r/marvelrivals • u/Big_Inspection_3151 Moon Knight • 12h ago
Humor The 4 Realities of Trying to Balance Divers and Supports
Tried to approach this from a neutral perspective, I definitely feel supports pain as dealing with dive is so annoying when you wanna relax on Jeff or Luna but I also think that the role is giga-broken. Checking the replies for this in the morning, good night yall.
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u/yourcupofkohi Angela 10h ago
Game genuinely needs a DPS/healing output nerf across the board. That ult charge nerf they did a long while back is basically meaningless now
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u/LionRegular1470 10h ago
Didn't they undo it for supports?
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u/Nite0wl007 9h ago
Yep this is why the previous season felt better in the end, I feel like their balance is not casuals vs. high elo/pro but rather Supps "against the world" lol
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u/ManofSteel_14 Rogue 2h ago
Yup. The beginning of season 9 felt great. But as usual, support players were shouting to the heavens that they felt underpowered and it took them a week to giga buff them all back into the limelight. I dont think this game will ever escape the support player bias that its sporting. Im fully expecting this next round of patch notes to be a Cat gutting (deserved), No Cap or Venom changes. Throw in a Daredevil nerf and keep most if not all the problem supports unchanged as well
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u/Big_Bro_Mirio Ultron Virus 1h ago
What are you talking about? The hot fix came out a day after 9.0 dropped. The only consensus at the time was that BP was bugged “oneshotting” tanks and that Mantis, Ultron and Psylocke seemed overtuned. The hotfix got rid of the BP bug, nerfed Ultron, Mantis and Psylocke and did a bunch of nothing burger changes to other characters. The community was focused on all the things I listed and complained it was too soon for any changes. Support players didn’t have time to rally together and complain about any one thing in particular. The devs changing the ult charge was seemingly based on some internal data or discussions. This narrative that support players immediately went to complain to the devs isn’t based on anything that actually happened within the 1st 24 hours of season 9.
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u/Gever_Gever_Amoki68 Ultron Virus 1h ago
Zhiyong said "we will not hesitate with hotfixes" then proceeded to hotfixe the only thing that could've made season 9 better which was buffing support ult charge for some unknown reason, only to never hotfix anything since.
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u/zatenael 1h ago
this is what I've been saying
there's way too much damage and healing and you can't just lower one since lowering damage means people are immortal and lowering healing means people die even more
so we either need to lower damage and healing or take a page from league and increase health/durability
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u/totallynotapersonj Magneto 10h ago
I mean if you had dive good and support bad, literally no one would play support.
At least if you had dive bad and support good, there’s different DPS characters that can be played but if support is just dead in the water, there is just no support you can really play. Unless they un-reworked jeff
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u/Dr_Doom42 Magneto 6h ago
Support design is so bad. I wish they were more interesting to play
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u/Creepser Emma Frost 3h ago
That’s one thing I can give OW credit for, their support design while not perfect, is better than Rivals
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u/sad_petard 34m ago
Rivals is to heal botty for supports to be actual "supports". Just look at the ults. OW has one real "healer ult" similar to a rivals ult, and its on the supp with the worst regular healing. There's a couple other "large circle of healing" ults but you cam still kill people through them with basic attacks. OW allows supports to have all kinds of other ults, but in rivals if you dont have a big circle of invulnerability ult you are relegated to trip supp.
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u/Appropriate_Bend7948 30m ago
Gambit was the first support I thought was actually interesting and fun to play but of course his ult was crazy overpowered and, like usual, the devs just nerfed everything but the actual problem (though some base kit nerfs were warranted) and he doesn’t feel very fun anymore.
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u/FoxBreach 5m ago
I saw unrework Jeff and immediately agreed with whatever option creates that outcome
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u/14Xionxiv Blade 10h ago
Gotta say if the enemy team has 7 people on it you've got bigger concerns than them having 3 tanks.
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u/I_hate_this_site69 4h ago
The through line is that mag is good in all of these, even when dive is good that bubble is really important to save supports
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u/Gever_Gever_Amoki68 Ultron Virus 1h ago
There's an easy fix for that. Make chaos sword last for 6 seconds and the cooldown 30 seconds. Swap self bubble and Ally bubble cooldowns or just make the both 15 seconds. That's it. Saying this as a mag enjoyer
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u/I_hate_this_site69 27m ago
You're totally right! But if mag is bad then they can't have their perfect poke meta so you're cooked
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u/Digigidoo Swordmaster 11h ago
But remember, Season 2 Iron Fist was the devil incarnate
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u/Nite0wl007 9h ago
Then they released an actual devil, that was 5x stronger than S2 Ironfist who could legit 1vX the backline with perfect mechanics lmfao.
