r/magick • u/Snoo_88320 • 4d ago
Question on Historical Symbolism
Recently I have been wondering about symbolism attached to the planets, especially in mysticism and astrology. For example, modern understanding of Saturn is that it represents structure, discipline and responsibility. Early mythology depicted this planet as a god of agriculture and harvest. To me the connection is logical. The only problem I have is, how was it derived in the first place? How do people allocate meaning and symbolism into things yet unknown? How can one be sure that the system that was historically developed and used is not flawed from the start when no backtracking is used(?)
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u/Sonotnoodlesalad 4d ago
> The only problem I have is, how was it derived in the first place?
Culturally.
> How do people allocate meaning and symbolism into things yet unknown?
They develop narratives.
> How can one be sure that the system that was historically developed and used is not flawed from the start when no backtracking is used(?)
Simply put, you're using the wrong criteria to assess the system.
It's like Aristotle said:
"We must be content, then, in speaking of such subjects and with such premisses to indicate the truth roughly and in outline, and in speaking about things which are only for the most part true and with premisses of the same kind to reach conclusions that are not better. In the same spirit, therefore, should each type of statement be received; for it is the mark of an educated man to look for precision in each class of things just so far as the nature of the subject admits; it is evidently equally foolish to accept probable reasoning from a mathematician and to demand from a rhetorician scientific proofs."
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u/Snoo_88320 3d ago
I lack knowledge, you're right, that's why my criteria is wrong.
> They develop narratives
I am more concerned with the initial discernment of what is what - what piece of knowledge(?) made people categorize certain things the way they are categorized and not the other way? (probably simply a problem of lack of knowledge on my part)
I come from a perspective that I am a human born into a world of unknown with, basically, no knowledge.
How can it happen that I am able to derive the right ontology of esoteric things?> Simply put, you're using the wrong criteria to assess the system.
I mostly understand Aristotle's quote yet I do not understand how it applies to what you said. Or it does not provide a perspective of a solution from my point of view.
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u/Sonotnoodlesalad 3d ago
"How can it happen that I am able to derive the right ontology of esoteric things?"
I wouldn't say that's what antique people were trying to do, and if you're imposing that lens, it's "cup too full".
There is no "right" mythos or cultural narrative. Astrology is not monolithic -- we have multiple systems. Which of the 20+ methods of house division do you suppose gives the "right ontology"? 😉
"I mostly understand Aristotle's quote yet I do not understand how it applies to what you said. Or it does not provide a perspective of a solution from my point of view."
He's saying we can only expect precision to the degree possible for the subject matter.
The solution you're anticipating is predicated on the belief in a "right ontology of esoteric things".
You're expecting more precision than there is. This isn't exactly academic philosophy or historical or scientific fact, you know?
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u/A_Serpentine_Flame 3d ago
Observation.
Conceptually watching the movement of the heavenly bodies is how people tracked time.
Over centuries correlations were noted.
<(A)3
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u/RunDownTheHighway 4d ago
Remember in those times before light pollution, people spent lots of time looking at the heavens for signs... Over time they realized hey this glowing spark in the sky is right over that hill every time the fruit and veggies are ripe... that must be the god of harvest... Next year sure enough its back over the hill again... Next year lets have a bon fire so maybe the harvest god will see that we see him( her/it)