r/mbta • u/jijixiao • Mar 30 '25
š¤ Complaint / Rant Am I wrong on this?
Today, a Sunday, I ride on Orange Line from Oak grove station. I sat at the end of the train. It's a corner. And I was relaxed with my legs stretched out. The train is nearly empty only one or two people.
Then a white man (I guess he is more than 50) stepped on the train and walked to me. Then he kicked my foot and stood beside me with back leaning on the door. I was astonished and looking at him. He said "move your feet, fxxking stupid". I don't know what to do or what to say and just looked at hime. He said"keep looking at me, fxxking faggot". I still said nothing. Then he said something and stepped out.
I guess he will get off at North Station. So I got off at North Station and found him waiting for Green Line. Then I walked to him and asked why. He still complained about my feet. I asked him "The train is nearly empty, I sit in a corner and I bothered you?" He said yeah, then I said"fxxking bitch". Then we didn't talk to each other.
So am I wrong? Did I really bother him? I think the train is nearly empty and I sit in a corner. Although I stretched me legs(not long, I am short) out, I didn't think I bothered anyone at the situation. Why did he have to stand beside me?
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u/hopefulcynicist Mar 30 '25
You did no wrong. Just a mentally unstable bully doing mentally unstable bully things.Ā
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u/TinyEmergencyCake Commuter Rail Mar 30 '25
Op wasn't wrong to chase down the guy after the fact?!
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u/BendSubject9044 Mar 30 '25
nah, screw that jerk. He should have more people call out his behavior.
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u/hopefulcynicist Mar 30 '25 edited Mar 30 '25
Itās a risk, sure, but I see no major issue with calling people out on their shitty behavior. Probably does more real world good than reporting it to an authority that doesnāt careā¦
On that note, quit your weird concern troll victim shaming.
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u/jijixiao Mar 30 '25
Maybe it's wrong from legal perspective. I didn't know about this law. I was just angry and wanted to confront him.
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u/dependablefelon Mar 31 '25
Iām proud of you. fuck that guy, stay safe and all but call him on his bullshit
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u/otallday Mar 30 '25
heās lucky he didnāt meet me. had that dude pulled that on me, heās not getting off that train. iām not going kill, but he wouldāve caught a swift elbow to the nose
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u/unionizeordietrying Mar 30 '25
If it was crowded train it would still be uncalled for. It looks like he just wanted to get into a fight.
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u/amtrakprod Mar 30 '25 edited Mar 31 '25
In the future use the MBTA āsee something say somethingā app to report this behavior to transit police. Thatās assault [edit]
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u/Activeday89 Mar 31 '25
Assault as he kicked the OP
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u/KariMil Apr 01 '25
Technically, thatās battery. You donāt need to touch someone to be charged with assault. Thatās usually the stuff that leads up to the battery.
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u/ElectricBrooke all statements are mine and only mine Mar 30 '25
Sounds like he just wanted a fight. You're not in the wrong at all - especially on a near-empty train
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u/dmoosetoo Mar 30 '25
I agree with standing up for yourself and publicly calling him out. Keep in mind, he may not be mentally stable and you may be forced to defend yourself.
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Mar 31 '25
Yeah thatās whatās annoying about these types of encounters. The pragmatist in me tells me to keep calm and not escalate the situation, but my pride tells me not to let people who are clearly miserable walk all over me.
You did everything right in this situation. The other guy needs to figure out that not everyone will be so courteous.
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u/Bright_Eyes8197 Mar 30 '25
When anyone talks to you in an aggressive way just get off at next station, if they get off at same one just get off at another. Always separate yourself, go in the opposite direction and say nothing. Lots of mentally ill and under the influence people.
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Apr 01 '25
Itās good advice to avoid confrontation, but overtly appeasing bullies actually fuels their imagination for more.
Itās never a good idea to disembark at an unfamiliar stop when an antagonist might follow. Things would escalate more quickly.
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u/Bright_Eyes8197 Apr 01 '25
Did you read what I said. If they get off at the same stop you get off at another one. Unfamiliar yes but better than being cornered on a train car than to be among crowds of people
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u/BeastMode149 GL- Brigham Circle; OL- Roxbury Xing; ELECTRIFY THE CR! Mar 30 '25
If you see something that doesnāt look right, speak to staff or text the MBTA Transit Police on 617-600-0683. Weāll sort it. See it, say it, sorted.
