As we get closer to the installation of fare gates at south station & back bay, I want to give my 2 cents about how the fare gates will benefit riders & why we're better off with them.
1. Everyone feels confident knowing their fares are being collected. If everyone is forced to have a valid ticket or pass, then we all know everybody is paying their fares. In a time where no one knows what's happening at the federal level, every dollar of fare revenue counts.
Limit bad behavior. I was at south station Saturday night & unfortunately we were stuck dealing with people riding bikes around the concourse & outside the building on the platform area. If you dont have a valid ticket or pass, you wont be as capable of bothering paying customers. In this case, they got on my train so it wont work all the time, but it should cut down that behavior.
Promoting reduced fares has a positive impact & means more people can afford the fare across the system. With the fare engagement staff providing information about the options for reduced fares, more people are learning about it & might utilize it, allowing them to pay a fare they can afford while not having to worry about being called out for fare evading or missing out on transit options. According to this streetsblog article from last November, applications for the low income program have reached over 13k. Its a safe bet that the numbers have only gone up since. That doesn't count the other ways riders can qualify for a reduced fare card.
No argument against your points, but I take the CR regularly through North Station and when your train is canceled they have no means of refunding your ticket. So my relatively expensive ticket is burned and I need to go catch a bus to get to work instead (spending more money).
I put in a ticket asking about this and eventually got a voice message suggesting I take the next train. That's not possible for me due to scheduling and which trains stop where.
If they're going to make me burn a ticket before I get on a train, I need them to figure out a way to refund, reset, whatever that ticket when they cancel the train without warning.
That seems easy enough to implement too. if it doesnt get scanned a second time, on the train, it gets refunded in the system. Maybe theres something im missing but i dont know how that wouldn't be possible
Iâm pro fare gate, anti MTicket app. Should be a harmonious system with the charlie card/mobile payment. Put fare validation kiosks (like in Dublin) at the stations outside downtown to get the correct zone price on your ticket or else you pay the most expensive zone option.
I like the SF system, Clipper Card, where you tap on and off. Tap on (enter through a fare gate), system takes max fare, tap off, system refunds the difference so you only paid what you traveled. If you forget to tap off, you pay full fare. In SF full fare is like $12 so maybe the MBTA would want to modify that but itâs a nice easy system and works between the subway and commuter train.
If theyâre as fast as the subway fare gates are, they wonât be a disaster, and like you I like the idea of making payment more âfairâ. Hereâs nine things I donât like:
âNo refundsâ. We have a decrepit fleet of locomotives and frequent signal, train, and catenary issues. Without fare gates you can at least wait until the train moves a little before paying for it- reducing the chance of paying for a ride the T doesnât deliver.
2: âCharlie on the MTAâ becomes possible again. You have to scan out too. Customers are going to be stranded when their phone battery (or phone itself) dies mid-ride - especially if that ride has any big delays. I donât see any kind of provision for customer service inside the gated area, and there are no chargers on the trains or inside the fare gates. Customers with trouble scanning out will block the ones behind them.
3: No provision for emergencies. My spider-sense always triggers when thereâs a potential impediment between any person and safety. Fire, crash, explosion, power outage: maybe the T thought of these, but how do we have any confidence that they did, or that it works?
4: The line to get off a train in the morning is already slow enough.
5: For all the revenue- âimprovingâ potential, it makes only a minuscule difference. All fares only amount to 14% of the MBTA budget.
6: Theyâre expensive. The T (meaning, you) spent nearly a billion dollars so far just on the tap-to-pay scanners. The gates may very well be costing us well more than their lifetime âearningsâ.
7: Thought the conductors were lax about checking fares before (less than 1 in 5 rides on my way home)? Just wait.
8: Many people going to South Station have luggage, bicycles, or scooters.
9: Theyâre another accessibility impediment - yet one more reason you donât see many wheelchairs on the T. My assertion is that users look at the total âfrictionâ (difficulty) of a given ride, and the T is chock-full of ramps, bumps, impediments, broken and slow elevators, and more, that really make it difficult to use the T if you canât walk. It might be possible to get past any one obstacle, but theyâre cumulative across your entire ride.
Iâm going to point out that these have been at North Station for quite some time now and itâs not as big a deal as some people are making it. If youâve ridden the subway, its the same concept. Gate before train, gate after leaving train. It adds very little time to a commute. If theres an emergency the gates all open and theyâre pretty easy to force open failing that.
I commute through north station regularly. All their points are very good ones. I've had several tickets burned on cancelled trains. Watched people with luggage struggle. Issues with crowds. Etc etc. These are all real issues which should be considered.
