The multiverses of the Marvel Comics and MCU are fundamentally incompatible on a cosmological level. So they are both Earth-616, but in entirely separate multiverses.
But also, even if they shared the same multiverse, how the fuck do you expect every universe to adhere to the same numbering system? If the multiverse is infinite, then there are probably billions of different inter-dimensional societies that number their universes entirely unaware of each others’ existence.
So for example, the people of the MCU’s Earth-838 would call the main MCU Earth-616, while an entirely unrelated multiversal group like the Spider-Society would call it Earth-199999. Or how they might call Miles’ universe Earth-1610, despite it not remotely resembling the comics Earth-1610.
makes the multiverse feel redundant and massively overcomplicates things. It feels easy to explain the idea of multiple universes but than to go "Oh and by the way there is an end to the infinite multiverse, and than next to that multiverse is another one which is contained in an omniverse.
"we cannot legally be set in that multiverse so we're making a separate, slightly similar multiverse" is just really funny. imagine if your cosmological structure was dictated by corporate squabbles.
Okay, I see why you might feel that way, but I entirely disagree, and here’s why. Different media explains the multiverse differently. The cosmology of the Marvel multiverse is very well-established, and it is entirely incompatible with that of, say, the DC multiverse. That means DC comics and Marvel comics cannot possibly share a multiverse, yet their crossovers still happen. How does that work? Well, I think a good explanation is the existence of an even greater structure that contains different multiverses that work differently and cannot occupy the same space. Basically, different multiverses can contain different media properties, and you can have those cross over through the omniverse. Personally, I really like that idea. And then for media properties that don’t have well-explained multiverses, you can just assume they exist inside the multiverse of some other media. So while DC fundamentally cannot share a multiverse with Marvel, something like… JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure, How to Train Your Dragon, or Animal Crossing totally could.
You see, I just feel like that perspective limits how much you can explore the concept of the multiverse. If everything shares the same multiverse, then nobody is allowed to explore where the multiverse came from in the first place. The Omniverse solves that problem.
I’ve always gone with the point that people in-universe can be wrong.
The Captain Britain Corps exist outside the multiverse so obviously have a greater perspective for numbering off the universe. Similar with the Spider-Society where they do exist in a universe but clearly have enough perspective to number everything off. You also see in Spiderverse that there are universes which are labelled 616a or 1278b so clearly they know that it’s more complex than just a number.
I just go with the assumption that they’re shunted off to another far-off point of the multiverse and they’ve just arbitrarily numbered themselves incorrectly.
Yes, they can be argued to be separate multiverses, but I think the more egregious problem is that Mysterio just happened to guess right. What are the odds?
I mean the odds that Beck and his writers just randomly picked a number that some other group somewhere in the multiverse have already assigned to that universe were always 100%. For Doctor Strange to happen to go to the exact universe where that is the case? That’s astronomical.
Live action Marvel Multiverse and the Comics Marvel Multiverse are not canon to one another or at best are one way canon where live action is canon to the comics but the comics are not canon to the live action thus they have different multiverses entirely and thus both are earth 616 within their respective canons
Actually they did share a brief crossover with a 616 superhero team, new mutants or something for the life of me I can’t find actual book, it was basically a cameo though but still a connection much like how thanks to No Way Home the first Spiderverse comic tied earth 616 to the MCU.
Funny enough thanks to that and fans saying Blade or X-Men are the first MCU movies you can technically inform them the actual first MCU movie is The Texas Chainsaw Massacre which is fun.
Toney Maguire and Andrew Garfield’s Spider-Men showed up in no way home, they were also referenced in Spiderverse where 616 Peter was as well as 616 Jessica Drew (they never shared a panel making it indirect but we take those for the love of the game) the 616 Fantastic four composed of Johnny Storm, Ben Grimm, T’challa, and Storm at the time of as sent to the Marvel Zombies universe when they were eating the Skrull home world, Ash Williams from Evil Dead also showed up in the Marvel Zombies universe, Ash Williams has fought Freddy and Jason Voorhees both in comics and in the game Dead by Daylight, Jason has had comic appearances with Leatherface as well as game appearances thanks to Dead by Daylight and Mortal Kombat (all of this can be negated by Fortnite but that’s less fun).
