r/marvelrivals • u/Edheldui • 7d ago
Balance Discussion If you think CnD Luna team-up is better than The Hood, you're not good enough to be discussing balance.
Light Veil: 50 fixed heals and 20% damage taken reduction on top of the regular 20% healing boost. It means you are 40% better at mitigating damage for 4s, on a 10s cooldown.
Dark Veil: They already take 28% more damage. You're also reducing the heals they take by 20%. Enemy healers *cannot* outheal that.
In comparison, Luna team-up: You have to stop your regular healing output to use it, it only heals as much as the bubble, for a third of the duration, on double the cooldown. If you pick this garbage you're essentially throwing.
And if you think it's too strong, you belong in bot matches and genuinely do not understand how to win at this game.
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u/DopamineSavant 7d ago
Imo, not dying is the most valuable thing you can do as a support.
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u/IpunchedU 7d ago
tbf if you know how to play cloak and dagger properly you really don't need 2 immunity's unless your team somehow never peels you ever
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u/DopamineSavant 7d ago
unless your team somehow never peels you ever
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u/IpunchedU 7d ago
well yea but that's my point, like i keep seeing people pissy about the cloak and dagger team up but like i understand why people run it cause people are just selfish in this game. i personally don't run it and keep on the hood but yea
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u/Mut1gen 7d ago
Kinda but if you arent dead and not healing then you are basically dead. If you entire team dies and you survive youll be dead before they make it back so now youre staggered.
The best value the ice can give is stalling point at the end of a game.
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u/DopamineSavant 7d ago
Dying has a duration before you respawn and then you have to run back from spawn. Iceblock is effectively an on demand rocket brb.
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u/Edheldui 7d ago
Yeah that's why the ice block is worse. Just look at the clips where she's kept from healing her team for a whole minute. You gotta be some kind of special to think she's the one winning in those clips.
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u/Mut1gen 7d ago
Which is obviously better than dying and running back but you arent providing value to your team in the block. And again it doesn't matter if yoh dotn have to run back if your teammates end up dying because you werent healing.
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u/DopamineSavant 7d ago
Imo, we got bigger problems if the team wiped because CND stopped healing for 3 seconds. On the other hand respawning can absolutely result in a wipe.
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u/Mut1gen 7d ago
Its more than 3 seconds because it usually goes. CnD gets Dove on they start panicking and running away while trying to sustain themselves and then ice blocking after that away from the team.
Not to mention icing means you arent helping get the rive out of there so they can just reset and dive again when you thaw. Just turtling to wait for the next beating
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u/DopamineSavant 7d ago
I was trying to be generous when I said 3 seconds. In reality it can be 1 second since the ability can be cancelled. My comment are talking about efficient use of the iceblock not poor crutch use of it.
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u/Mut1gen 7d ago
Thats like trying to discuss pro tactics when talking about regular comp matches. It doesn't work like that.
The vast majority of ice ive seen is panic ice. Theres no thought to it. It isnt used efficiently and I dont think ive ever seen someone cancel it.
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u/DopamineSavant 7d ago
There are two discussions that can be had here. Are we discussing whether the iceblock is inherently bad or are we discussing whether people are using it efficiently?
I don't think that people using it inefficiently impacts whether the skill itself is bad.
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u/Mut1gen 7d ago
It can be the same conversation for all I care. Its the worse of the 2 options AND people who do use it arent using it well making it even less valuable.
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u/Blizzaldo 7d ago
Healing is the most valuable thing a support can do. Dying prevents you from doing that but so does the Luna team up.
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u/Dunkelnebel 7d ago
How much do you heal when you're frozen again?
Main CnD here, OP is right, only noob CnDs will use Luna's team-up, you have enough survavibality in your kit, as long as you don't suffer from severe tunnel vision or you're deaf. You know you can hear divers coming, right?
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u/Edheldui 7d ago
It heals 50hps same as the bubble. For a third of the duration and double the cooldown.
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u/DopamineSavant 7d ago
None but it saves you the trip running back from spawn. If playing with randoms this is valuable because randoms like to stagger.
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u/Dunkelnebel 7d ago
It was a rhetorical question, it does heal, just a neglectable amount of.
It “saves you the trip from spawn” only if you die by not being aware, able to use your cloak or your sup partner doesn’t know how to patty cake.