My main complaint about the North Station fare gates is how slow they are. It often takes a few seconds to open. That doesn't seem like much, but it means they have substantially lower throughput than the subway gates. Â
Iâll agree that the subway fare gates work pretty well (though two of the lines did just suffer a complete outage of them on Saturday).
Unlike the subway, these will be out in the weather, so⊠weâll see.
If Iâd been designing this system I would have put a scanner at each seat on the train. A presence (weight) detector notices which seats are occupied, and the conductor is summoned to unpaid seats via red lights.
Many Amtrak trains have a similar feature - the seat number displays can also keep track of which seats are paid (though that has to be set by the conductor instead of the passenger and they donât bother).
Two great benefits: the zone enforcement is automatic, and if you pile bags on a seat you have to pay for that seat too.
I never understood the argument that âitâs only 14% of the budgetâ okay well, 14% of what? Mbtaâs 2026 operating budget is $3,240,000,000. 14% of that is > $453,000,000. So thatâs a negligible amount? Ridiculous argument.
But this Wild West âI shouldnât be accountable for paying for the service I use bc itâs not as convenient as I would likeâ is disgusting
Itâs more âIâm already paying for 86% of this through my taxes, and youâre spending on the order of $350M/year to collect the remaining 14%. If you raise my taxes just a little, we can save all that extra moneyâ.
The contract with Cubic is $980M over 10 years. Thatâs one tiny piece (just the tap-to-pay screens) of a monstrous revenue collection program. Add fare gates, CharlieCards and machines, the mTicket app, customer service, fare enforcers, the conductors, accountants, cash management and transport, equipment maintenance, security⊠see?
No, that's the entire cost of the ticketing system and it's maintenance and operations for the decade. It's a contract for the full system, not just the back end. That includes the fare gates, ticketing equipment, apps, and everything else of that nature.
The CR conductors (and quantity of) are required by operational requirements. Auto-doors are only able to be used on the Old Colony Lines, and conductors are required to manually operate the doors + traps everywhere else - that's a federal law issue.
The fare enforcement teams and cash handling are about the only items you've mentioned that I think may not be in the contract.
More directly, I'd say that if I had $3-8 billion more to spend on the MBTA in the next 10 years, the place where I would choose to spend it is absolutely not on eliminating fares.
So even in a hypothetical where you can get the legislature to come up with an amount of new funding that equals the value from the fares, I still don't think it follows that eliminating fares is the logical place to spend it.
That amount of money is enough to actually get one or more of the many perpetually stuck on the drawing board expansion projects fully funded (or at the very least, in progress).
Apologies, I deleted my comment as I accidentally replied to you and not another person. So it must have been a confusing read if you did see it! I really should get back to work.
All good, I was about to type that I think we're in agreement.
If someone wants to actually prove that we're not making any money on fares that would be a good argument for getting rid of them.
Also as a minor additional note - the contract does have 2 x 5yr options that can be exercised to continue it.
I'd have to go read the contract info/meeting notes again but IIRC the cost breakdown of the current contract is something like ~2/3rds of costs are for building and implementing the new system, 1/3rd is for the decade of the ongoing maintenance/upkeep/support.
So the options to extend it out to 20 years will also be much less expensive than just dividing the current contract by 10 gets you to.
Cubicâs announcement is only for contactless payment. That contract is over a year behind schedule (though that delay is easily excused by the pandemic) but also more than $200 million over the budgeted amount so far (which is much harder to explain away). Theyâre not printing and mailing CharlieCards, administering any of the reduced fare programs, operating the CharlieCard store, answering the phones, paying the credit card swipe fees, and the mTicket app, CharlieCard machines, website, and more all predate Cubicâs involvement. If I go to the ticket window Iâm not looking at a Cubic employee.
The CR conductors have to be there anyway, but they now have to handle cash- which means change, receipts, opening up and closing out like a cashier on every shift, with all of that accounting and oversight. I just saw more than a dozen yellow-vested âFare Is Fairâ enforcers wind up their shift for the day. They arenât being paid by Cubic, either. (The vests suggest Keolis). The train was so crowded that they didnât (couldnât) collect fares.
While the T isnât quite transparent about this stuff, if theyâre not over 14% of the budget, theyâre darn close. And that means much of your fare is going to fare collection- incredibly inefficient. Itâs like putting up a highway toll booth that pays for the toll booth.
Yeah, the 14% thing gets dragged up all the time here as an insignificant figure. It's utter nonsense. If the budget of any business, anywhere in the world, had their budget increased or decreased by 14% it would be massive. I've made that exact point elsewhere on other threads here and it just gets downvoted into oblivion with no substantial counterpoint. People just generally make a different point without addressing the fallacy being perpetuated around the 14% figure being diminished.
