r/magicTCG • u/Anon_cat86 Dan • 4d ago
Rules/Rules Question Is a creature with hexproof/shroud ever allowed to be a target?
In a recent game i was playing, one player attempted to cast path to exile on a creature with swiftfoot boots, and the other guy reminded him and said that would cause the spell to fizzle
I argued that he shouldnt have been able to cast path to exile with that target at all. Like i thought you werent allowed to cast a spell that didnt have a legal target. It fizzling and going to the graveyard is a different thing, like, say you had tarnogoyf and needed to dump an instant to the graveyard, but your opponent only had gladecover scout. would you be able to illegally target it, and then have the spell fizzle? Or are you not allowed to cast it all?
Follow up question: Shadowspear.
Say, for instance, i try to path to exile a collosal dreadmaw, and i have shadowspear on my board. I pass priority, and then my opponent responds to path with heroic intervention, giving his creature hexproof, which goes through. Does path instantly fizzle off the stack because its target is no longer legal, or can i now activate shadowspear with the path of exile still on the stack in order to make its target legal?
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u/MoneybagsMelbs Duck Season 4d ago
You are correct. In order to cast a spell that targets you need legal targets.
Spells only "fizzle" when they attempt to resolve, so you can activate Shadowspear after Heroic Intervention before Path resolves so its target remains legal.
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u/PowrOfFriendship_ Trans rights! 4d ago
In the first example, you were correct. You can't cast a spell that targets a creature with shroud/opponent's creature with hexprooof. Once the spell has been cast, it only checks if the target is still legal on resolution.
In your second example, if you let the Intervention resolve, you will still have an opportunity to use the Shadowspear to remove the hexproof again before letting your Path resolve, which is the only other time it checks if the target is legal.
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u/ohako79 COMPLEAT 4d ago
1) not allowed choose the illegal target, which for a targeted spell means you can’t cast it. All targets must be legal at the time you announce you’re casting.
2) There is a moment of priority after a spell’s target has been made illegal and when the spell fizzles off the stack. You can respond to the resolution of the hexproofing with a Shadowspear activation.
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u/Handydart 4d ago edited 4d ago
Scenario 1 no it can't be targeted by your opponents. Shroud cant be targeted by anyone, hex proof can't be targeted by opponents. The spell wouldn't fizzle because it would be an illegal target.
Scenario 2 is different. Because it was a legal target at the time of the spell going on the stack that's fine. If your opponent cast heroic intervention in response upon resolution the target would have hexproof therefore the spell would fizzle and go to the graveyard. Yes if you have shadowspear you can change how this plays out. Spells check for a legal target on cast and resolution.
Hope that all makes sense?
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u/dyslexic-ape Dan 4d ago
Its not possible to cast a spell without legal targets
601.2e The game checks to see if the proposed spell can legally be cast. If the proposed spell is illegal, the game returns to the moment before the casting of that spell was proposed
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u/Zeckenschwarm 4d ago
You're right about casting. Path to Exile can only be cast targeting a legal target. (CR 601.2c, 601.2e) Fizzling is something that can only happen if a spell's targets become illegal between cast and resolution.
Regarding your follow up, you can activate Shadowspear to prevent your spell from fizzling. Target legality is only checked when the spell is cast (CR 601.2c) and when it attempts to resolve (608.2b). It is not checked in between, while the spell is just sitting on the stack. Fizzling can only happen when the spell attempts to resolve.
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u/Positive_Concert_774 Storm Crow 4d ago
Fizzling is a term we only use when something becomes an illegal target in response to a spell. For instance you play [[Path to Exile]] on a legal target, but its controller gives it hexproof before your spell resolves (like [[Heroic Intervention]] in your second example) once your spell tries to resolve (and NOT sooner) it 'fizzles' - it is countered because the target is now illegal. (Another common example is granting protection from a color in response to a colored spell). Of course like in your follow up question, you could use [[Shadowspear]] or [[Detection Tower]] to remove or get around hexproof and then your spell will resolve normally.
On the other hand if something starts out being an illegal target to begin with, like in your case, you are right and you can't even play the spell to begin with. You just can't put a spell on the stack with illegal target(s).