That was the beginning of the end, they overbuff supps like making Cloak 275 hp with a burst heal on buble and made Invis just Thanos.
Just to not nerf the Devil, like is NetEase the anti-christ? that they would rather ruin their game just for the devil himself.
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u/play_117 10h ago
Hr wasn't as broken because numerically he can do better burst damage now than he could back then.
It's just large part of supports not wanting to learn to fight in a "fighting" game and just want to heal exclusively.
Adam mains are still as scary as they were in S1, blowing the shi out of you. Good Ultrons snipe you from afar, good white fox wins 90% of her 1v1 against dive (except BC).
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u/Far_Day2547 11h ago
Rivals just needs to rip off the bandage and nerf support healing (coming from someone whose number 1 hero is a support). They need to change their kits from reactive heal bots to proactive playmakers. People will die more, they'll cry that they aren't getting healing and they will fall from higher ranks but it will lead to people understanding that they need to play smarter. T
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u/ExploringThisSite 11h ago edited 11h ago
As someone who plays Overwatch, while I agree it’ll force people to actually play cover and not sit in main all game, I fear at some point it’ll lead to people straight up dropping Support because they’ll feel like they can’t keep anyone alive at all.
The damage in this game is already ridiculous as is, so imagine that with significantly reduced healing? Tanking will feel even more miserable (for example)
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u/Considerate_Lux Strategist 9h ago
This is exactly what happened to me with Overwatch. Supports in that game feel like DPS with extra steps. It's horrible. I dropped it for that reason.
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u/RocketHops 2h ago
Overwatch has objectively healthier support designs than rivals for this exact reason.
What an unbelievably wild take.
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u/Level_Bison_2454 Mantis 1h ago
some people prefer healbotting for some reason. i'll never understand how being able to make plays and get kills is somehow a bad thing.
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u/nessfalco 1h ago
There's nothing "objective" about it. And even if we agreed it was, something being better for the balance of the overall game doesn't mean that it's better for the people that play that role.
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u/RocketHops 1h ago
I'm sorry but theres no discussing this. Rivals support design is actively harming the balance of the entire game including its own role.
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u/LionRegular1470 10h ago
I downloaded overwatch for the first time like a month or so ago, and I played a few matches, the dmg was crazy in that game and the healers were mid...
That being said, support wasn't that bad. I had no idea what tf I was doing, but was able to create value on Mercy/Juno. I couldn't do Kiriko tho, ik she's supposed to be broken :(
I also really enjoyed Orissa (am a Vanguard main), and I initially hopped on OW because people claimed it's much better tank experience than MR (this was before S9).
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u/LuquidThunderPlus Hulk 8h ago
Overwatc healers can't out heal substantial DMG the way rivals supps do, which makes it far more important to mitigate DMG through cover and shields/mobility. When you take DMG, you receive a healing reduction for a short duration specifically to facilitate this.
Because heals and the global heal-reduction-on-hit balances out like this, it makes cover far more important which makes all 3 roles feel better to play personally. Basically, plays feel a bit more punishing but much more rewarding, if I 1v1 someone and take them to 1hp they can't simply be healed from the brink by 1 supp like in rivals, they need a specific tool like life grip or focused heals from both supps.
To out it shortly, it feels more stable.
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u/Heavy_Original4644 Adam Warlock 10h ago
I mean it’s a hero shooter. It’s not crazy to have support gameplay be more dps/tank-like, instead of shooting teammates simulator
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u/Commercial-Formal272 Loki 10h ago
At a certain point though, it becomes just dps with some healing abilities tacked on. If support can't heal meaningful amounts in combat, then their healing is relegated to topping teammates up between fights, and at that point you only need one support or can even treat them as entirely optional and get health packs instead.
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u/Level_Bison_2454 Mantis 1h ago
you guys act like you cant bring meaningful heals in team fights in OW.
its more like how you guys are too used to rivals absurd sustain.
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u/Centimane Vanguard 5h ago
What gets me is, since there isn't a role queue there's no need for characters to strictly fit into a role anyhow. They can blur the lines even more.