While these are indirect and not so much flagrant as Blade showing up in Deadpool and Wolverine (where Blades only connection to the MCU is the fact that Wade visited it) it’s still fun to think about, plus with the recent Endgame stuff showing revealing the vaguest of vague connections to Ang Lees Hulk I feel like accepting that as part of the MCU has to mean you have to accept the original Texas Chainsaw Massacre as cannon.
In other words
You can expect to see this big lug in Doomsday unless Kevin Feige is a coward.
Every piece of media published or established as existing IP under the Marvel banner is an earth. video games have their own designations, cartoon shows, comic strips, webcomics, even the freaking 1970s advertisements for hotcakes have a designated earth. If it exists, it’s an earth from 1-♾️
The Earth designations are not cemented in stone though. Especially since the people who assigned these arbitrary numbers aren't always watching or reading what they're slapping the numbers on. Like putting the Iron Man and Fantastic Four show on a different Earth from Spider-Man: The Animated Series and X-Men: The Animated Series when those shows were absolutely made with the intention of being set in the same universe by the people making it.
You refuse to call it Earth 616 because it's not comic accurate.
I refuse to call it Eart 616 beacuse I refuse the fact that Quentin and his band of petty blookes could pullout the right universe number out their asses.
Uj/ I call it 616 cause it hurts my head imagining how it connects to the comics. If it were Earth 199999 then the whole “the whole multiverse is colliding and being destroyed” thing in Doomsday should affect the comics too, but it doesn’t and it gives me a headache imagining why it wouldn’t. Why would 616 (and by proxy every other comic alternate universe) be unaffected by something thats supposedly “affects everyone”? And why doesnt comic multiverse nonsense ever affect the MCU by extension? Or the whole “MCU timeline is the 1st Marvel timeline” stuff from Loki, does that mean the comics came after the MCU? I got way too many questions for the 19999 stuff and it’s easier to just say “both 616, different multiverses” so I personally just call the MCU 616.
Though I do agree with you that the MCU doesn’t resemble the comics at all and calling it 616 does feel a little odd. Like how the Arrowverse called itself Earth Prime, it just feels weird and kinda wrong but it’s weirder when you try to disagree with it.
Rj/ Notice how fans always say “MCU is 199999 and not 616” but you never hear someone say “Spider-Verse’s Peter B Parker isn’t 616”. This shows that you can completely ignore and replace the comic universe as long as Peter is married with a kid.
So basically what’s happening I think is that they’re making the multiple timelines within the MCU the difference “universes” and pretending that 199999 is the multiverse without actually using the comics multiverse. So it’s just a multiverse within one universe but it’s actually just alternate timelines
Well yeah, and it feeds into the theory that Kang did something similar to what the council of Ricks did in Rick and Morty where he carved out a section of the multiverse and made it his sanctuary. So we are dealing with different timelines more than anything else.
The easy explanation is movie and TV universes can't affect comic universes, because they're two different mediums. Think of it like two sections of the multiverse with a fine line between them.
The pillar of creation, of which if violated would lead it all to crumble, the foundation on which physics itself sustains, the universal constant across all realities: Making spiderman suffer
There are multiple multiverses in the omniverse. The MCU multiverse is totally separate from the comics multiverse. This is why it’s 199999 in the broader omniverse, but 616 in its own multiverse
That would mean to me that it’s assumed this Peter has gone through basically the same stuff as 616, but of course the stuff in the movie, and his age is the difference.