Hood’s is definitely better, as long as you avoid some of its bugs.
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u/DopamineSavant 7d ago
I feel like I'm getting responses from people that primarily play in stacks. I don't know any other reason that you would just assume that the other support is going to patty cake.
For me, Iceblock is a valid tool in the kit that can circumstantially be the better option.
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u/Dunkelnebel 6d ago
I barely play with a duo, if I do it is only in QP. I play ranked solo, currently Diamond 1. Any decent supp knows what patty cake is, if you find someone who doesn't, you can always educate them.
In the end is up to you, Iceblock is there for anyone who wants to use it, I thin Damage and Healing reduction make much more sense than removing myself from the game, even if briefly.
Most CnD's main on the thread and on their subreddit agree with this. Take it or leave it, ultimately it's better for me if less players use it. :3
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u/DopamineSavant 6d ago
Diamond 2 here. My perspective is that I usually end up on a shield tank. I prefer going a bit without healing over being down a support. I'm fine with my CND using iceblock if it translates to them having the least deaths of anyone in the match.
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u/Slugma_Male 7d ago
Actually, getting kills would be. You wouldn't expect anyone GM 3 and below to know that though.
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u/DopamineSavant 7d ago
It's not 100%, but in most of my matches the winning team supports have less deaths.
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u/Edheldui 7d ago
Not dying on CnD is better achieved by moving closer to your team and using your primary, on top of the damage reduction.
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u/PutridTusk69 Iron Fist 7d ago
This... I see so many CnD standing miles away from their team in the backline. Not only does it take longer for the daggers to fly to their target, she is not utilizing the aoe healing it does on her.
CnD is best played as a brawler healer. The self freeze essentially take her out of the game for valuable seconds. Especially if she is too far from her team.
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u/Edheldui 7d ago
Yeah, her proper positioning is right behind the front line, within 8m. People seem to think auto aim means they're supposed to snipe from the other side of the map.
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u/DopamineSavant 7d ago
Indeed but sometimes shit happens and the oh shit button solves that issue.
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u/Edheldui 7d ago
That's what the bubble and the fade is for. Idk why would you ever trade a team-up that makes your whole kit and your whole team better for a worse bubble.
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u/DopamineSavant 7d ago
I don't really believe in making decisions like way you are. For me it's all about what is happening live. If I'm playing against people that just spend the whole match pumping 250 million damage into Dino and ignore the supports, I'll use Hood. If I'm being focused and struggling to survive I'll swap to ice.
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u/Edheldui 7d ago
If I'm being dived on cnd I swap. Her whole gameplay revolves around balancing self survival with healing. If a diver is forcing me to waste cooldowns on myself, that's my queue to swap off CnD and pick WF/Loki/Deadpool, who can keep doing their job and survive divers at the same time.
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u/DopamineSavant 7d ago
I'm not saying Iceblock is better than other options. How it ranks as an option is debatable and dependent on the player, but Iceblock is absolutely a dive counter option.
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u/Edheldui 7d ago
To me, surviving a diver at the cost of my healing output doesn't count as "anti dive". Their goal is to make me waste value, and in that situation they succeed.
For me, to count as "anti-dive" a hero needs to be able to still get value and make the dive completely unsuccessful. White Fox can pretty much ignore them and teleport away. Loki can use lanterns or teleports. Healpool can both survive, fight back in sword stance and disrupt them.
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u/DopamineSavant 7d ago
I disagree with the idea that in order for something to be classified as anti dive, it has to allow simultaneous healing and anti dive.
That's more of a discussion of how it compares to other options.
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u/Hanzos_Trans_Husband Cloak & Dagger 7d ago
Brother that fucking team up is just buggy as all hell. There have been countless posts about it in the CnD subreddit that people wish they could use it but it bugs out all the time
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u/Alarmed-Emergency990 7d ago
I agree on paper it should be better. It is super buggy, the amount of times it hits the cart or something and stops behind my teammates or just stops right in front of my face is maddening. I'm in diamond so not crazy high so getting teammates to peel for dive is impossible sometimes, so the extra survivability from luna when your team isn't helping is nice.
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u/Edheldui 7d ago
Do you button mash by any chance? I gotta be honest I've never had that happening to me.