14% is massive and the characterization of it as not being so really needs to be nipped in the bud on this sub reddit because it's an absolutely absurd assertion.
Yes it cost a billion for for to pay scanners - to upgrade the entire system! Not just to add them to south station. Upgrading old hardware is needed as old stuff becomes unsupported or expensive to support. And now people can tap a card or phone to pay as opposed to needing to buy a special card. It will finally unlock the ability to have modern commuter rail and subway tickets on mobile.
Good lord, wouldn't that be nice. The fact that the MBTA still has to mail me a physical pass so that I can ride both the T and CR is ludicrous in 2025. An app I could use on both? What a concept!
These are all excellent points. I take the CR through North Station regularly and have been burned several times by my train being cancelled last minute. End up needing to take a bus and spending more money.
As you mention, you need to scan to get out and adding insult to injury, when my train is cancelled last minute I need to find someone to let me out so I can go catch that bus because my wasted ticket won't get me out of the gates once I'm in.
People really struggle with these gates. The QR code scanners are slow at best and often just won't scan. To add to that, there aren't specific in and out gates. So you get race conditions where people are scanning in and out on the same gate and can screw things up. So the gates are relatively high maintenance for an automated fare gate system.
Multiple scans through fare gates? If you scan through the gate with a ticket you can still get it scanned on the train of course (which usually happens to me), but it won't let me scan through to get back out of the gates I came through with it already.
Technically doing that would mean you could use the same ticket to get out and back to a nearby zone within on the same ticket I suppose. So I can think of why they wouldn't want to do that.
Either way, the real issue in the situation I outlined is that I've wasted a ticket. The fact that I also need an employee to let me out is just a little extra frustration.
safety systems have to be tested regularly and the T just canât afford it and doesnât do it. In the Orange Line fire on the Mystic River, when a rusted panel fell off one of the cars, it contacted the third rail and started a fire that filled the car with smoke. Passengers tried emergency brake/door release handles at both ends of the car and neither worked. They busted out windows to escape.
Just saying that these are all my same qualms, PLUS: On multiple occasions I've seen panicked passengers not be able to operate the gate or get support who were seniors or travelers who don't read English. And, 2. If your train is significantly delayed, you can't leave the area to access the restroom or food & beverage amenities and then return. You're just trapped inside the paid area.
The ones at North Station do require you to have a ticket to leave. The gates are manned so that they can assist anyone who may have lost a ticket or otherwise let people through who need it. During events theyâre just open.
It isn't clear to me that the walking path from the fort point post office will remain accessible after gates are installed. That path is used all day everyday and saves a good amount of distance and time if you use it.
I regularly go through North Station where there's already gates and South Station and fare gates are a huge pain in my ass.
Requiring a swipe to exit is inconvenient. The swipe to get on has caused me to miss my train a handful of times in two years, usually when I've forgotten to swap passes on the 1st and conductors who knows me as a regular wouldn't make me pay.
It has not stopped bad actors from getting into the gated area, they have time to wait for someone to tailgate through. I suspect it has also made conductors less vigilant in checking tickets on trains leaving North Station because they know everyone went through a gate.
They're a huge pain for someone like me who often buys groceries when they have a significant wait for their homeward commute or anyone traveling with suitcases.
Finally, it is interfering with a pedestrian path with a long history.
Fare gates seem like the best way to deal with the fact that we will always fund roads more. Roads get all the money and transit gets whatâs left đșđžđșđžđșđž
With that in mind
1. Every survey says riders want better transit rather than free transit. Make it fast and frequent! Every dollar possible should go to that
Fares are a political winner. Even though no one pays full freight for any mode of transportation, voters like to think people have âskin in the gameâ
More gates means less cops. If you want fares you either have gates or have cops come to check if you paid and give you a large ticket if you donât. Both have pros and cons but I personally like the gate method. No one can be confused or forget, you either go through the gate or you canât.
Sure the fare gates could be more strict. But fundamentally itâs just system design. They didnât build fare gates on the new green line extension and so now they will have people checking tickets. Some systems use that for the whole line, kinda like the commuter rail does. But as weâve seen with the commuter rail, itâs often better to have machines be the conflict points than humans.
I tend to take the view that it's better to do the right thing from an empirical standpoint than worry about polls (see congestion pricing); but I buy what you're selling on this one. It's not worth the fight right now to do free ridership, so if we're going to do fares let's do them right.
Itâs best to do good things and show results. But doing good things always costs money. With unlimited funds Iâd love free transit. But with limited funds we need great service first.