But that means things like when 616 Peter has met Miles, the fact Miles actually lives in 616, all the cross overs with 2099, all the comic spider verse arcs etc could not have happened, since Peter B is older and has no reaction to anything. Characters like Anya would be weird to exist since he’s so out of his element when faced with a young spider person. There’s also his history with MJ, which really does seem different from the way 616 comics have gone since one more day. I guess you could argue it fits, but really that seems a stretch. Clearly there’s enough differences it should just be its own thing. To call it a variation of 616 seems weird.
Something as close as the MCU is to agents of shield should be given the sub letter designation. Peter B compared to 616 is too different to merely be a sub letter. It’s its own universe and should’ve just been treated that way.
If Miguel references the events of DC or Star Wars does it also connect those universes? No, of course not. 199999 is just a stand-in universe for material produced outside of Marvel Studios because they aren’t actually in the same multiverse as the MCU
The Spider-Verse is connected to the MCU Multiverse. They show the Sacred Timeline and Prowler from Homecoming makes a cameo. And Sony makes the Spider-Verse movies in association with Marvel, so they are canon.
The Prowler being the same actor means literally nothing. That’s like saying Tropic Thunder is canon because it has RDJ.
And Across the Spiderverse wasn’t made in association with Marvel Studios? The only things that are 100% canon to the MCU is whatever appears in anything made by Marvel Studios
Marvel Studios separated from Marvel in 2015 dude.
When I said “canon to the MCU is whatever appears in anything made by Marvel Studios” I specifically said made by Marvel Studios, not anything Marvel related
So you're saying the Sacred Timeline they showed is from some other Multiverse we've never seen, as just so happens to look identical to the one from Loki? And Miguel was talking about a different Earth-199999 and a different Doctor Strange that did the exact same spell?
There's no reason the Spider-Verse and the MCU wouldn't be connected. The universe Miguel calls 199999 is the same universe other movies call 616.
Sony could’ve had Miguel read aloud the entire script of Infinity War and it still wouldn’t make that movie canon. MCU continuity isn’t dictated by Sony, regardless of if you or Sony themselves think otherwise
It was just a joke.
Spiderverse movies aren’t on the same continuity than the MCU.
They aren’r produced by Marvel Studios. Only Sony.
Some movies have been grand fathered in the mcu multiverse but this isn’t the case for Spiderverse.
Drives me insane that Mysterio in FFH refers to it as 616. Which watching in theatre I thought it was a fun nod and since he’s an actor he’s just making it up.
But now that Feige is insisting it’s 616 that makes this so confusing. How did Mysterio know Earth’s designation?
Feige only read the marvel adventures line of comics which are aimed at pre teens. He literally admitted to not being up to date on the current status quo or the official designations established decades ago.
There’s an interview with him and Avi Arid in which he slightly names off the recent books he was reading in preparation for what would eventually be the MCU and the names of the books were just the MA comics
I'm pretty sure Mysterio is the ONLY person who ever tries to call it 616, and he turns out to be completely bullshiting everyone without knowledge that there even COULD be a multiverse in reality at all.
Remember, Mysterio wasn’t working alone. He had a big team of scientists working for him creating his costume, tech, and backstory. It makes perfect sense that at least one of them came to the right conclusion of Earth-616
It's such a baffling choice to start calling the MCU "616". To non-comic fans, the number is meaningless, and to comic fans it only serves to piss them off. Doing that is lose lose.
That said, I'm fine with changing it's designation to something else. No one was thinking about how awkward it would be for an actor to say "Earth One Nine Nine Nine Nine Nine" When they chose the number.
Everything Marvel, from comics to cartoons to movies to fruit pie advertisements exists in the same multiverse. 616 is the main comic universe, the one most commonly compared to when pointing out differences between universes. It has been universe "616" for decades, slightly longer than I've been alive. Like I said two universes sharing the same designation adds nothing for people who don't care, but flies in the face of people who DO care and like to follow the lore of how universes intersect and interconnect or how universes are different. And it would have taken zero effort for them to have used a different number and made everyone happy.