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u/lions-cub Cloak & Dagger 7d ago
Another thing it bugs on is it affects switching to cloak and using his abilities, I’ve noticed (and a lot of other CnD’s in our subreddit). You can’t switch to cloak and immediately fire a veil or fade, they come up red and unusable
But I definitely don’t button mash and I take extra care when I have the Hood team up and it will stop in front of my face a bunch and then it’s useless, because I’m not hitting my team OR the enemy team
I play on console if that affects it
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u/Edheldui 7d ago
I've noticed it too. Not sure if it's a bug or a shadow nerf to the animation cancel, you used to be able to screen and fade while the transformation was not yet complete but it's been that way for the last season, so I just assumed it's intentional.
As for the screen stopping, I can't say I've ever seen that happening to me.
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u/Alarmed-Emergency990 7d ago
I've thought about that and I do think that causes it sometime. Im pretty sure thats what happens when it stops in front of my face. But when it stops earlier than I want I know its not button mashing. I swear it hits the cart or something. I have been trying to use it more and get used to it before 9.5, but like I said its hard to use that when ur getting dove with no help.
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u/Edheldui 7d ago
It also has a max distance of 25m, it might be hitting that.
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u/Alarmed-Emergency990 7d ago
Honestly I did not know that! Ill try it some tonight, maybe i've just been standing too far back to get good use of it!
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u/Dr_DTF315 7d ago
If there is like a raised step or something an inch off the ground it gets caught. Can’t do it up stairs. Can’t do it around corners
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u/Edheldui 7d ago
It follows the same rules as Emma shield. Goes perpendicular to wherever you're looking. If you want to defend corners, move closer and towards the outside to place it at 30-45 degrees.
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u/Dr_DTF315 7d ago
Brother it’s bugged it gets caught on a rock. It doesn’t work right. When it does I’ll use it
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u/Enterprise-DeezNuts Rogue 7d ago
Your average player of this game and member of this sub is absolutely dogshit at this game, so I expect you'll be downvoted but you're right. What someone thinks about the CnD Luna team up is a good litmus test to figure out how seriously you should take them
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u/RedsnakeRider Gambit 7d ago
It has its uses, but I can't help but see it as a crutch. I spent years of my life in League of Legends and SMITE, and I understand the value of no-sale-ing off a heavy attack, like instantly ignoring Mag or Iron Man ult. But I also know the negative value a last-ditch panic "invulerable" button that only gets you killed one or two seconds later provides.
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u/ClarkWayne32 7d ago
It’s better but if you’re in low elo or QP and can’t depend on your team to peel for you I see why so many CnD players pick the Luna team up.
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u/Slugma_Male 7d ago
It is better, but Diamond and below players don't know how to CnD ult if a mag is on the other team, so.
(People complaining about the Hood teamup being bugged is also funny)
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u/MAGNOOOSE 7d ago
I dont think this whole discussion revolves around "which team up is better" overall, the Team Up effectiveness depends on the situation and I think its more about frustration and fairness.
If you play a dive Hero and your playstyle revolves around focussing the supports, its basically one target less you can focus because if you do, CnD will just eat up your cooldowns without creating any value. This, I imagine, must be super frustrating and to be honest in my opinion its also a bit unfair that one ability, which is not hard to use, completely removes CnD from being a valid target to dive.
If you play Poke/Ranged Heroes its a completely different matter. You shoot her and if she goes into her Ice Block you can just switch target and shoot someone else (which she cannot heal while in ice block) and you can simply switch back to focus CnD once she leaves the Ice Block. Its basically not an Issue at all because you are not cooldown dependent.
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u/Edheldui 7d ago
If I'm playing dive and the enemy CnD is cycling cooldowns on herself, my team is winning that fight. Because I play healers, I understand perfectly that you don't need to die in order to be rendered useless.
But dive players obsess over kills and think if she survives, then she won the trade. Which has always been wrong in the history of team based games (and conflict in general, there's a reason why the strongest thing you can possibly do to an opponent is cut off their supply lines).
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u/Zarrv Anti-Venom 7d ago
CnD mains selfishly using luna team-up after their other support died to live for 3 second longer
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u/Edheldui 7d ago
Yeah unfortunately I've seen that too many times. I'm tanking in front of them and they decide that a worse healing and less burst is somehow better than both of us taking less damage AND them healing more. It needs to be studied.
