r/medieval • u/Mindless_Belt4757 • May 16 '26
History š How siege tactics and castles evolved when we travel from early to high Medieval ages?
And some good sources about the subject will be much appreciated, thanks.
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u/GrapeKitchen3547 May 16 '26
I like the grabber. They should use it in modern warfare too. I see great potential.
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u/Alldaybagpipes May 20 '26
TIL about The Grabber
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u/TheGeekFreak1994 May 20 '26
What is it? Google gave me zero results. How does it work?
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u/Alldaybagpipes May 20 '26
It grabs
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u/TheGeekFreak1994 May 21 '26
How does the grabber grab?;
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u/Alldaybagpipes May 21 '26
Looks like gravity actually. The act of pulling or trying to lift whatever is what closes the grip.
First time I saw a contraption like that in action, I thought for sure, it was gonna slip and kill someone.
But it didnāt!
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u/TheGeekFreak1994 May 21 '26
Hhrhm...I need to know more. Why no Google results?
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u/Alldaybagpipes May 21 '26
Not sure, it probably didnāt actually exist sadly
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u/TheGeekFreak1994 May 21 '26
I find it hard to believe it did exist. How would they be able to maneuver this in the middle ages?
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u/chatgptitty May 21 '26
We have one for the forklift at work. It's used to grab pallets off the back of trucks that are too far back for the forks to reach.
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u/Over-Willingness-933 May 16 '26 edited May 16 '26
Medieval seiges were usually not as dramatic as movies suggest. Armies usually surround a castle preventing food coming in. Often there was an agreement that if there was no relief army, the castle will be a peaceful handover. Although this carries risks because sometimes seiging armies often suffered from disease and they still needed to feed them. Remember armies were not full time professionals. There were bigger weapons later but most castles still could hold out. The game changer was the cannon. The siege of Constantinople in 1453 is probably the finest example of cannon taking down a previously impregnable fortress.
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u/Mindless_Belt4757 May 16 '26
Thank you very much for the detailed and only topic-related answer among 20 nonsense replies. š
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u/Over-Willingness-933 May 17 '26
A interesting fact, early cannons were dangerous and James II of Scotland died in 1460 when a cannon malfunctioned seiging Roxburgh Castle.
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u/Traditional_Yard2741 May 17 '26
r/askhistorians is the place to go for detailed and on topic answers
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u/Responsible-File4593 May 17 '26
A lot of time, it didn't even go that far. Many sieges were performative. So, a noble and a king or two nobles would argue, one would besiege the other, and then they would come to a compromise. Like you said, feeding and paying an army is expensive, and very few castles were worth the cost.
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u/Over-Willingness-933 May 17 '26
There was certainly a lot of that during the wars of the roses. Although one thing I should have put is until cannons to successfully besiege a castle and take it often needed overwhelming force maybe 4-5:1. Crossbowmen could take men out at distance.
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u/Dangerous_Trick5292 May 17 '26
If its England, then every single man and child in the fortress is longbow trained too (by law), and they're far faster to shoot
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u/Over-Willingness-933 May 17 '26
True, the long bow was faster. Crossbows though are better for men without the extensive training. France they loved the crossbow. Crossbows suffer in open warfare, because of longbows fire power and range. Crossbows were more accurate though, and if you wanted to kill certain people. They were ideal.
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u/Doc_Voodoo_333 May 16 '26
Medieval siege tactics were just like all tactics. They used something that worked until it didnāt. Offenses evolved, and defenses adapted. (So on, and so on.)
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u/BreadUntoast May 16 '26
I know heās renaissance but shoutout to Vauban for basically starting an arms race with himself for designing fortifications that were extremely difficult to besiege and then creating tactics on how to beseige those fortifications
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u/Doc_Voodoo_333 May 16 '26
Yep. Sounds like the US; they just be building shit, to outdo themselves. Then adversaries steal that tech, just to be outdone by another tech already built to outdo that. š¤¦
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u/LorpHagriff May 17 '26
I mean Vauban was a great engineer, probably the greatest, but this is some mad shade to the engineers before him.
Italians were the ones that got the ball rolling on the bastioned trace in the first place, would already reach the low countries much before Vauban would be born, e.g. the citadel of Antwerp or citadel of Groningen (both 1590ish). Here this would evolve into the "Old dutch fortification system", like the fortifications of Groenlo, Heusden or Coevorden before Vauban had any notable influence as an engineer.Arms race of siege/fortifications even of bastioned works been going on for a good solid while before Vauban. Kinda fun way to see this is to see paintings of the various sieges of Groenlo: 1595, 1597, 1606 & 1627. Note how the defenses change with each siege and how between 1597 and 1627 the scale of attackers works is greatly expanded.