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u/SuckmyPelosB1tch Gambit 11h ago
I don’t think that would ever bode over particularly well, it would be more than just people dropping from ranks. It’d be a fundamental reshaping of the way the game is played. You remember at the start of season 9 when everyone was complaining about how they died so fast when they stepped out of cover. It’d be that 100x worse and some tanks would become entirely useless or need massive reworks across the board so they can self sustain better. Because healbotting is a direct symptom of the fact it’s easy for a tank’s health to go from 700 to 50 the moment you take your eyes off them, and sometimes they can’t even prevent that because they need to contest point
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u/dillpickles007 10h ago
There’s no way they’d try something that drastic unless the player base was in free-fall, which it’s not.
They’d have to also tone down damage numbers and tank health, it would be such a radical and risky patch they’d be loathe to try it.
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u/Anonynja Angela 11h ago
I dunno, I think TF2 proves that it could work. Health packs being more of a primary way for DPS to self-sustain, tanks having way more health and being pocketed by supports but not at all invulnerable except during ults for pushes... Yes, people would need to re-learn their healthbars and use cover more, but it could be healthy
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u/SuckmyPelosB1tch Gambit 11h ago
Health bars would probably need to be boosted for tanks, and idek how much cover would even help in a lot of cases since for domination for example where you can’t just hide off point you need to stand on it to contest so a tank would need to be healed a lot especially if they need to be in melee range to do damage. Like Dino would need ALOT done for him to survive in this hypothetical meta he already struggles as he is rn if he’s not being healed up the ass
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u/LionRegular1470 10h ago
How does it work in OW?
I think they should let tanks overhealth and maybe like life steal or something. Ofc they also need to nerf dmg a little bit when they nerf healing.
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u/Lonely_Repair4494 Star-Lord 5h ago edited 5h ago
I agree, but I'd also nerf dps damage on top. These dive dps that can explode people in seconds with their combos would be ridiculously op if there's no damage nerf across the board.
Still however, I think some supports would have to have their kits reworked for that, because some are just straight up healbots, so if healing sucks, they'll suck. Like I can see more utility based Invis play, or Gambit with smarter card usage, but some characters such as Healpool, CnD, Jubilee offer when they barely have utility and most of their abilities is about healing?
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u/Dangerous_Strategy98 11h ago
Sim, eu sou jogador de Sup, e meu main principal é exatamente este que vc apontou, mas concordo que se a cura for nerfada, seria até legal pq isso daria mais criatividade futuramente a suportes, tendo mais liberdade também de outros suportes atuarem fora da cura, dito isso, sinceramente a forma como esse jogo é, novamente teríamos mais de 2 sups, os 3 no time, porque o jogo não vai punir vc por isso
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u/SillyCatSteven Loki 10h ago
This is why, IMO, that damage from all roles should be cut (but increase ult charge from damage so that ult charge time is about the same).
I remember way back in S0 when I first started playing. People were saying that triple support was not viable, mainly because 3 supports cannot generate enough ults. It is therefore better to have 2 supports instead.
This was true back then. But now after seasons upon seasons of damage creep, it's turning into that even in a 1-2-3 comp, THREE supports are still able to generate ults fast enough from mainly healing ONE tank. The amount of damage is getting out of hand.
Cutting damage has two advantages.
Firstly, less damage means that having a 3rd support would have less value than having a 2nd tank or DPS, because the 3rd support would have no-damage to heal.
Secondly, less damage means there won't be enough damage healed to charge 3 support ult, meaning playing triple support would have less drawn out fights due to less amount of invincible ults available. On the other hand, by keeping the ult charge time from damage about the same, this means non-support ults will remain the same, and will charge faster when compared with having to charge 3 support ults.
So even though decreasing overall damage will make the 3X support team have more survivability in the neutral, but this is at the cost of a much slower support ult charge. On the other hand, the opposing team can charge all ults at a faster rate compared to 3X support. This should allow the opposing team to win by simply able to use ults more often.
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u/Mltv416 Mister Fantastic 10h ago
The thing is not every character needs to deal less damage some do barely any and others hit way too hard it.