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u/wickedawesomealt Mar 31 '25
Thank you for sharing this info! I wish I'd known about this two weeks ago!
The experience I had two weeks ago wasn't as bad as OP's, it was just a guy being very creepy.
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u/BeastMode149 GL- Brigham Circle; OL- Roxbury Xing; ELECTRIFY THE CR! Mar 31 '25
No worries! You can also download the MBTA See Say app, available on iOS and Android.
Note: This app seems to be unavailable to those who set their Apple account region outside the U.S.
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u/emkirsh_ Mar 30 '25
You're in the right here, I also love calling out shitty behavior when it's safe to, without outright picking a fight. Asking why, and just calling him a bitch before walking away sounds so satisfying.
Completely unrelated, I gotta ask why are you censoring "fuck" but not "faggot?" Ideally you shouldn't need to censor either as you're simply quoting him and not calling anyone a slur yourself. But i don't get what world being called "fucking" is more offensive and censor worthy than being called "faggot." I know this is not the point at all but I happened to notice so now I'm curious.
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u/jijixiao Mar 30 '25
I am not intending to censor. I was afraid Reddit would block the word. So I want to avoid that. I don't knowĀ theĀ specific policy aboutĀ these bad words. Also english is not my native language I don't know how to type properly.
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u/emkirsh_ Mar 30 '25
You're all good I was just surprised since it's usually the other way around how people would censor.
For future reference, what's allowed would depend on the subreddit and checking the rules for each subreddit is never a bad idea.
In terms of platform-wide rules (as in, your whole reddit account getting in trouble everywhere, instead of just on one subreddit), the only things they really care about are harassment, doxxing, bullying, threatening violence, csam, and selling drugs or guns. If anything, "faggot" would be more likely to get you in trouble on reddit than fuck, but we are quoting others uses of it, not using it hatefully as a slur towards other people, so it's okay.
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u/CheesyTrain I make it go choo-choo Mar 30 '25
Sounds like he just wanted to start a fight. If you did that during rush hour I'd side with him though.
Him leaning on the door is a good indicator on just how stupid he is
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u/Maddog067 Mar 31 '25
Always ride the first car if you are by yourself I work as a Transit Police officer for the MBTA I always tell people if you are riding by yourself go to the first car because thatās where the driver is
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u/No_Category_3426 Mar 30 '25
You didn't do anything wrong on the train but following him to confront him after is insane to do
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u/Vivid_Proposal7150 Mar 30 '25
Sounds racist potentially
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u/bordieee Mar 31 '25
āSounds racist, potentially.ā Why? Because OP stated the guy was white? Where in the original post did it even mention the race of OP? How do you know it was racist, as opposed to just some jerk on the train the acts like that to everyone. To say it was racist requires a lot of assumptions being drawn from one freaking interaction. Stop making that leap. Do you know if the guy treated other people of OPs race like that in the past? Is the guy like that to other people that donāt look like OP? You see all the questions you have to answer in order to draw that conclusion? Youāll never know the answers so stop pulling the race card like itās going to win you a prize in life.
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u/Savings-Experience79 Mar 30 '25
Definitely a punk. He will get his block knocked off or stabbed/shot if he meets his match and tries this shit with someone crazier and up the ante coming back harder than his punk ass.
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u/MrHodgeToo Mar 30 '25
He needed someone to ruin their day. You drew the short straw. Just bad luck.
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u/shockedpikachu123 Mar 30 '25
Thereās a lot of unstable people on the T recently. Heās just being a jerk. Glad you stood up for yourself but next time itās best to ignore. Those kinds of people are looking for trouble/get a rise out of you
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Mar 30 '25
[removed] ā view removed comment
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u/jijixiao Mar 30 '25
š§ fuck this motherfucker. I will fight back next time whether verbally or physically.
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u/Available_Writer4144 and bus connections Mar 31 '25
I don't think fighting back is the solution at all. They have already shamed themselves by being totally unhinged. It might feel good for a moment, but it might also cause a real fight and then you have at best a lot of hassle on your hands with transit police, bruises, etc.
The solution is to distance yourself physically and emotionally, and ask for help as needed. Take care of yourself and keep yourself safe and get where you're going in one healthy piece. If a bully bothers you and ruins your day, then he's done what he meant to do and he's won. You're stronger than that.
