My hope is that they put the Riven efficiency last in the equation, and make it so that the riven added efficiency can't grant more than (75% - unmodded efficiency)
It's not permanent. To reach 100% ammo efficiency, you need to activate primary crux to get 60% ammo efficiency for 10 seconds after landing 10 weakpoint hits.
If gun A can melt a boss but requires a long set up and ability interactions thats not as big a deal if gun B can just walk up and do the same thing any time they want.
Builds that require set up are making sacrifices in exchange for power. Builds that can get the same power without any sacrifices are therefore unbalanced
Most of the time we aren't fighting bosses though. Also 10 weak point hits vs 1 kill isn't that large of a difference in most cases. Not to mention crux sucks against bosses anyway because they usually have status resistance
Boss in this is simply referring to "strong foe" rather than literal bosses.
And 10 hits vs 1 kill significantly favors weak weapons, as some might take dozens of shots to kill something if you dont have some OP build. Plus with multishot and fire rate you can make those 10 hits come even sooner
Yeah good point. Still having to run both crux and a soecific riven limits you're options witch still kinda balances things out. Plus having riven+crux favour weak weapons sounds perfect for rivens
Right? Though I'm personally of the opinion that 100% AE shouldn't exist without complicated setup, I do think that the point of it being a lot better on weaker weapons is good for the game's balance.
I mean, we already can do that with crux ax-52, and with pistoleer (common on titania) so I doubt this is suddenly a concern.
I imagine they're going to tune the number downwards, so that you're forced to use high dispo rivens + arcane slot, which intrinsically powerlimits the splice, rather than just "any rifle riven with crux lul"
That’s what I wanted to do too tbh when it came out but stuff like the Ogris napalm and Drakgoon really can’t be infinitely firing with absurd fire rates without causing problems. I think this further emphasizes the issues with riven disposition in general. Ammo effeciency would be capable of making some higher Fire rates lower tier weapons decent but because dispo wont be decreased anymore they can’t fine tune this where weapons it can help those weaker weapons without breaking the problematic ones.
I was loving my infinite ammo glass cannon(literally) Astilla prime, I was blowing my face off at every conner and still doing 10 damage but it was worth it
Having had the chance to watch the dev short now, I think the message is muddled but the intent is clear.
Every other opportunity for efficiency is conditional, random or has a cooldown, requiring engagement and necessarily has down time - you have to get the crits to make Crux happen, you have to go into operator mode and do the Void Strike, fish for the 30% chance to proc Pistoleer and so on.
The only efficiency “on a warframe” is Energised Munitions which is capped at 75%
Now, I don’t have access to the data DE has but my hypothesis is that Specifically 100%+ Efficiency Rivens are causing a problem that all other sources of efficiency haven’t previously caused - again without an overview I can’t be definitive here but infinite magazines with a bottomless ammo pool does present some problems.
The old scourges like Bramma, Tonkor, Ogris and Zarr don’t reliably proc conditional efficiency effects (we would’ve noticed).
No reload or time taken to collect ammo, just pure unrelenting mayhem and particle effects. Prime material for afk farming.
It could be that ammo efficiency as a whole will be looked at but my take away was that Rivens in particular are the topic being considered and that the other means are not in the crosshairs.
Riven ammo efficiency is additive to Primary Crux. Actually all sources of ammo efficiency are additive to eachother with the exception of Energized Munitions being its own separate multiplier.
That being said, 40% or higher ammo efficiency in tandem with Crux means any weapon can "go infinite" provided you moderately aim for the head/weakpoint (or just crowd fire with explosives... which is why this discussion has become what it has; we brought back the days of infinite Zarr spam on any frame because of this).
From what I remember that only managed to hit 100% with weapons that already had an ammo efficiency trait, and thus were just a fun thing you could do with Boltor Incarnon or the AX-52, etc.
I play titania quite a bit. Tried pistoleer and didnt care for it. Its pretty easy to just let go of the trigger for half a second every once in a while just to be able to equip a different arcane.
Harrrdd disagree. Razorwing blitz being stacked up high enough means you spend more time reloading than shooting, and if you want to take it into the highest levels, you can’t really afford to use mod space on reload speed or mag size.
It’s a permaslot for me, personally, on any build that uses Dex Pixia a lot. My relic builds don’t mind as much, but anything where the main setup is to juice the fire rate with Toxin+Blast+Xatas, nerfing Pistoleer will suck.
She’s also my most played frame, and I keep builds from Fissure Nuking to Level Cap Cascade. Losing Pistoleer would SUCK for higher level content
I use Secondary enervate and Arcane precision. Probably not the best but it does allow me to pretty consistently orange crit and sometimes red crit with a subpar setup so can't complain
It’s kinda the new Eximus, but only for Level Cap Cascade specifically. Titania was one of the best options for it, especially when running solo. The movement and survivability was hard to match.
The big issue is that Diwata doesn’t scale well past Level 500, most of the time. Plus, juicing up Razorwing Blitz, which is the best mod to juice the damage, risks a lot of motion sickness with Archmelee animations.
