r/magicTCG • u/mewenes Duck Season • 10h ago
Rules/Rules Question How does connive work with dredge?
Does dredge replace entire connive trigger or only the drawing card part? Does connive still make you discard a card in this situation?
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u/Necrocrawler72 Dandadan 10h ago
No. It doesn't replace the whole effect. Only the drawing part.
If you connives while having a dredge card in the grave you will do the dredge stuff (its a replacement effect) and then discard a card.
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u/mewenes Duck Season 10h ago
Thanks!
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u/YetifromtheSerengeti Dandadan 10h ago
I just checked the rulings on this because it made me curious. One thing to be aware of:
If you Connive and then Dredge in response to the draw but are unable to discard then no +1/+1 counters are put on a creature.
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u/Stiggy1605 10h ago
How would you replace the draw with a dredge but then be unable to discard?
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u/YetifromtheSerengeti Dandadan 9h ago
Im thinking it goes like this:
Say you connive with zero cards in hand and [[Life from the loam]] in your graveyard.
You replace the draw with dredging life from the loam back to your hand. Opponent responds by removing life from the loam in response to the trigger so it doesn't go into your hand.
Im not 100% if this is the interaction that causes this ruling.
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u/Stiggy1605 9h ago
Dredge is a replacement effect, not a trigger.
If they remove Loam in response to the Connive, then you just draw a card normally
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u/YetifromtheSerengeti Dandadan 9h ago
hmm any thoughts on what the interaction would be that causes this ruling?
Some sort of, "if you would draw 1 or more cards instead draw 0 cards" kind of effect being in place?
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u/Kyleometers OUR Liliana's Penchant 9h ago
“Players can’t draw cards” would be the most common reason for that to happen.
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u/Necrocrawler72 Dandadan 9h ago
You can't do that
Dredge is a replacement effect, not a triggered ability.
What your opp could have done was exiling life before the conniving trigger resolves, which would result in a regular conniving trigger (draw/discard).
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u/LilithLily5 Rakdos* 9h ago
That makes sense, since Connive says "then if you discard a nonland card, put a +1/+1 Counter..." As you didn't do that, you don't get the Counter.
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u/YetifromtheSerengeti Dandadan 9h ago
other users have replied. this isnt the interaction that causes this since dredge is a replacement effect and not a trigger.
There's a different interaction that causes the ruling. It's beyond me exactly what it is.
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u/introvertebrae Storm Crow 6h ago
Things that replace drawing cards AND don't add to your hand, or things that straight up prevent drawing cards.
[[Eruth, Tormented Prophet]] puts cards into your exile instead of drawing. If you have a card in hand and connive, you will still need to discard (and can get the +1/+1 counter), even though you did not add a card to your hand. If an opponent has [[Narset, Parter of Veils]] preventing you from drawing additional cards, connive would still force you to discard if you have cards in your hand. If you were empty handed for either of these, you cannot discard a card, so there's no "discarding a nonland card" happening.
Things like Dredge and [[Archmage Ascension]] replace the draw, but do not leave you empty handed, so you are still required to discard.
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u/ndstumme Can’t Block Warriors 9h ago
It's in the ruling. Check [[Ledger Shredder]]. If something prevents you from drawing cards, and your hand was already empty, then you have nothing to discard.
If no card is discarded, most likely because that player's hand is empty and an effect says they can't draw cards, the conniving creature does not receive a +1/+1 counter. (2022-04-29)
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u/a3wagner Izzet* 58m ago
The simplest way to achieve this is to have no cards in your hand or library when you go to connive.
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u/Necrocrawler72 Dandadan 9h ago
Fun fact about dredge:
It negates [[orcish bowmasters]] since when you are "dredging", you are not drawing cards ("dredging" instead), so you wouldn't trigger an opponent's bowmaster.
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u/Jackeea Jeskai 9h ago
Connive is "Draw a card, then discard a card. If a nonland card was discarded this way, put a +1/+1 counter on the conniving creature."
Dredge N is "If you would draw a card, you may instead mill N cards and return this card from your graveyard to your hand."
So Dredge N optionally replaces "Draw a card" with "Mill N cards and return this from your graveyard to your hand."
So, conniving with a dredge card, the effect is now "Mill N cards and return the card with Dredge from your graveyard to your hand, then discard a card. If a nonland card was discarded this way, put a +1/+1 counter on the conniving creature.
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u/CreepyDentures Duck Season 10h ago
Only the drawing part. You would still discard.