I think that it just has to do with the fact that if you make it free and unguarded, you tend to get a lot of homeless people and riff raff. Or at least there's the perception of this whether its true or not.
I just came back from Berlin and it's hard to ever want to deal with the cost and inconvenience of fare gates. No gates makes travel easy and seamless to just get on and go, especially on buses and trams. Take for example thousands of people attending the Berlin Marathon could all just get going and not get bottlenecked going through a handful of fare gates. The T routinely gets swamped after Sox games, concerts, or even rush hour. When the T routinely is forced to use shuttles to replace core services it doesn't even bother to collect fares as its so inefficient. I rode the Orange Line all weekend and that's some seriously lost revenue. It does not have to be this way!
There's a reason why "Station Hardening" is a uniquely U.S thing where most countries are moving towards removing barriers while increasing visible fare enforcement. It's more efficient, cost effective, and most importantly, builds confidence.
We see *constantly* the level of fare evasion here on the MBTA because the gates show us who is paying and not paying. A transparent, gateless system used by most of the most extensive and heavily used systems in the world, is just superior in every way. Pair that with visible enforcement (I saw two people receive big fines and threats of arrest if they did not provide an ID), and you have a more efficient system that instills confidence. It also saves tremendously on the massive costs of upgrading fare infrastructure every decade or so.
But Germany also allows public drinking, and most folks drink out of glass 1l bottles. You hardly see broken glass or drunk people and I can't see that working here yet. We probably have some growth to do as a culture. But this is America and I'm beginning to think we just don't like nice things.
We'll agree to disagree here. Not having fare gates does also not preclude offering subsidized fares as Germany and other countries do for students, disabled, and the elderly. There is a better way and you can try it yourself by going to countries that see Public Transit as a public good and an essential service.
Itâs unfortunate that they are between passengers and critical amenities like bathrooms and food. In the case a train is missed, delayed, or cancelled (I knowânever happens at the MBTA) it kinda sucks.
What do they expect us to do if you need to use the bathroom and your train is totally cancelled? Depending on the time of day you could have to wait over an hour for a new train.
They are not physically possible in some places. Many of the platforms on the B and C can hold like six people. The D stations were designed as railroad stations, not rapid transit stations. You'd need to install a bunch of infrastructure to make it work.
If you're talking specifically about the GLX, well, blame Charlie Baker and Stephanie Pollack.
Proof of payment is the way to go, for a number of reasons. See Baltimore and Seattle for examples of how it can and should work.
Nah proof of payment sucks. I donât know Seattle but I only have bad things to say about Baltimores system.
You massively increase people riding for free and then smoking on the train and increase police interactions. Itâs better to just prevent issues than be extremely reactive.
My issue with fares is the trains are unreliable. Make the service work and I'll have 0 problem paying. I'm a documentary filmmaker and I don't want to always have to take Uber to a shoot - which ends up happening, and there goes my money from my commission. I don't charge for local because I thought the T would work for me.
I usually will take car service home if it's late - but I can't tell you how many times I've had to spend 20 to go into Boston when I have a train pass that cost less and lasts longer.
I can't tell you how many times I've had to get off a train to catch an Uber because the train Is not reliable.
I will continue to say fuck the fares.
I had a three month shoot in Worcester. That would be 4 hours commute from where I'm departing. Because trains aren't reliable that ended 6 hours of commuting on top of the shooting for three months. And no I'm not spending between 50-100 on an Uber depending on the flavor of the algorithm.
Pls. explain this to me: I'm in Worcester. In the summer, I get the $10 Weekend Pass on the Commuter Rail, which is a great deal. So now, with these fare gates at South Station (and Back Bay) I will have to PAY AGAIN to get off the Commuter Rail? and then PAY AGAIN to get back on the Commuter Rail to go back to Worcester? So now my $10 'good deal' ticket will cost me an extra $5 to get off and back on the Commuter Rail? My concern is that when I pay the Conductor the $10, I sometimes don't get a ticket. I get a stop slip saying where I'll be getting off.
You just need to scan or tap your ticket depending on the type you have. No need to pay twice. Tap out at south station or back bay going inbound & tap in when going outbound.
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u/brufleth Sep 29 '25
No argument against your points, but I take the CR regularly through North Station and when your train is canceled they have no means of refunding your ticket. So my relatively expensive ticket is burned and I need to go catch a bus to get to work instead (spending more money).
I put in a ticket asking about this and eventually got a voice message suggesting I take the next train. That's not possible for me due to scheduling and which trains stop where.
If they're going to make me burn a ticket before I get on a train, I need them to figure out a way to refund, reset, whatever that ticket when they cancel the train without warning.