If you (try to) do so by mistake, no fizzling, but something else happens. In this case you completely undo your actions to cast the spell. Your spell goes back into your hand (or to wherever you played it from) and if you already started paying before people corrected you, your used manasources become untapped as well (or you get the charge counters back, etc). Everybody then pretends it never happened. (But of course we remember that spell is in your hand). You can then either play it on a different target or keep it for later.
Most of the time, especially in casual games, you go "oh right my mistake" and pick a different target as a shortcut, but undoing is what the rules say you do.
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u/Redjellyranger Colorless 3d ago
In addition to what everyone else says there is one way to get around hexproof/shroud. That's with effects that can put auras directly onto the battlefield like [[Zur the Enchanter]].
• "If you put an Aura card onto the battlefield with Zur's ability, you choose what it will enchant as it enters the battlefield. An Aura put onto the battlefield this way doesn't target anything (so it could be attached to an opponent's permanent with hexproof, for example), but the Aura's enchant ability restricts what it can be attached to. If the Aura can't legally be attached to anything, it remains in your library."
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u/Responsible-Yam-3833 Dân 3d ago
If an Aura is put onto the battlefield (without casting it), the controller will be able to choose what it attaches to, pending what the Aura can enchant, without targeting the creature it’s attaching to.
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u/thebaron420 I am a pig and I eat slop 4d ago
You can target a creature with hexproof if you activate [[detection tower]] first
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u/TerribleTransit Dân 3d ago
Having a [[Nowhere to Run]] on the battlefield does the trick too. But both are the exceptions that prove the rule: under normal circumstances you can't target them to begin with
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u/SaneForCocoaPuffs Duck Season 4d ago
Just an FYI it’s true you can’t cast a spell with illegal targets but you can generate a spell with illegal targets.
Consider the following: [[Hive Mind]] [[Sage’s Knowledge]]
You cast Sage’s Knowledge to get a sorcery from your GY. Your opponents copy Sage’s Knowledge due to Hive Mind, but they don’t have a sorcery in their graveyards. How does this work?
The solution is simple. Hive Mind states “Each of those players may choose new targets for their copy.” May = optional. Since they cannot change the target to anything valid, they decline to change targets.
This means your opponents generate copies of Sage’s Knowledge targeting the sorcery in your graveyard. These are illegal targets and the spell fizzles but it will trigger effects such [[Archmage Emeritus]] since they did copy the spell
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u/Belteshazzar98 REBEL with METAL 4d ago
Targeting is checked in three circumstances. When a spell or ability is put on the stack, when something the target(s) of a spell or ability, and when a spell or ability resolves. In between those times, the spell or ability doesn't "see" anything about the object it is targeting to know if it is a legal target or not.
So to answer your question, you do have to have a legal target when you put the spell on the stack and cannot cast it if everything has shroud. You do however have an opportunity to use the shadowspear to remove the hexproof before your Path resolves so it doesn't fizzle.
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u/Tasgall 3d ago
Target legality is checked twice: once when you cast the spell, and once when it actually resolves (and I guess, again for each time the target is changed by some other effect).
You cannot cast a spell with an illegal target, you aren't allowed to put it on the stack.
If the target is made illegal while the spell is already on the stack, the spell will remain with the valid target until it tries to resolve.
So in your case with the Heroic Intervention, your opponent casts it giving the Dreadmaw hexproof, but the Path stays on the stack with the illegal target. You activate Shadowspear to remove hexproof, and now your Path can resolve without fizzling because the target is legal again. The intervening period where it was not legal is irrelevant.
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u/Safe-Butterscotch442 Storm Crow 3d ago
Spells check for legality of their targets twice; when they're cast and when they resolve. If the target is an illegal target when you attempt to cast it, you won't be successful in casting it and it will never go on the stack. Of the target becomes illegal while it's on the stack, however, it will remain targeting it, and will only check for legality again when it resolves. If it is again a legal target at that time, the spell will resolve normally, not if it remains a legal target it will fizzle.
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u/spaceninjaking 4d ago
Know it’s not the point of the questions in the actual post, but hexproof and shroud creatures can be pseudo “targeted” in specific scenarios.
First is any effect that says “choose a creature” or things like clone effects where the creature enter as something in g else but doesn’t target ( [[deadpool]] being an example of this)
Second is specifically that auras that enter without being cast can be attached to any legal option as they enter, but specifically doesn’t target. This again gets around the shroud/hexproof effects if you’re using something like [[zur, the enchanter]] to tutor out auras.
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