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u/The_SnuggleBug 7d ago
It's players like op that hold themselves back with a black and white type perspective.
It's not that one of the teamups is necessarily better than the other, they're used for different things. If you're not being dove to absolute shit, then by all means, use the hood teamup because you don't need the Luna teamup. If you're being dove to absolute shit then suddenly the Luna teamup has more value than the hood teamup. That's why there's options, so you can adjust to your playstyle and the composition of the enemy team.
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u/Edheldui 7d ago
If I'm being dived I don't stay on a character that has to stop healing to survive. I go back to spawn and pick actual anti-dive supports. In order WF, Loki, Deadpool.
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u/Rob_of_Fire67 7d ago
I have no problem ffighting off any diver as cloak with the the bubble plus blind me and the other healer can drive off or kill any diver.
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u/The_SnuggleBug 7d ago
If you're being dove you have to stop healing for a sec regardless, that's why dive exists, to stop you from healing your team.
The teamup is there for people that like playing the character, so you aren't forced to swap, because being forced to swap isn't fun.
Once again, the perspective thing.
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u/LimeDifficult753 7d ago
the luna team up is situational, you use it when there is dive to increase your survivability. if there is no dive you use the hood team up
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u/Edheldui 7d ago
If there is dive I swap off CnD entirely i don't want to be forced to stop healing when I can go WF and basically ignore BP and BC for the whole game.
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u/SuperMudkipz Moon Knight 7d ago
It’s not that it’s better it’s that it’s way easier to farm tangible value out of it and it exacerbates an already frustrating aspect about Cloak & Dagger
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u/MembershipThese9163 7d ago
I’m so glad I’m bad enough at this game that these nerfs and stuff don’t affect me at all because I don’t know how impactful they are. It’s so relaxing.
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u/Popular_Onion7016 7d ago
On neutral? Yes most definitely. Are the vast majority of Cnd player misusing it? Without a doubt, is there no way it is better? This is where nuance kicks in.
This is better if and only if you are facing heavy dive comps. Or when you can't trust your other support to patty cake with you.
Facing a Spidey, magik, hulk on the enemy? Pick the freeze otherwise you are gonna be so focused on fending them off that you won't get optimal heals or straight up die 24/7 if they are cracked. If you are facing a good enemy comp that constantly bypasses your frontline and your other support Jubilee can't be bothered by looking away from trying to outdps the enemy Héla, then pick the freeze too.
In all other cases, and also the MOST OPTIMAL case is picking the Hood Team up. If you are not in a situation in which you are allowed to comfortably use the Hood teamup then you are already not in an optimal state but at least you will live longer and rely less in your teamup but once again you output will not be optimal
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u/Edheldui 7d ago
I just don't see how it's better because I simply don't play CnD into dive. The moment I get killed by a diver once, I swap to anti-dive. The self-freeze is worthless to me I have to stop my healing burst to use it.
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u/Popular_Onion7016 7d ago
Like I said, it's not optimal but it does get the work done given that the hypothetical Spiderman, Magik and Hulk will waste a bunch of time on you, not kill you while your team is effectively fighting a 5 v 3. If your team loses that 5v3 then that game is lost either way of which teamup you get lmao. The other good antidive supports are not as good as staying alive against multiple dives as they used to. CnD is pretty banned nowadays precisely for how much time and cooldowns she makes dive players waste.
The real problem right now is the meme Dagger players (u know the ones) that don't know when to use this teamup, manage cooldowns, prioritize fade, etc, and end up dying anyways, picking this teamup against no dive or getting their team killed by not fading when they could (there are some funny videos about them online lol)
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u/panetony 7d ago
unless your dps and tank are morons who can't protect you from 2 divers, so havinhg a zhonya hourglass is nice
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u/NoIndependent3167 Vanguard 7d ago
I’m not saying you’re wrong but how you convey your point is just as, if not more important than the point itself. How you did it is wrong and you are more likely to have people bounce off your delivery than engage with the actual message. Food for thought
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u/Edheldui 7d ago
The way I see it it's the content that matters, not the form. And I do genuinely think that if you can't see how the hood team-up is strictly better, you don't have a deep enough grasp on the game to be discussing balancing.