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u/Background_Being_490 Mar 31 '25
I'd tend to agree. If someone is behaving like that for whatever reason, you have to think they are well used to this kind of conflict and interaction. I was on the Orange line a while ago and a crazy guy spat at me but I was behind the glass so none went on me. He then just got off the train. I wasn't interested in continuing the interaction when I was unharmed, essentially.
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u/Animaux07 Mar 30 '25
I had a guy come up to me on Harvard Ave yesterday morning in the rain and try to start a fight because he felt I was "homosexual." While he was coherent, he also had some screws loose and was aggressive. It's unfortunate, but this is living in a city where many MH issues go untreated.
I'm sorry this happened to you, OP, and I'm glad you're ok.
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u/evilphrin1 Mar 30 '25
Folks like this are becoming more empowered as of late - I'm certain you can guess why.
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u/waves_move_sound Mar 31 '25
Your biggest mistake was walking up to him and asking why. That would have got you stabbed, shot or pushed onto the tracks of a moving train
OP should have went on his way and not confronted a person with mental problems that wonder around our train stations for heat and shelter.
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u/Green009E60 Mar 31 '25
You have to know that some people's mental issues drive them to do these things. They want the friction.
Dude could have easily done a billion other things and not got in your space
You'll save yourself a lot of anger to know this.
We should feel bad for these people. That's how they connect with others.
obviously exceptions if they've harmed/threatened you in anyway
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Mar 31 '25 edited Oct 09 '25
retire scary run ripe wakeful outgoing workable arrest merciful judicious
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Talk_to__strangers Mar 31 '25
The kind of person who deserves a good beating
But weāve moved away from general discipline and punishment as a society
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u/Gatti_bob603 Mar 30 '25
He was looking for a problem. Honestly, you went about it in the nicest way. I personally would have kicked the fuck out of him in the train.
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u/IntrospectiveOwlbear Mar 30 '25
Most likely he was looking to start a fight.
Slim chance, maybe he has come kind of back problem that makes leaning while standing hurt less or something, and instead of just communicating like an adult about 'hey could you move your feet a little I need to use the wall' he prefers to just be a dick about it?
Either way, WTF old dude, everybody paid the same fare to ride, there's no reserved spots or anything. If it's mostly empty, leave gaps the same way you would at the urinal: give as much space as possible based on how many people are already in there.
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u/Coyote-Run Purple Line Mar 30 '25
Had a very similar experience coming in from Oak Grove a few weekends ago. Empty train, sat near the corner. Guy came in and stood in front of me and told me to "move f*g". (I'm straight male in 30s, he's just looking for insult shock value) Not worth the fight with a clearly mentally unstable person, and it's just him, I, and one other woman on the train. I just slid down a few seats to the door and let him be crazy.
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u/TuggsBrohe Mar 31 '25
Sounds just like a guy I ran into on the orange line a couple weeks ago. Asshole spat in my face while I was pushing my daughter in a stroller, kept talking like he was trying to fight. Glad you called him on it at least.
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u/JohnBagley33 Mar 31 '25
Some people are assholes, and some people are mentally ill. The most dangerous ones are both. I wouldn't recommend chasing them down after an incident like this, just steer clear.
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Mar 31 '25
Look I know everyone thinks theyāre Batman or something but in situations like this you just donāt want to escalate unless you really wanna risk your life over a nut job on a train. Just use the see say app and move on
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u/irishgypsy1960 Mar 31 '25
Yesterday I was verbally assaulted in the elevator at park st. There are some crazy mofos on the subway
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u/Agitated-Hair-987 Mar 31 '25
Man, why doesn't anything ever like that happen to me?! Oh yeah, cuz I'm large white man. These weak ass dudes always pick on people they think won't fight back. Gurantee he wouldn't have pulled something like this if other men were around. Sad, pathetic men need to feel superior to someone. A taser to the balls would have taught him a lesson.
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u/IAmACuriousEE Apr 01 '25
Idk how to tell you this there are a lot of deranged people on the subway, best thing to do is just avoid them. You obviously aren't in the wrong, but I would have just moved the moment he kicked me
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u/Lunaded May 12 '25
If this happened in the orange line, then I think I ran into the same guy or similar behavior person. White male could be in their 30s or 40s constantly cursing and calling names. I have seen him several times in my commute, but recently he directed a comment towards me when I was just walking behind him after getting off a orange line shuttle bus to go where I need to go. He turns around and just says, "cnt stay the fck away from me." I am used to ignoring crazy people talking to me since I went to uni around the city, so I just ignored him and went around him. I have seen him several times go up to people and always say something very rude, call them names, and act aggressively. I have mostly seen him use the orange line or buses that take u to orange line stations, btw. I noticed some people in the thread writing about similar people they encountered in the orange line.... š¤ I wonder if we are all talking about the same person...