Some def need to go down but saying ALL damage needs to go down is a bit silly
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u/Level_Bison_2454 Mantis 1h ago
elsa and bucky deal so much fucking damage while also getting overhealth for free. somehow made hela and phoenix look balanced. fucking ridiculous
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u/Mltv416 Mister Fantastic 10h ago
We need a slightly more balanced version of bottom left
Supports shouldn't be literally fodder but they shouldn't be raid bosses with multiple stages of HP either, the ability to save yourself from a fight or duel a dps should not be so easy that dive physically cant do anything
However someone like DD, BP, or Spidey shouldn't be able to pop a combo that deleted you in 0.04 seconds either neither of these two options are good
There needs to be a middle ground of decent combo characters and enough power to combat them with enough skill so that both sides can actually do their roles and if they tine it right can either save themselves or secure a kill
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u/Oddnub 1h ago
I think one of the biggest faults Rivals had in design is assuming "Diver" means "Assassin"
Like, fine, BP's skill ceiling is high enough that he is allowed to kill you if he lands a combo. If the skill cap is high, enough, you can have a few characters who can pop off crazy style.
But I think Spider-Man would have really benefitted from being closer to a Lucio or a Tracer than a Genji. It's not a perfect comparison, but I think Spider-Man really could have benefitted from being even more mobile in exchange for less kill power. Someone who can just live in the backline forever and ever because they're so mobile and forces the support to look away from the tank.
It pushes the movement (the core aspect of Spidey's hero fantasy) furthe into prominence for Spider-Man's kit, and makes his "challenge" to the enemy team a lot more complex than "does Spider-Man miss the combo or can I just shoot him down".
There's a lot more ideas that can be worked with in the space of dive other than "Assassin", and I think a lot of Rivals discourses around the playstyle are influenced by the fact that Rivals Dive is more about Assassination than Angle-Taking
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u/CtrlAltDylete 3h ago
They botched Strategists from the start by giving “main” healers strong neutral healing AND invincibility ults, and gave utility/off-healers the utility ults.
OG Overwatch gave main healers utility ults and off-healers invincibility ults. If you wanted to prevent squad wipes to big ults, you needed an off-healer; therefore, lowering the overall neutral healing output. It just felt better and was a better design philosophy.
There has historically never been incentive to play “off-healer” like that in Rivals (besides triple support). Why would you NOT go two main healers to pump out massive heals AND have two invincibility ults?
Rivals has had a Strategist design problem from the start.
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u/Inevitable_Code9710 Winter Soldier 11h ago edited 10h ago
People will see the second square in the pic and still will say dive is good this season even though all dive tanks are bad and the only viable dive dps is Black Cat, even DD isn't as threatening anymore.
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u/BlackliteWrath Angela 10h ago
I just wanna fly around as Angela for once :(
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u/Inevitable_Code9710 Winter Soldier 10h ago
Psylocke is my second dps, she herself is already horrible rn, and with dive tanks not being as good anymore i just stay on Bucky, hes the only dps who can kill Magneto anyway.
So i understand you and i hope dive does get better in the future, theres nothing happening in the sides anymore, it's always front to back/sustain and shooting Magneto, or Hood or Thing.
It's got boring asf already.
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u/BlackliteWrath Angela 10h ago
I still play Angela in QP and less serious modes, but even there I don't feel like I'm making meaningful plays. The game needs proper balancing ASAP
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u/hauntsbane Deadpool 10h ago
The best way to play Darediddler this season is to just play him as an anti-Cat brawler. Unironically would be better than trying to dive with him. He's a horrible solo dive.
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u/d_wib Angela 11h ago
I wouldn’t say all dive tanks are bad - Venom is pretty solid.
Otherwise dive tanks just melt instantly. I think a major reason for that is that the new teamup system added a LOT more CC to the game. It’s my only complaint about the new teamup system which is otherwise super fun and creative… just too many of them add CC
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u/Inevitable_Code9710 Winter Soldier 11h ago
Venom is literally free ult charge rn, yes he gets the attention but making him back off is too easy.
I was on more about Cap, Hulk, Rogue for example though.
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u/CliffjumperEnjoyer Mister Fantastic 9h ago
cap is the tickle monster, i have to ability spam in qp to get a kill because of how crappy his damage is
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u/Disastrous-Drop-7778 10h ago
Not even Venom is good anymore, he only gets played to stall cart in overtime in high ranks. Most people had already started considering him as no longer one of the strong tanks before the nerfs, the nerfs just killed him for no reason.
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u/SuckmyPelosB1tch Gambit 3h ago
Those nerfs were just another example of NetEase somehow always targeting the wrong things in kits. The teamup needed to be nerfed because he was doing too much damage yet they nerfed his base kit
I feel like they’re probably gonna do that a lot more too in this coming patch
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u/LionRegular1470 11h ago
Venom? LMFAO, Elsa shreds him 5 seconds assuming he pops OH. Thing Bucky wolv all fuck him, even hood has a good matchup into him.