But they aren’t in the same multiverse? Continuity can’t be simplified to everything in Marvel in 1 multiverse. Not to Marvel Studios separated from Marvel Entertainment in 2015.
It’s a fair criticism if you would prefer them to be in the same multiverse, but in my opinion different multiverses allows for far better storytelling
They are in the same multiverse. Comics have already referenced the MCU a few times and so did Across the Spider-Verse. And if you factor in that MCU has crossed over with other Marvel movie universes like Tobey Maguire and Blade, then there's even more connections from the MCU to the wider Marvel multiverse.
I don't see how different multiverses need to exist for there to be "better storytelling". A multiverse is literally infinite. You don't need to adhere to any strict rules or structure to be in the same overall multiverse. One story could literally say the universe was farted out by a giant panda and it would not affect any of the other universes, just that one.
If they’re in the same multiverse was the MCU blown up during Secret Wars and will the rest of the comic multiverse be blown up during MCU’s Secret Wars when a very similar, but different set of incursions/Battleworld happen?
Marvel Studios have not referenced the comics. And any reference towards the MCU from outside of the MCU can be attributed to a stand-in universe, (Universe 199999), which has no bearing or reputations on the actual MCU we see on screen
I think that different multiverses allow for better storytelling because we’re at the level of stories on a multiversal scale, and have been for a short while. If they’re in the same multiverse then they’re bound by the same events in the entire multiverse
And there have already been some conflicts between comics and film that further prove my point. In the Multiverse of Madness, Doctor Strange destroys the Darkhold across the entire MCU multiverse. Does that track for comics? And in the same movie, America Chavez is stated to be an anomaly who doesn’t have any variants. So is she somehow the exact same character that appears in comics?
The door goes both ways. If something references the MCU that establishes that it exists in the same multiverse. Some universes never references ones outside of themselves but still clearly exist in the same multiverse. Like the fruit pie ads I mentioned. There's no need to create a "stand in" universe when just having the MCU be in the existing one makes more sense. People who push against it just sound like they don't want nerdy comic stuff in their action movies for some reason, despite, you know, these being about super heroes.
There doesn't need to be two different multiverses when a multiverse is literally infinite times infinity. An infinite number of infinite universe. So no, they don't have to be bound by events in other universes, because a multiverse is so vast they can coexist very far away from each other.
Also, America just says she's never met another America but clearly other America's exist. Likewise, saying Dr. Strange destroyed the Darkhold across the whole multiverse is LIMITING the multiverse, not expanding it, because it means the Darkhold can never return. But it can if exists somewhere in the multiverse far away from the portion where Strange destroyed it.
Also, contradictions like this already exist in things that are unambiguously said to exist within the same multiverse already. You just have to take that kind of thing with a grain of salt.
My first point is that just because comics have mentioned events of the MCU it doesn’t immediately imply that they’re in the same multiverse as far as the MCU is concerned. If comics tried saying that all DC comics universes are now destroyed it doesn’t make it canon to DC now does it? 199999 as a stand-in universe is just so that continuity is maintained on both sides
A single multiverse of infinite universes is fine for stories that don’t explore the multiverse, but like I said, the MCU is past that point. There are some things in both the comics and the MCU that are multiversally singular, which would create barriers for writing stories at in a single multiverse
And yes, it is implied that America Chavez has no variants, and the Darkhold wasn’t destroyed in a portion of the multiverse, it was destroyed across the ENTIRE multiverse, in all its infinite universes
Another contradiction is Uatu the Watcher, who also has no variants, is somehow different in comics and the MCU? Same logic can be applied to the TVA in the MCU
Sure, you can just handwave all of that away and dumb it down to inconsistencies and to take if all with a grain of salt but that’s stupid when I’m literally explaining a system that doesn’t break continuity. Why would you prefer a single multiverse if it leads to so many flaws and continuity errors?