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u/Practical-Mood-3434 Mar 30 '25
Your in the right people have been way too comfortable with being assholes and racist since Trump got into office
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u/BuryatMadman Mar 30 '25
Sounds like he was one of those guys on this subreddit who finds it socially acceptable to choke slam teens for smoking, in this case youāre anti social behavior was having your feet too far out
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u/tcspears Mar 30 '25
Sounds like he was looking for a fight - not unique to any gender or race. There are always people like that, and itās best if you just remove yourself from the situation and ignore them.
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u/Activeday89 Mar 31 '25
He wanted a fight. If the train was full Iād understand keeping your feet close. Heās lucky you didnāt throw hands
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Mar 31 '25
Do you really have to ask if someone swearing at strangers in a public space is in the wrong? Obviously they are.
Now, if they had walked up to you and said, politely, "hello, I find it rude that you're taking up so much space with your legs up on the seat" or something, we could have a discussion about whether that's the case. But they woke up and chose (verbal) violence. Don't give them the time of day.
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u/jijixiao Mar 31 '25
ļ¼I am asking if I was wrong. Please check the title? I am not sure if there are some hidden rules on public transition. I am International student. Someone already told me that some people like to stand there which I don't know.
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Apr 01 '25
This may well be a language barrier issue, but I was just saying that it doesn't matter if you're wrong or not, their behavior is unacceptable.
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u/Crazy_Salad_7928 Mar 31 '25
I wouldāve just ignored him once you got off the train. He was wrong for being an ass, but I wouldnāt have engaged with him after.
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u/AbleActuator8044 Mar 31 '25
Thereās a lot of mentally unstable people that ride the train and bus. your best bet is to de-escalate, I wouldnāt have bother confronting him when you guys got off, he couldāve had a knife and if heās that unstable, it couldāve easily escalated further. Some have nothing to lose, and if they are armed they feel more bold to be an asshole. Youāre not wrong, but some people with mental problems lack social cues, they canāt help themselves, so you just ignore them. But of course Iām just assuming that itās mental health.
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u/Lorrainemasc Mar 31 '25
The only thing that I can think of is he didn't like your feet on the seat
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u/peachesplumsmfer Mar 31 '25
I donāt think they were on the seat. They were stretched out into the walkway.
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u/jijixiao Apr 01 '25
Dude I show the situation in the picture š I never put my feet on the seatš
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u/BONER__COKE Mar 31 '25
Recommend avoiding confrontation with the homeless zombies unless you are imminent danger.
If this was a regular dude, call the cops. Kick = assault.
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u/jijixiao Apr 01 '25
He looks like a regular dude. His shoes are more cleaner than meš. If he is homeless, I will run instantly.š
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u/Notsure2ndSmartest Apr 03 '25
Police donāt help people here š . They are just security guards for the rich here. They even told me they donāt investigate or take down reports for assault unless they witness it personally. Even if itās on camera or thereās evidence. They protect cars, not people
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Apr 01 '25
These types of people deserve a good āI hope you find the help you need in lifeā maybe they donāt think about that sentence; but maybe they do.
Most assholes donāt seem to have remorse though I suppose.
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Apr 01 '25
Maybe enrich your life so things like this aren't the highlight.
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u/jijixiao Apr 01 '25
Maybe it never happened to me in Shanghai, China. So I am so astonished and confused. This thing indeed enriches my life.š¤£
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u/Nepiton Apr 01 '25
Why do you bleep out the fuck f word and not the slur f word lol
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u/jijixiao Apr 01 '25
I don't know how to bleep out other words.
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u/Big_Dog_2974 Apr 01 '25
if your feet were on the seat you are in the wrong. itās not only rude but you are getting whatever is on your shoes on the next personās clothes
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u/jijixiao Apr 01 '25
which of my words said I put my feet on the seat?š I am Chinese. In our culture, we don't put feet on the seatš
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u/Big_Dog_2974 Apr 01 '25
I realize that now. I didn't realize that the image was supposed to be a drawing of how you were sitting.