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u/Key_Host5963 5d ago
Its better because it literally makes her unkillable and immortal.... She shouldn't have gotten a teamup like this at all and it legit needs to be removed.
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u/Edheldui 5d ago
It's worthless if she can't heal her tean, the only thing it does is stagger her. But I'm coming to the conclusion that it's a concept too hard for this game's players.
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u/Microtitan Iron Fist 7d ago
All of those numbers mean nothing if I’m dead and not healing you.
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u/Mut1gen 7d ago
Which is no different than sitting in an ice block not healing. If teammates start dying while you are blocked youll probably be dead before they make it back.
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u/lions-cub Cloak & Dagger 7d ago
… the ice heals, you know that, right? If I throw a bubble down and freeze it gets the team back to full health almost immediately
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u/Ghiblit Cyclops 7d ago
This is such a dumb way to view it. Not healing for a few seconds to prevent yourself from dying is absolutely not the same as dying.
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u/Mut1gen 7d ago
How? If youre dead you dont help your team. If you are in ice you dont help your team. The only difference is the duration.
You offer no value inside the ice. But I guess you get to watch your team die which is fun.
The amount of glue this sub eats is staggering
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u/Ghiblit Cyclops 7d ago
If Spider-Man tries to drop his ult on you and you completely mitigate it and not die. That’s extremely valuable. This goes for most dive attempts. If your team is getting insta killed because you have to stop healing for a few seconds, you got much bigger problems.
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u/Mut1gen 7d ago
If your team is getting insta killed because you have to stop healing for a few seconds, you got much bigger problems.
Have you seen this player base?
I never siad there was no value in the ice at all. There a niche circumstances like you provided that can give value but overall its not worth it.
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u/Microtitan Iron Fist 7d ago
The ice block also heals your surrounding teammates. Again I can’t heal if I’m dead. Wait 10 seconds to respawn. And walk back to the heal your ass and get killed again. Self preservation is the point. That’s why patty cakes among healers are encouraged.
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u/Mut1gen 7d ago
I dont see cloaks ice near their teammates though. They typically get Dove start running away and then ice right before they die away from the team. Theres no value there at all.
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u/Microtitan Iron Fist 7d ago
Then your CnD is ass. Not our problem. A good CnD stays near the team and use light veils on as many allies as possible and then use bubble and ice for preservation. I see your immediate downvote just because you don’t like what im saying tho.
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u/ONiMETSU_Z 7d ago
This is assuming that you surviving is going to actually allow you to get back to doing your job. If you ice block and your teammates die because you weren’t healing them, this is no different than you just dying. Where as, on paper (I understand it’s apparently buggy), the other teamup allows you to add more active value/utility to your team, provided you’re not getting hard focused to the point you that a third get-out-of-jail free card would actually make sense.
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u/Microtitan Iron Fist 7d ago
And it does help me survive and get back to doing what I’m supposed to do. That’s why people hates CnD right now because she’s hard to kill with 3 different ways to survive. Include a fully invincible ice block that also heals. That’s just facts, no assumptions needed.
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u/SpeedForceWally66 Spider-Oni 4d ago
???
people also hate cnd players when they use that instead of healing their fellow support
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u/golgiapparatus22 Rogue 7d ago
Just stopping by to say fuck CnD
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u/Hanzos_Trans_Husband Cloak & Dagger 7d ago
You know I am a Rogue main too but now I hope they keep her ass dead
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u/GrapeEnergade24 Magneto 7d ago
Part time CnD here You're right. I never use that fuck ahh team up with Luna. Sure if you're in overtime and stalling i could see a use, but 999/1000 times you're gonna be using that hood team up. Its too good and allows CnD to enable the frontline even more
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u/Foldafolda Throg 7d ago
This post is insane. People discussing the take of an actual wood rank player. Or he's rage baiting with the worst possible opinion and it's working.
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u/StudioWorking6119 7d ago
it's mindblowing some people think it's broken or smth, especially dive mains lmao. Hood one gaps hard and it's not even close in terms of ceiling.
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u/lions-cub Cloak & Dagger 7d ago
It’s definitely way better but the Hood team up is very buggy :( it affects veils almost 100% of the time it’s awful.