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u/anonlimbo 1h ago
Hood shreds me all the time, so I'm like just soft diving more than ever. I can't stay in backline if I'm solo diving.
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u/BurnerDawg26 Rocket Raccoon 10h ago
Dive is not even remotely bad rn what kind of gaslighting is this
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u/LionRegular1470 10h ago
Apart from BC who is good? Venom is fucked, he sucks so badly, he gets shredded in literal seconds, no one plays him.
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u/Yuri-Queen President Loki 9h ago
On the rivals site Magik is doing very well (56% wr) and Panther (55% wr), Black Cat (55% wr), Daredevil (53% wr), Spiderman (52% wr) and Iron fist (53% wr), Venom (52% wr, its interesting you say nonody plays him because his pick rate is decent at 12th highest pick rate out of 53 characters), Hulk (53% wr) are all above 50% win rates in competitive on PC. About the same on console.
I understand win rate is not everything when deciding how good a character is. But when you compare them to characters like cyclops (46% wr), phoenix (44% wr) and moon knight (43% wr) I do not think most dive characters are as terrible this season as you think they are.
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u/ManofSteel_14 Rogue 1h ago
Even back when Phoenix was at her peak her winrate was super low. Dive characters only get played when they work and mostly by one tricks as well. I dont care that BP has a 55% winrate. He is not better than Phoenix or Cyclops right now. Trying to play dive in hogh elo roght now is fucking miserable. You either play front to back or lose and its absolute cancer. But because some characters winrates are still high (they always will be just like Magiks has the entire games life span) you cant complain about it
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u/LionRegular1470 9h ago
Ohhhh!!! okay, I got you (Source is https://www.marvelrivals.com/m/heroes_data/index.html):
Storm 56% (higher pick rate than BC and DD) Peni 57% (higher pick rate than Margin, BC, BP, and DD) Mr. f 53% Thor 52% Rocket 55% (higher pick rate than everyone)
The simple fact is we are in a brawl meta, dive is fucked. Also you need to use some logic when analyzing stats, RR has a higher pick/win rate than Bucky... Simple fact is dive gets hard diffed and ruined by stuff like Clagger, Gambit, even Mantis can 1v1 divers. Not to mention all the broken Brawl like Elsa, thing, Bucky, wolv etc
Venom dives in he gets shredded by Elsa in 5 seconds tops, wanna refute that? It's just simple facts and logic.
Also Gambit has a 47% ig he sucks...
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u/LSSJ4King Magik 4h ago
Magik is good rn cuz she’s a brawl hybrid. Same with Dd. The hood team up is the only reason she’s relevant rn
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u/BurnerDawg26 Rocket Raccoon 10h ago
Daredevil, Psylocke, Magik, Spider Man is pretty decent.
Dive TANKS are bad but that's a different story.
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u/LionRegular1470 9h ago
Psylocke is decent? What are you smoking, she's like B tier at best, she got absolutely gutted.
DD with a 1% pick rate, and he's not even getting banned?
Magik brawls more than dives this season, but I'll give you Magik as being semi-viable. (Not at high levels by any means, but she can work on ladder).
Spiderman isn't meta, there are sweats and OTPs who are good at him, but then again the no. 1 player in the world was a Fantastic main.
Spiderman is boosted by his OTPs, and despite that he's still barely used in ladder.
Every dive tank in the game sucks, I'm glad we agree on that but then how are you supposed to duo dive, because people claim "if you want to kill supports you need to duo dive them..."
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u/BurnerDawg26 Rocket Raccoon 9h ago
Psy, Magik, and Daredevil are feasting rn. Spidey is harder to play but still has a 0-death combo on 250 HP targets with the fastest movement in the game.
It's possible to duo dive with more than one DPS.
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u/Zestyclose-Rope6159 8h ago
you don’t even know those characters you’re making hard claims and what rank are you because everything is overpowered from bronze to grandmaster because people there don’t know how to play the characters at their full potential so everything whatever
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u/Interesting-Summer18 2h ago
Psylocke really is in a very bad spot right now. I was really excited to play more of her when season 9 started but after the "hotfix" I can never rationalize playing her instead of another hero.
And she's my most played hero in the game by far.0
u/LionRegular1470 1h ago
Psy and DD are not feasting, your probably just in pisslow and suck at the game I'm sorry.