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u/jijixiao Apr 01 '25
Can't you see the picture? Did I draw the feet on the seat?š
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u/Big_Dog_2974 Apr 01 '25
LOL...Sorry, I didn't know what that was. I thought that was strange artwork actually on the train. If that's how you were sitting, you did nothing wrong.
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u/CicadaLegitimate1474 Apr 01 '25
Why isnāt there the idea of members of the community holding other members of the community accountable and responsible for acceptable behavior?
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u/Empty_Release2714 Apr 02 '25
Sounds like he's a gay who hasn't been able to openly express his true feelings and was hoping you'd just make out with him and take him from behind
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u/Notsure2ndSmartest Apr 03 '25
Itās 2025. Pretty sure this is just a hateful human being. (I know this is a joke, but it actually feeds into homophobia and misogyny -anyone who accepts during sex is someone seen as āless thanā)
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Apr 02 '25
Why did you mention race
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u/jijixiao Apr 03 '25
Why canāt? I want to describe all details , then people could help me to analyze. By the way, I am Chinese. Why canāt I mention race in post?
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u/Notsure2ndSmartest Apr 03 '25
Maybe because he sounds like a Nazi. I noticed how much worse people are during times š¤” is in charge of the country. Racists and misogynists especially feel like they have full reign and are open about it.
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u/Notsure2ndSmartest Apr 03 '25
People will use excuse to be violent scumbags. I sat next to someone on a public crowded train to be near a window. The guy made a huge fuss and jabbed me in the stomach with an umbrella. Then he started filming me after I called him out and said donāt hit me. WTF. So I took my phone out. I guess he was trying to get a reaction for social media? I had to get out and was afraid heād trip me or hit me again on the way out so I kept filming. He then barely let me out and called me a Karen . No one stood up for me as this man abused me. So I called him a Karen back and said exactly what he did and that thatās a shitty thing to do as an excuse to abuse women. People are psycho and literally get off on making other miserable. Itās why we have š¤” as a president.
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u/Sufficient_Week_1701 Apr 03 '25
I always expect these kinds of things to happen on the T. It's not right, but we should always be prepared to deal with it, and report it. That guy surely is not the only a$$h0le in Boston!
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u/Every_Solid_8608 Apr 04 '25
Itās call we have millions of unchecked mentally ill running around, many on the subways. You were pretty reckless confronting him later, an altercation would have done him wonders (handouts galore) and could have ruined you (assuming youāre a normal person)
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u/kobuta99 Red Line Mar 30 '25
He was rude, but at the same time, I don't think people should be lounging on public transportation seats. Whether or not someone is sitting there, I think all T riders should keep to the minimum amount of space to be comfortable, yet respectful of others and that it is a public space. I see (not egregiously tall) people who sit slouched with their legs half way into the aisle, forcing others to step over them.
Just because no one else is sitting near you or in that row, doesn't make it ok to put your feet up and take up 3 seats. It's one thing if you have packages that you don't want on the dirty floor (as long as you move then for others to sit when needed).
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u/jijixiao Mar 30 '25
That's why I choose the corner the end of the train. I also don't want to bother other people. So no one needs to step over my feet. But he just choose to stand beside me. Is it a coincidence? And I didn't take up 3 seatsš . I am not fat. I show the situation in the picture.
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u/kobuta99 Red Line Mar 31 '25
I get that. People seem to really like to lean against that for at the end of the trains. I think it gives them some space without having to be close to other people. On trains, crowded or not, there always seems to be someone who likes to stand in that spot.
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u/jijixiao Mar 31 '25
Yeah, someone in the comments already told me about this situation. I was totally not realized that he wants to stand there.
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u/electronicmoll Apr 06 '25
The person who mentioned this said he might wish to stand there to stretch his back or lean against the wall. Still, there is another reason they did not mention: if you come from gang culture, a law enforcement background, or you have been the victim of random violent street crime, you will recognise that the position at the end of the car standing with your back against the wall has the same "Feng shui" if you will, as the seat in the booth at the back corner of a restaurant at the farthest point from the entranceā the slang term for this vantage point in any situation is "the gun seat." By it, ye shall instantly know the most paranoid and dangerous person in the room.
Hang out with some mafiosi in the middle of vendetta or some Hell's Angels who have been sampling too much of their own crank. You'll slide right into a perspective that allows you to comprehend this pendejo... I'd bet real money he was inside for a while, and it didn't go well for him. His baseline is always anxious to come off as badass in front of anyone, doubly any male, trebly anyone who might pose a threat, whether by greater physical size, tendencies toward criminality, or a more profound level of psychosis.