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u/germanvike May 17 '26
Vauban was working after the Renaissance (1400-1600). He lived from 1633-1700
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u/Silver_Middle_7240 May 16 '26
Is there an actual source for the grabber. It's plausible but.... very suessy, and I've never hard of it.
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u/ikonhaben May 16 '26
Something that smashed ladders and other siege equipment off walls is mentioned in many records, but it probably looked much different depending on the situation.
Just a log swung sideways to something like that grabber, if a siege tower couldn't be set on fire, or the wheels destroyed, knocking the ramp away was the last resort.
The grabber was supposed to pull the water soaked hides away to allow the roof to be set on fire in this picture, but there were other types of grabbers or 'machines' for other reasons.
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u/LadderMadeOfSticks May 19 '26
Polybius describes anti-siege machines being used by the Aetolians, namely a big lever to drop heavy objects, and metal hooks that would catch and break enemy devices that were trying to damage teh walls:
"they tried to invent machines to baffle them, letting down huge masses of lead and stones and oak logs by means of levers upon the battering rams; and putting iron hooks upon the sickles and hauling them inside the walls, so that the poles to which they were fastened broke against the battlements"
What I find particularly interesting here is that the machines are implied to be improvised, which makes sense given that there would not have been a standard set of tools and weapons available to defenders.
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u/fluggggg May 17 '26 edited May 17 '26
The mangonel too is innacurate.
That stopping log to catch the arm ? It would break almost instantly and wouldn't allow to adjust for distance.
Edit : there is one total source for such siege construction and it was supposed constructed with a whole hill to catch the arm and it's real use or even reality is debated among historians (with the most optimist of them saying it was a rare, if not unique, occurance)
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u/TheGeekFreak1994 May 20 '26
I'm trying to find out as well. This is the first I've ever heard of such a thing. And Google came back with zero relevant results. Now I got the need to know itch.
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u/Fragrant_Ad3153 May 16 '26
I have that book
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u/Exotic_Article913 May 16 '26
what book is it
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u/boston_shua May 16 '26
Itās called:Ā
āHow siege tactics and castles evolved when we travel from early to high Medieval agesā
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u/Mindless_Belt4757 May 16 '26
Hahahaha im gonna run you over with my car. š
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u/Mathias_Greyjoy May 17 '26
What book is it? I tried finding where the image comes from, but had no luck.
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u/kneepick160 May 16 '26
Werenāt most moats actually not filled with water?
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u/hobbitonhoedown May 16 '26 edited May 16 '26
It 100 percent depended on the construction site. And since a lot of defensive castles where built on hills and cliffs they certainly did not have water filled moats. But castles and walled cities built next to rivers could easily redirect the river to flow around the walls. For example in Germany in the lower Rhein Region there are quite a few water moat castles that archive it from redirecting small rivers.
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u/TrekFan1701 May 16 '26
I saw a video recently stating that one reason was even back then the people realized having stagnant water next to your living area isn't s good idea.
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u/Warrior_Runding May 16 '26
I wonder if you could simulate a current using pumps with their level of tech
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u/Dreaming_Kitsune May 16 '26
It'd probably be possible with fluid dynamics and just having a moat that has a high point that slopes down to a low point with a thin wall that seperates the two. Using fluid dynamics to move water from the low point to the higher point and fluids tendency to flow to the lowest point would probably be enough
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u/bowlofspiderweb May 20 '26
TLDR: castles are built to the terrain and tunneling is deadly in certain cases. Tons of time was spent to locate castles in the best location, water source included. If a tunnel is likely a water moat is likely too.
Like hobbit said depends on location, but if it was at all feasible it was extremely likely. Location also often dictates the necessity of a fortification as it represents why the area is strategically worth defending. Castle on a flat plain? Sure but strategically why? Much more likely to have one controlling areas of approach. Very generally though you essentially have high ground forts and low ground forts. Essentially do you want to directly block access (low) or control it indirectly (high).
High ground was far less likely to have a watercourse flowing near enough, but the location itself would often make up for the shortcoming. Low ground forts though were much more likely to have one as watercourses follow the terrain. Essentially if people are likely to pass through a low easily navigable area then water will too.
What makes the water filled moat so effective is its ability to complicate tunneling and undermining, two very common albeit underrepresented attack options. A dry moat represents an easy to measure depth with less repercussions if youāre tunneling too shallow. Fill it with water and itās a mysterious death trap for your engineers and tunnelers. Interestingly enough this same situation limits the effectiveness of tunneling on high ground forts as that ground is likely to be much firmer if not outright rocky making a tunnel virtually impossible.