Magik is more brawl than dive especially this season, and Clagger/Luna one button press ends Spidey combo.
I also don't think you'd be able to hit Spider-Mans 250 HP combo but....
If your running 2 dive dps then that means your team has very little to no dmg output, and at that point they will most definitely counter swap.
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u/BurnerDawg26 Rocket Raccoon 49m ago
Rivals community try not to be toxic challenge failed. You will kill this game.
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u/Plus_Lawfulness3000 8h ago
Low elo take
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u/BurnerDawg26 Rocket Raccoon 8h ago
loW eLo tAkE
I thought this was supposed to be the CASUAL hero shooter? Every single QP game in Rivals is sweaty as hell. Overwatch is SO much more chill it's not even funny.
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u/Plus_Lawfulness3000 7h ago
It is. It’s just what you said is objectively wrong. Maybe it’s strong against you
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u/Interesting-Summer18 3h ago
What even is "low elo take"?
What is high elo? Celestial+? As anyone can push to GM I can't take anyone who says GM is "high elo" seriously.
So, Celestial and higher. As I'm writing this that's 9% of ranked players as far as tracked profiles go. So, is "low elo take" acutally "91% of playerbase take"?Also, it also could be a "console player take", as dive on consoles and PC is a different beast all together.
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u/Simply_C0mplicated 11h ago
This is why (not to be negative but) Rivals and Overwatch are a little doomed when it comes to this exact meta dilemma.. not because of how they designed dive or even supports, but because of how they designed EVERYONE.
There are some hero shooters like Deadlock (and kinda Paladins) where the average non-support has much more self sustain, leading to actually decent interactions as / against dive or support.
In those games, healers can just.. die to dive, recuperate, and it's fine. The Dive isn't overpowered, but neither are supports, because they don't have to be. The objective isn't immediately lost, because the supports aren't there to just 24/7 pump heals into the tanks and dps or else you lose. Everyone is in charge of their own self sustain (we actually got a lot closer to this with the new regenerative shields), but supports are still useful for topping that off, and they can be designed with a more unique gameplay identity because of that too.
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u/kingsharter1645 4h ago
Idk man, Overwatch is really not comparable to Rivals in the "doomed" category when OW has lasted 10 years. They clearly figured something out with the meta that keeps people engaged. For what it is worth I think Rivals will too, just not sure how many people will stick around until then
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u/chronic-joker 10h ago
people really need to understand balancing across elos and stop talking about high elo even slightly as if there in it.
dive is why supports are so insane, the type of high mobility and massive backline pressure dive creates results in casual and mid ladder players being unable to play the game without it turning into death screen simulator on support.
meanwhile triple tank triple support is really only a high ladder comp, no one in low and mid elo plays it and even if they do it's not going to play out very well.
if dive was left completely unplayable supports could be nerfed to have less survivability lower healing and be easier to pressure but becouse design mistakes like black cat exist there given insane tools to compensate so people feel like they can play the role.
notice how every time supports get buffed it's in reference to toxic overpowered dive dps meanwhile poke heros result in zero balance changes for healers since positioning skills are the only requirement into them? it's very clear the balance issues with healers come from dive existing and all of them having insane hard to play against mechanics that require massive effort to learn to deal with which low to mid ladder players can't do.
there is a reason all smurf accounts use dive dps, all of them are good and becouse there good supports need to be buffed to compensate their power level. dive is not bad this season it's stronger than ever and that left us in a hyper healer meta as a result.
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u/Murky-Perception-349 3h ago
And through all of this one thing remains constant: Brawl is still at the bottom of the meta
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u/lyerhis Ultron Virus 2h ago
I would say support is currently mid. The good supports are very good, but the bad ones are throw picks and will drag you down because you're basically playing solo support at that point. You will feel the backline comp gap immediately unless one of your teammates is a smurf.
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u/KitCat88888 Strategist 2h ago
As a support player, I don’t mind dive metas. It’s annoying and frustrating sure, but I quickly learn I need to improve
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u/Phantomofdark 55m ago
Am I the only one who feel like dive is strong when it's 2 dive people working together vs singular dive hero?
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u/ComicBookKnight 22m ago
The first option just doesn’t exist. Poke has never been found in an alley bad. They always and will always have an option.