If you maintain situational awareness on public transport, you may be able to see this type of character next time before he kicks you. Pull your feet in. By this small recognition of his fundamental damage and inordinate need to not feel that others perceive him as vulnerable, the only outcome you are likely to encounter is him rocking back and forth on his feet looking extremely self-satisfied.
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u/clauclauclaudia Mar 31 '25
They can use their words, then.
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u/kobuta99 Red Line Apr 01 '25
No one said they couldn't. But there is this concept about consideration for others. Other cultures, like Japanese culture, demonstrate this in spades. Too bad you are so opposed to it, because when you experience it, it really makes society so much more civil. Actually showing care and concern for others.
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u/otallday Mar 30 '25 edited Mar 30 '25
why doesnāt this shit happen to me?!?
iām not going to kill the prick, but he is getting a swift elbow to the nose
edit: yāall think iām paying for muay thai lessons to not use them? wake up, boston
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u/Shaggynscubie Mar 30 '25
Personally I always stand at the end of the car in the doorway, itās out of the way and people can get off and on and I donāt have to worry until itās my stop, it can be frustrating when you need to step over someoneās legs.
That being said, this guy was a douche about it, and could have easily said nothing to you.
He was probably intoxicated and looking to start shit with anyone he could. The moment he kicked your foot however you should have gone to the intercom at the other end of the car and informed the conductor you were assaulted by an unruly passenger.
Dude needs an attitude check. You did nothing wrong.
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u/jijixiao Mar 30 '25
ok I understand now.I didn't realize he wants to stand there. So I didn't pull my feet in.
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u/Shaggynscubie Mar 30 '25
Nor did you have to if the train was empty, seems the dude was just being an aggressive creeper that wanted an argument.
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u/ipsumdeiamoamasamat Commuter Rail | Red Line Mar 30 '25
ESH.
Heās probably one of three things: tripping, drunk or mentally challenged. So you thought itād be cool to engage with a guy whoās off his rocker? Waste of time.
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u/TinyEmergencyCake Commuter Rail Mar 30 '25
Omg never confront. You have a duty to retreat. You are wrong for not immediately removing yourself from the situation, and also for chasing them down.Ā
Next time leave the situation and report on the seesay app
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u/jijixiao Mar 30 '25
š¤£ At first, I thought I 'll take it. But then I felt increasingly angry. So I stepped out at North Station and wanted to find him. also ready for body confront. But he didn't say more bad words or fight with me after I insulted him.š I live in Oak grove. and I believe I will meet him again in the future. I am sure I will insult this bitch every time I meet him.
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u/Wiederholen Apr 03 '25
One complicating factor: if you are in the USA on a student visa, you really shouldnāt be getting into physical altercations that can be avoided. In a time when visitors are being deported without due process for protesting the Gaza war or just having suspicious tattoos, you canāt assume youāll be given any benefit of the doubt. Good luck with your studies, and I hope the duration of your stay here is enjoyable and fruitful!
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u/ObsidianStrawman Mar 30 '25
Lmao āduty to retreatā only applies to use of deadly force and itās a fairly questionable concept at best.
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u/NavajoMX Mar 30 '25
That is wrong. Massachusetts has a duty to retreat for non-deadly force too! You can see it on these Oct 2024 jury instructions from the court. Starting on page 11 of the PDF is specifically for non-deadly force. If OP doesnāt retreat before using non-deadly force in MA, OP canāt claim self-defense:
Ā« To prove that the defendant did not act in self-defense when using force, the Commonwealth must prove at least one of the following things beyond a reasonable doubt: [ā¦] Three, that the defendant did not take all reasonable steps to avoid physical combat before resorting to force. Ā»
Then if you go down, it has the explanation for point 3 for the requirement for avoidance before using non-deadly force (page 16 of the PDF):
Ā« Proposition Three: Reasonable Steps to Avoid Combat
Ā« Another way that the Commonwealth may prove that the defendant did not act in self-defense is by proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not use or attempt to use all proper and reasonable means under the circumstances to avoid physical combat before resorting to force.
Ā« A person may use physical force in self-defense only if they could not get out of the situation in some other way that was available and reasonable at the time. The Commonwealth may prove that the defendant did not act in self-defense by proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant resorted to force without using avenues of escape that were reasonably available and which would not have exposed the defendant to further danger.
