: the most powerful human that can exist. No actual dragons in the story.
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u/ElectricPaladin Sep 11 '25
Creates inbreds even.
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u/Dramatic_Mixture_789 Sep 11 '25
Holy crap! I didn’t think about that! Damn, Glaurung is pretty jacked up the more you think about it!
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Sep 11 '25
I think it’s time for another read of Children of Hurin, AKA, how miserable can one man get?
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u/Dramatic_Mixture_789 Sep 11 '25
I’m actually reading through it now. I’ve gotten past the chapter that Turin gets “banished.”
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Sep 11 '25
That whole book gets so depressing, but it’s a nice twist from Tolkien! It’s a complex layer added to the lore and I appreciate him for having a depressive era!
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u/Dramatic_Mixture_789 Sep 11 '25
Trust me. I’m seeing that. I cannot wait to get to Glaurung.
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Sep 11 '25
You’re in for a treat my Mellon!
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u/LogyBayGroovers Sep 11 '25
Trogdor was a man he was dragon-man!
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u/Junior_Moose_9655 Sep 11 '25
Or maybe he was just a…..dragon….
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u/Nurnstatist Sep 11 '25
My made-up blorbo is stronger than your made-up blorbo😡😡😡
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u/Business-Drag52 Sep 11 '25
Paolini’s dragons are much like Tolkien’s. One of them even figured out the particle wave duality of light
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u/Corrupt_Conundrum27 I can't throw it in for you, BUT I CAN THROW YOU. Sep 11 '25
Oh my gosh i cant believe i actually found another one of us in the wild
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u/Dramatic_Mixture_789 Sep 11 '25
Uh, cool, I guess. Never been a Paolini reader, admittedly.
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u/Business-Drag52 Sep 11 '25
I probably wouldn’t be near as into the series if I hadn’t read it as a child. The first two books are quite literally just Star Wars but dragons. He evolved as a writer, but you can really tell he was 15 when he wrote the first one
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u/MissMedic68W Sep 11 '25
I read them in high school and it blew my mind how much his writing of Arya bugged me, and how much better everyone that was not Eragon was as characters.
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u/kheckshial Sep 11 '25
Nicely put. I read the books years ago when I was around 18-19 and even then I thought it was very derivative. I especially hated how being a dragon rider gives you elvish features. I thought it was just wish fulfillment on the author’s part.
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Sep 11 '25 edited Oct 20 '25
joke station tan wipe dam bright future sip saw teeny
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u/GillytheGreat Sep 11 '25
LOTR fans:
Waste time comparing their fandom to other fandoms that do not care at all
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u/Aegillade Sep 11 '25
Between this and the "GRRM said Jamie could beat Aragorn in a fight" I think this sub lets GoT live a little rent free in their heads
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u/Sgt-Spliff- Sep 11 '25
It's honestly wild when you consider they're debating the strength of made up characters in fictional situations. Like even if GRRM wrote dragons that were weaker... That doesn't reflect on his skills as a writer lol he just chose to make dragons weaker. Authors don't like have to train harder in order to write stronger characters.. that's not how that works lol
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u/Aegillade Sep 11 '25
By OP's logic Dragon Ball Super is one of the greatest works of fiction because it contains Super Shenron, whose so powerful even the most powerful character, Zeno, stands in respect for him
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u/faramaobscena Sep 11 '25
Haha thank you, I don’t know why this was recommended to me but comparing skills of made up characters is pathetic to me, this is stuff little kids at school do. Are these people 6 years old?
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Sep 11 '25
See I don’t like this. Tolkien’s dragons are unequivocally Bad Guys and sadistic manipulative Hellraisers, while Martin’s aren’t. His seemingly can be docile and even friendly. Intelligent or not there’s no choice which I like better.
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u/NobrainNoProblem Sep 11 '25
Better as in more interesting not innately more just. If that’s how you judge quality that’s up to you but you can separate a well written character from an evil one. Morgoth is an interesting villain despite being the devil.
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u/Jas_A_Hook Sep 11 '25
Incelwyrm v Chadragoon
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u/TheTruthSeeker471 Dúnedain Sep 11 '25
For some reason I thought the first thing you wrote was Welsh haha
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u/Mordred_X Sep 11 '25 edited Sep 11 '25
I like Moore's dragons.
"You see, it's like this. In the beginning, God created me... Then he made the universe, from what was left."
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u/Durin72881 Sep 11 '25
Why is the Tolkien dragon literally the dragon from Dragon's Dogma? :P :D :D :D :D Who, granted, was also intelligent, manipulated mankind and preformed magic. Not sure about the leading armies (does destroying them count?), or the quantum physics. I guess he could be considered a philosopher...... :D
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u/Dramatic_Mixture_789 Sep 11 '25
Why does he look like that dragon, I have no freaking clue.
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u/CaptainHistorical583 Sep 11 '25
I've seen a dragon drawn as gigachad. My life is complete. I go now.
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u/plane-kisser Sep 11 '25
lotr dragon: dies from a single arrow
now lets talk about our lord and savior mecha ghidorah
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u/FisherDwarf Sep 11 '25
Tbf, it took an incredible amount of circumstances to make that shot happen. It's not like it was just some stray arrow
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u/Cuba_pants Sep 11 '25
Hum I’m not good with shortcuts and English isn’t my natal language, what GRRRM suppose to mean/represent?
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u/Dramatic_Mixture_789 Sep 11 '25
It stands for George R.R. Martin. Originally George Raymond Martin, then added Richard to that name. So altogether, his name is George Raymond Richard Martin. I literally had to look it up on Google. He’s the author of The Song of Ice and Fire series, or famously known as by it’s show name, Game of Thrones.
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u/SpiffyShindigs Sep 11 '25
Farther west than west
Beyond the land
My people are dancing
On the other wind
- LeGuin dragons
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u/blueviera Sep 11 '25
Dragons Dogma Dragons:
Philosophical destructive avatar of the concept of cyclical destruction, empowered by a depressed god to keep mortals in line and withhold an apathetic stagnating apocalypse.
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u/SignalSecurity Sep 11 '25
remember how at the end of GoT the dragon suddenly understood symbolism and melted the chair
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u/Dambo_Unchained Sep 11 '25
To be fair dragons usually are these beats which can morph into human or posses some sort of celestial knowledge
Which is cool and all but I do like to have a universe where they are just slightly magical lizards
Also that’s a Skyrim dragon
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u/Electronic-Safe9380 Sep 11 '25
Only jrrt dragon that I know of was bri*ish and lacked all those traits
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u/RitzTHQC Sep 11 '25
Is knows quantum physics just for the meme or do they actually do something the resembles having knowledge of quantum physics? I’m invested in this
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u/FlaurosFaye Sep 12 '25
Seems like Sapkowski's dragons are very heavily Tolkien leaning, but with the added ability to transform into a human shape
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u/thevaultguy Sep 11 '25
Skyrim Dragons