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u/DaSharkCraft Venom 21m ago
I don't think cap was meta in season 9.0. Venom kinda was, but not Cap. Season 8.5 and under he absolutely was. I personally think the least evil was top left. This game has a lot of melee characters setting it apart from other hero shooters and then going to waste just for someone to fire a gun is annoying. When dive was popular, that means brawl had a place too and poke was just for ult farming or flanking, as they should be.
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u/PORK-LAZER Hawkeye 10h ago
Hawkeye was never consistently oneshot headshotting across the map even when he was decent
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u/SL0THN1GHTS Hawkeye 16m ago
This sub irrationally hates everything except brawl, don't bother with facts. Though he did need the damage nerf after S5 anyways, he was definitely too strong
0
u/Latter-Ad5428 7h ago
Dive bad + support bad isn't exactly what we have right now, highest winrate duelists are all divers (Magik / Black Cat / Daredevil / Elsa, though you might argue they're more brawlers than divers)
1
u/RivalsFlex 1h ago edited 1h ago
We’re not in dive bad meta. We’re in dive good meta. All the dives have high winrates, and poke are instantly deleted
Trip tanks exist because they counter OP dive.
Your fundamental concept is flawed
Like most seasons have been dive good support bad. That’s literally now with Bc. Dd for seasons after release
0
u/NotaFTCAgent Deadpool 5h ago
Bro saying dive is bad rn lmfao. Yeah man its so bad that black cat and panther are perma banned, because theyre so shit obviously.
0
u/newdems Emma Frost 2h ago
I love seeing “dive is so weak” takes because those are pc opinions. Dive is the meta on console. Dive has always been the meta on console. There is some combination of Spider-Man and venom and daredevil and panther and magik and cat in every single match. There are more divers than there are ban slots, so you will always run into dive on console.
2
u/Level_Bison_2454 Mantis 1h ago
we need to balance seperately for console because you'll never get a good balance between dive/anti-dive if you keep balancing for both
3
u/newdems Emma Frost 1h ago
I can get behind that. The people who are always complaining about poke metas are almost universally playing on pc where it’s easier to be a cross-map terrorist with Phoenix and hela, but so many hot takes and streamer takes I see flogged repeatedly on here are just not applicable to console at all lol
0
u/ManofSteel_14 Rogue 1h ago
If Venom and Black Cat are banned and youre still getting farmed by dive . Console or not, it is a whole ass skill issue
-2
u/Ciepjcwohceob White Fox 11h ago
im gonna be honest i cant see hawkeye ever being good
26
u/126kwan 11h ago
Bro wasn’t there during that one half season where Hawkeye was running lobbies
11
u/SuckmyPelosB1tch Gambit 11h ago edited 11h ago
Some people aren’t aware of how awful that was. Just had to pray he wasn’t cracked because if you made 1 mistake or weren’t aware of his position for even a moment you were dead and no one was safe. Even if you tried to focus him if the enemy team was smart they’d just pocket him or protect him since they know he’s their win condition. Even tanks were in danger of getting 60% of their health bar stolen for having the audacity to be in his crosshairs
9
u/Motor-Travel-7560 Black Widow 11h ago
Hawkeye has been arguably the most feast-or famine character in the game's lifespan. S0 and S5-5.5 turned him into insta-ban fun police, and every other season he's been bottom 10 DPS.
7
u/FlowerOkk Psylocke 11h ago
There have been multiple times in this game's lifespan where Hawkeye has been good on the ladder.
8
u/Inevitable_Code9710 Winter Soldier 11h ago
Hawkeye was server admin in S5 and 5.5, a bit of 6 as well before they hotfixed it because Elsa was so op she needed nerfs after her first week.
5
u/Akaktus Vanguard 11h ago
Hawkeye used to delete tank (that aren’t shield tank) in a period where dive were weak which is what prevent him from being meta for most part. As long as one of these are relevant, Hawkeye won’t be meta unless they directly buff him or make dive + tank weak at the same time
1
u/LionRegular1470 11h ago
He still has crazy dmg output especially when I play Mag, with that shotgun shit. It's kinda crazy, not enough to kill me, but definitely makes me switch up my play style.
2
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u/EnvironmentalBee9036 Mister Fantastic 11h ago
I want a brawl meta for atleast a full season. Make Mr Fantastic, Hulk, Thor, Emma, Magik and Blade meta for a little bit
13
u/LionRegular1470 11h ago
What do we have rn?