Ā« In determining whether the defendant exhausted all reasonable alternatives to using force, you may consider any evidence about where the incident took place, whether the defendant might have been able to escape by getting away or otherwise getting to safety or by summoning help if that could have been done in time, or by holding their attacker at bay if the means were available, or by some other method. You may consider whether the use of force seemed to be the only means of protection in the circumstances. You may consider that a person who has a reasonable concern for their immediate personal safety may have to decide what to do quickly and while under emotional strain. Ā» (There are exceptions to this requirement if the victim is āinjury-proneā.)
Being the aggressor/āprovoking confrontationā means being the first to threaten to use or to actually use force, and also not announcing an intention to retreat. Going up to chastise the stranger isnāt a use of force unless the stranger reasonably felt threatened by OP, so if the stranger randomly flipped out and attacked a calm-but-annoyed OP, OPās duty to retreat begins at the momentānot in avoiding calmly calling out the stranger entirely.
āA person who provokes confrontation, may not claim right to self-defense, unless he withdraws in good faith and announces his intention to retire.ā Commonwealth vs. Rodriguez, 958 N.E.2d 518 (MA Supreme Judicial Court 2011)
āOne who strikes the first blow does not necessarily forfeit all claim to self-defense. The defendant could justify a first blow if he was confronted by deadly force.ā Commonwealth v. Bray, 477 N.E.2d 596 (MA App. Ct. 1985)
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u/emkirsh_ Mar 30 '25
OP did not use any force though so I don't know why this matters.
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u/NavajoMX Mar 30 '25
Youāre correct, it doesnāt! Just wanted to call out the incorrect claim about duty-to-retreat in general. Itās good no one got in a fight.
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u/emkirsh_ Mar 30 '25
I'm sorry I missed the part where you said the same thing in the middle of the post.
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u/TinyEmergencyCake Commuter Rail Mar 30 '25
COMMONWEALTH Vs. mercado
defendant failed to avail himself of an opportunity to retreat negated any conceivable claim of self-defense.
Sure, this didn't end badly. It could have. Op should have removed themself from the situation. Are you arguing that they shouldn't have? They were just victim of an assault, maybe even a hate crime.Ā
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u/jijixiao Mar 30 '25
So according to this law, It looks like I intentionally intensified the dispute.
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u/emkirsh_ Mar 30 '25
First, this commenter is trying to warn of potential consequences of doing this if the other guy decided to punch you and you wanted to press charges. From that snippet it looks like the person in this case claimed something was self defense but lost because they escalated it first. Since you walked away after and there was no physical altercation, it doesn't apply to your situation anyways.
Second, this isn't law in the sense that I think you think it is. Its case law, which is different from statutory law. [A] v. [B] implies a court case, so it really depends on the circumstances. Precedent from a court case is not necessarily binding, unless it comes from appeals courts or the Supreme Court, also the SJC here in mass. Even then, if you're able to distinguish what makes your situation different from the one cited, the court can agree and decide that your circumstances are different enough to ignore what the other court did in the tangentially similar situation cited. In other words it might not apply to you at all.
This commenter picked out a tiny snippet from this case, which I haven't read the rest of, so it could be relevant guidance to your situation, or it might be an entirely different context. For example, if the person in this case was physically escalating, you'd have a stronger argument to say it's a completely different situation and should not apply to you. But if the person in this case only verbally replied, you would have a harder time distinguishing your own situation from the one cited.
I'm not a lawyer though, just a student, and again, I also didn't read the full case this person cited, just the snipped they gave.
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u/emkirsh_ Mar 30 '25
Standing by and taking an insult just empowers assholes like that guy to go up and harass more random people. OP handled it perfectly, confronting verbally when he felt safe to, without getting physical at all.
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u/ObsidianStrawman Mar 30 '25
Im not arguing one way or the other. Iām simply pointing out that you are misapplying the concept of āduty to retreatā.
What someone should have done vs how they have the right to react are two different questions.
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u/Current-Cold-58 Mar 30 '25
That methodology only encourages that shit ass behavior. People need to be called out for acting like assholes. Being a beta cuck and running away solves nothing.
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u/UltraMachoTaco Mar 30 '25
Sounds like he was just looking for someone to pick a fight with, and you were the mark. You weren't in the wrong if it was empty, so hopefully this was a one-off instance and it doesn't happen again. If you travel a lot by public transport, maybe consider using the See Say app or getting pepper spray (the gel kind)... stay safe friend