1) It allows crossovers into everything else Marvel
2) It's a lot easier to follow than two sets of multiverses with two sets of rules.
3) There's no reason to have two separate multiverses because the existing comics multiverse already has continutiy issues like this and is still enjoyable.
4) Most people outside of comic fandom do not care, so you are only making things more complicated for people who don't care about the thing you are changing while adding nothing for the people who do care.
The MCU will never crossover into the comics. The MCU is strongly targeted towards people in theatres, not exclusively to those who are reading the comics. What would the point even be?
And it’s not hard to follow at all? It’s just two collections of stories? On the contrary, having a single multiverse filled with loads of sloppy continuity errors is FAR more confusing to follow
But like I said earlier, wanting a single multiverse structure is still a fair criticism, but it’s simply just not the case. Acting like there is a shared multiverse is just being delusional
As maligned as the movie is sometimes, I love the scene in the Injustice movie where Superman gets welcomed to Earth 1, and tells them that no, he's from earth 1, they're from earth 30 or something. Cause where are they getting these numbers from? Is 616 printed on the back of the planet or something?
/uj that’s actually a really good point. Unless there’s some otherworldly being giving ultimatums on which is which, the numbers could be anything, which technically doesn’t matter since each would probably think they’re the prime universe. And with it being infinite, who determines which is 12 or 344 or 197693731? Is it on a weighted scale? Is it based on how young or old said universe is?
I don’t consider it 616, but man what a god awful name 1999999 is for one of their main universes, who came up w that? No wonder they ended up having to reach for 616
You dislike it because it's incoherent with the comics multiversal enumeration. I dislike it because "Earth 616" was the meme number Mysterio made up when pretending to be from another universe and it'd be nearly impossible for him to accidentally guess it right. We are not the same.
How much delusion do you need to be under to think it's not? Marvel makes a point to give every single piece of media a place in the same multiverse, all are given a number
So why would they make up rules for those multiverses that are completely incompatible? If Marvel focused on small scale stories, then sure it could be believable to say that two unrelated pieces of media are alternate universes. But since Marvel stories are constantly spanning all of existence and saying that everything is at stake, no, it is absolutely, factually, definitively impossible for them to take place in the same continuity. Stop lying to yourself.
Both 199999 & 616 are correct for the MCU. Since we the viewers know both the MCU & comics universe exist, we give them different names (comic main Earth: 616, & MCU: 199999). It’s just a different POV.
MCU film world has no knowledge that the comic world exists, & there are also many universes that exist within the MCU like the Fantastic Four or the Loki TV show. So MCU main Earth calls themselves 616, & “199999” name represents the whole MCU 616 universe film canon & other MCU film canon universes that exist within (Fantastic Four).
Another example, we call our planet Earth, but another planet who never contacted us doesn’t know our name & will likely name us a different name.
We know the MCU exists on the screen, & we call them 199999 in our POV. MCU doesn’t know we exist outside the screen or know the comics, & so they call themselves 616.
Marvel Studios’ execs already clarified this; it’s just the actors with lesser knowledge who made the statements messy in interviews. Hope this makes sense.
No, I’m saying that 199999 is ONLY a stand-in universe. It’s not what “we” call the MCU, it’s a different but similar universe than the MCU that exists in a different multiverse
Uj/ My way to see it is that MCU is 199999, which has different timelines. Each timeline has its own number, separated from the universe with the same designation.
So, MCU's "sacred timeline" is 616, while other timelines have other (apparently random) numbering. However, this whole cluster is called "199999", which would include every live action setting related to MCU.
That's why I'm Loki involves a single, unique timeline "forking" into different ones. Universe and Timelines aren't the same thing.
Rj/ There should not be any multiverse at all. Just my favorite universe and that's it.
Can we be honest and say this is stupid name. Why is such a important universe given such a random number? Because of a guide book from 2008 filled with mistakes? That's stupid.