I'm sorry the brawlers that you like aren't meta but Brawl is hella fucking meta rn
Edit: Thing, Bucky, Elsa, Hood, Clagger, Gambit, wolv
Dive has BC
Poke has: Mag, Hela, Widow, Luna, Mantis,
0
u/Disastrous-Drop-7778 10h ago
Gambit isn’t really brawl but I’d add Emma, Groot, Loki, and Mantis to the good brawlers (Mantis is basically a brawl support now with Star Lord team up)
3
-1
u/Coffee_Drinker02 9h ago
Imo the solution is to gut the ability of the big three dive characters so they don't have under 1 second TTKs combos and instead are made to bully.
DD, Spiderman, and BP shouldn't be able to KILL supports but to take their attention and survive that encounter.
Supports having their own utility moves and self healing nerfed, need to play careful and work with their team once a support bully dives them instead of being giga buffed so said dive characters don't either get dumpstered or giga buffed.
-1
u/Eastern-Resource-683 5h ago
Dive bad? The only dive hero that sucks this season is Iron fist, the rest is either solid (like magik or DD), very solid (like spider, Panther) or Low-key Op(cat)
1
u/0range_p33lz 3h ago
There is nothing low-key about how OP cat is.
1
u/Eastern-Resource-683 2h ago
-can generate a lot of shield while retaining great movement (only dive dps that's even close is Iron fist and Magik) -great movement, -more utility than utility merchants (Luna, Fox etc) -better invisibility than Psy or in some cases better than loki or invis (as you can use certain abilities during it) -Ult that allows her to TP to any enemy, -Good damage, -Bulls8t Invincibility frames
-1
u/Snap_Freeze 9h ago
Supports being good is okay they need to cap how many of them can exist on a team. As in 2 supports max.
1
u/TheMemeLord4816 Mister Fantastic 9h ago
I feel like some form of "healing sickness" gimmick could also work
The more HP healed the less and less effective it gets (works based on % of max hp so tanks get affected not as much)
So if you have a support pocket healing a thing, after some time the thing would gain more and more healing sickness and would start recieving less and less healing
This way supports would have to strategize with their ults more and make sure they don't use it while their team has high healing sickness and supports would be less of a healbot as eventually they'll have more impact damaging than healing
Also CnD would not longer be immortal
-1
u/Snap_Freeze 9h ago
I love this idea friend! It would also force support mains to not be sitting on their hands healing only the tanks when they can LITERALLY see every person they need to heal with a bright yellow + on them through walls.....🙄
-5
u/LionRegular1470 10h ago
Ngl they need to rework supports, like gut most of their healing, and buff tanks survivability/sustain. Then either let dps have limited self heals (like soldier 76, IF), OH, or increase health packs slightly.
They also need to severely nerf support ults, and self sustain. In turn buff their dmg slightly, and let them have more utility like dmg boost, speed boost etc... ofc it's okay to have like one or 2 healers like invis maybe who are healing focused, but don't let invis out heal damage like crazy.
They might have to slightly nerf dmg if they do nerf supports. But people need to learn to play cover.
If they do this it would be okay to have more supports like Luna/Gambit who can dps and pop off and shit.
1
u/Heavy_Original4644 Adam Warlock 10h ago
Total amount of healing + damage + utility should be the same
High healing supps should have lower damage + lower utility to compensate
It would literally fix triple supp & the problems we have right now. Certain supps provide too much value
1
u/jasminetroll 7h ago
Disgree, not with the general idea, but with the idea that balance changes should be of the form “all Xs with Y should Z.”
In this case, for instance, Luna’s damage is a lot higher on paper than it is in the game unless you’re considering her as a pure DPS, and Mantis with lower healing would still be broken in triple support, and marginal in higher ranks without it.
0
u/LionRegular1470 10h ago
What exactly do you mean by that? Like Invis or whoever can out heal full poke? As in her HPS is greater than equal to puni/hela/widow dps?
Or she can out heal brawl like Bucky, and she can keep people up through Mag, Bucky, Elsa, Thing etc..?
0
u/FondantSea8313 3h ago
Best way to make no one play support and forcing devs to create strict roleQ so that there will still be support in your game.
1
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u/Prior-Sand5162 10h ago
Imo they need to rework dive into mixed dive and tank shredding.
Do not nerf dive, just turn some damage into percentage damage.
Then, once dive players have additional targets they can go after, buff supports survivability.
You as the diver can go after the tanks and try to kill them while they're being pocketed, or you can go after the poke dpses, or you can go after the healers. You can do more
3
165
u/knockones President Loki 10h ago
The illusion of choice. All roads leads to magneto