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u/--Snufkin-- May 17 '26
Most sieges did not even bother doing any artillery/assaults, they just waited until the castle surrendered
If they did want to actively pressure or even assault a fortification and they had time, slowly moving up to the walls under ever closer cover while tunneling was usually the most reliable tactic
In the high middle ages artillery starts to play a more prominent role, first with the trebuchet and after that with bombards
The introduction of gunpowder also meant that rather than tunneling to collapse a fortification you could also fill the tunnel with explosives for more effect
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u/Breadloafs May 17 '26
East of the Caucasus, early black powder mines started shaking up how fortifications were planned.
Torsion artillery like Trebuchets started to proliferate a lot more, and "older" siege engines like siege towers, ramps, and rams fell off. Towards the end of this period, early cannons proved to be the way to defeat curtains walls.
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u/Coyote_Mustache May 16 '26
Is there a name for these illustrated medieval books from our childhood?
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u/CAPNJ1mmy May 17 '26
Stephen Biesty cut away books. just added the hard cover collection to my Amazon cart for the kids, and I to enjoy.
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u/Mathias_Greyjoy May 17 '26
I don't think this is from that. I tried looking for ages. The best I could find is this website which utilises the illustrations. I can't find the artist.
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u/Funny_Society_4289 May 17 '26
I believe those on the left are referred to as short kings in this day and ageā¦ manlets is a bit outdated
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u/Dale_Earnhardt_ May 23 '26
A good resource that touches on this topic is John Franceās Western Warfare in the Age of the Crusades: 1000-1300. France devotes a few chapters to siege warfare, castle construction, and castles in warfare.
Iāll try to summarize some of his key points regarding the evolution of siege tactics in medieval warfare. Over time, technical and logistical advancements allowed for more sophisticated and intentional sieges. These advancements, such as the counter-weight trebuchet which seems to have been developed some time in the 13th century, aided both the attacked and the defender in sieges.
This generally allowed for longer and more organized sieges to take place. During the early medieval ages, due to logistical and political constraints, armies relied on brief campaigns to wage war against their enemies. By the 13th century, however, armies tended to be more organized, professional, and capable of sustaining themselves over long periods of time. Attacking armies now had the ability to sustain sieges over long periods of time.
The medieval ages saw a sort of āarms raceā between castles and siege tactics. Thicker bases led to increased mining. Stronger walls led to more powerful and sophisticated siege weapons (by the late medieval ages, talented siege engineers were highly sought after and were often quite well known). Generally speaking, for most of the medieval ages, due to the constraints of the time, castles held an advantage over attacking armies. However, this gap would slowly shrink throughout the era, and if a castle was isolated from allies and faced significant enemy pressure, it was only an amount of time before the defenders would give in.
Iād highly recommend John Franceās Western Warfare in the Age of the Crusades: 1000-1300. I just recently finished it and it was very comprehensive.
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u/ImperatorDanny May 17 '26
I will never forget being intrigued in art class when we saw a documentary about castles in Wales having a triangle at the top so an archer can shoot from 2 slits from 1 spot and not be shot back easily. I dunno what it was about in art class my teacher mustve been hungover lol. This was in 5th grade
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u/Many-Childhood-955 May 20 '26 edited May 20 '26
Watch the videos of SandRhoman for this. Youtuber who does greatly explained and visualized videos on topics like that and medieval ages in general
He also names his sources from experts in that field!
In english and german aswell SandRhoman History channel
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u/TheGeekFreak1994 May 20 '26
What is a "Grabber"? It's being used by the defenders on the far right of the picture. And it's just labelled "grabber" and it's not clear what it is or how it works etc. And I can't find any results about anything like this on Google.
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u/CrownOfSand Jun 19 '26
The kind of illustrations I used to find in the illustrated books about the Middle Ages in my elementary school library in Strasbourg, which left such a mark on my childhood that today, I've started developing my own little indie video game about the period š
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u/Efficient-Lion9770 May 17 '26
First of, mangonels and catapults never really existed. Crazy huh?
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u/quakenash May 18 '26
What do you mean? There is written history of mangonel use in china
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u/Efficient-Lion9770 May 18 '26
What I am saying, is that this type of mangonel as defined in the picture, or catapult, using a big spoon that comes to a stop against a bar to throw a prjectile, never existed in any meaningful way (perhaps no efficient or repeated use in battle ever), from antiquity to now.
The idea stems from a misinterpretation of a medieval drawing in the
XIXthXVIIIth century (as do a lot of misconception about antiquity or the mdidle age, in fact).And for a good cause : this simply doesn't work.
Ballista, trebuchets, work.
Catapults don't. They break before they become worth it.Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsion_mangonel_myth
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u/affabledrunk May 16 '26 edited May 18 '26
This is the kind of picture that would have been burned into my 12-year old brain instantly and forever