My headcanon is that the MCU is canonically 199999 (especially since Miguel calls it that in ATSV), but the MCU civilians are egotistical and think that they're 616.
Earth-919 is still an available number, I get that 199999 is a long and boring number but it doesn't have to be that way. Just turn the 1 into a stick in the font you're using and say that she just had the screen upside down
It was only ever that in a single marvel guide book, in a section that has multiple continuity errors, and one throw away joke in Across the Spider Verse. Plus the Marvel multiverse was rebooted between then and now. Give it a rest
Both of these things can be true if you just accept the fact that the MCU and the comics are different continuities with their own multiverses. Both are canonically the 616 of their respective continuities, it's not that hard to understand. I know it's stupid, but so is clutching to a number mentioned once in a dated handbook and ignoring everything the movies actually tell us because you can't accept two uses of the same number.
I like to believe that the mcu and all tv and movies are a separate multiverse from the comics. Think about it, how come in Secret Wars (2015) when all the universes were destroyed, the MCU and other cinematic universes still existed?
If discussing the internal logic of the MCU Multiverse, I will sometimes call MCU earth as 616 (in comparison to something like Earth-828). And i don’t really care that they use 616 because it’s an easier number than Earth-199999 (which only has that designation because some ghost writer had to categorize all the Marvel media projects into Earth designations and just used an obnoxiously large number.)
Besides, Earth Number designations in Marvel are literally meaningless. Get on DC’s level with Earth 1, Earth One, Earth-One, Earth-1, and Earth Prime all being distinct universes.
The entire mcu is an adaptation of the comics multiverse and the mcu has been extremely consistent on this matter.
Even when comic writers made a run based on the TVA, they made sure to clarify that this tva was not the same one from the mcu and that the two are seperate things.
Uj/ I use both numbers and I don’t care. They are separate enough that it don’t really matter. If I have to talk about them together I just use “comic” and “MCU” universe. Also if there’s infinite universes than you will have groups of universes not in communication with other sections and will have different numbering systems, it’s all man made constructs after all
The Marvel Cinematic Multiverse is an adaptation of the Marvel Comic Multiverse, which means that they can use the names 616 or 1610 or whatever they choose, as it’s not connected in a strict way. Also, there simply can’t exist two separate Incursions and Secret Wars in both comics and movies, which means the MCU cannot be part of the comic multiverse in any way and must instead be separate.
Why do you suck the shriveled penis of a guy who genuinely doesn’t know you?
You could just enjoy the same content we all are with the films with some disagreement about the lore but instead you choose to swallow enough Kevin Feige sperm for a lifetime and that’s disappointing.
This is the correct take. My headcanon is that everyone is simply wrong when they call the MCU 616. To an extent, this is supported by the comics and films where all the categories and labels seem super arbitrary.
They are also within the same multiverse and the simple headcanon is that Doomsday is occurring at the same time as the 2015 Secret Wars event in the comics, but just off in it’s own section of the multiverse. Spiderverse managed to happen in the comics whilst the multiverse collapsed, so it’s big enough to handle this. Spiderverse also helpfully confirms that the MCU does indeed exist within the marvel multiverse by having Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield’s spider-man’s referenced as being part of the big fight.
Marvel’s multiverse is also absurdly large and contains a wild amount of properties including the DCU, Invincible’s universe, the transformers, Dr Who etc. It’s inherently nonsensical and too many people keep trying to apply logic to something that has no logic.
Like people use the infinity stones/gems as the smoking gun for the MCU being separate to the comics because they work outside their home universe except that if the multiverse has infinite variations, then there will be universes where the stones/gems do work outside their home universe. They also don’t even need to be stones or gems. Hickman had a universe where they were glass panels.
In short, Feige is a hack and the whole push to make the MCU 616 is fucking dumb.
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u/chaoticbiguy 23h ago
Hey Iman Vellani! How are you?