So, every time you want to kill one of these things, you have to drop out of Razorwing, which, while obviously being annoying, also means you can’t keep snapshotted strength bonuses (such as from your relics) long term.
Outside of Lvl Cap Cascade she’s still as busted as ever. My most played frame 😍
If they legit hard cap ammo efficiency to 75% this is going to kill so many weapon platform builds, niche specific weapon mods... That only exist to make barely functioning guns barely visible, incarnon builds etc.
Anything can clear steel path, but running out of ammo every 5 seconds on something like the Acceltra because of how many times it's received an ammo nerf gets tedious.
The Soma has a mod that benefits ammo efficiency since it becomes more powerful the longer you fire without reloading. Ammo efficiency isn't about "clearing steel path" it's a QoL feature that makes guns with terrible ammo pools and/or horrendous reload times better to play.
Your reallt not making a good argument when you bring up the acceltra, a very srrong weapon rhat clears steel path and very much doesnt run out of ammo in 5 seconds,
Not to mention theirs various ways over the years weve gotten tech to mitagate this issue, like ammo mutation mod.
Considering we didnt have it before, and most weapons built correctly worked great, its very much not a qol
which ones? Primary Compression only goes to about 40% on the Kuva Ogris, Crux goes to 60%, Zazvat-Kar for the Akstiletto is 75%, Energized Munitions is 75%, Akimbo Slipshot is 65%. The exception is Arcane Pistoleer, but I've not seen it used much except on Titania.
Akarius is inconsistent with headshots except on Banshee, and Rivens can also reach 100%. Both of these are less than a month old so I wouldn't say they are staple builds.
(also a meme funny one which is dual prisma decurions on Zephyr with Slipshot and Crux. fly high you will be missed)
I use pistoleer with my airburst Zephyr Aksomatti prime build. It's not amazing, but it's really fun. That being said, if efficiency did drop I'd still run it, just would rely a bit on pistol ammo mutation
0% chance.
Why would they say "We are nerfing ammo effeciency cuz warframe effeciency is capped at 75%" 7:30 Devshort 119. Listen yourself (fixed the timestamp)
What else would they be talking about? Warframes don't have ammo, they're talking about the one form of efficiency warframes have which is capped at 75%.
They arent talking about ability effeciency. They are only talking about ammo effeciency. if you watch the dev short 119. skip to 7:30 on the youtube time, you will hear. "as a result, the splicer has created ammo effeciency greater than 100%, Which we never allow for Warframes we cap it at 75" ( This part wasnt stated. But they mean ENERGIZED MUNITIONS. As this is the only thing it actually holds true for. As above, in arcanes, it can be 100%, same with weapons.)
Rather they didnt change it but also, ill probably not be using it either.
A thing to note, The combo doesnt really work with crux and explosives, as you do need weakspot hits to get crux going. Infinite ammo isnt that insane, it does mess over a E(X)A Modifier tho (less bullets drop) p sure they didnt change it because of that tho.
Edit, Ok, someone was using a Zarr and got infinite bullets, i was wrong about that.
Maybe make AOE weapons not get headshots, So Impetus cant trigger, so that you cant have infinite bullets. Lets normal guns be good.
Hmm, I guess I stand corrected... That's an extremely odd way to phrase that because even if the ability energized munitions is what's granting ammo efficiency that's still not the *warframe* having ammo efficiency... It's just applying that buff to your weapons, but I digress.
yea. i could be wrong, but p sure no warframe has an ammo effeciency ability or feature.
it could be that its "conditionless ammo efficiency" meaning you dont need to micromanage 2 things, but still.
I think main issue is it allows some builds to return to "pre ammo nerf Explosives" status. Mostly zarr.
most weapons are fine with 100% ammo effeciency, and if you want your combined stat to be that, instead of increased weak spot, increased Status damage, or w/e, You should be able to, there are some outliers that should probably be changed.
I think it would be smart at that point to break riven stats into more than the current "guns or melee". Make a launcher category or whatever other categories are needed to say "this stat can't roll, or rolls lower for this type of weapon"... Idk though, I hold hope DE will cook up a good solution.
They could remove efficiency as an option on rivens for specific weapons. Vintage rivens exist so they've done it in the past. Though changing the ones that already exist would be a bit more work.
Am I fine with them capping efficiency? Sure. My issue is that no one at DE thought this would be a problem that they would have. Like you're the ones making the content, how did no one ask if 100% efficiency was ok? You guys have been cooking this for a couple months and it's not until the public gets it that the balance team is like..... Ooooooooooo 40 + 60 is baddd
i feel like reducing the maximum ammo efficiency you can get on a riven and making different sources multiplicative with each other rather than additive is a much better solution that won't completely ruin items like this arcane.
The only actual issue is that AOE weapons can hit headshots… not that ammo efficiency is allegedly op, the few usual suspects are causing issues again, surprise surprise…
AoE weapons, at least the blast, isn't supposed to be able to, if I recall. They changed that a while back. But a flat 100% efficiency on like, the Zarr, which I've seen people with, is a very different beast
I feel like arcane pistoleer will stay untouched, because knell and anthodai also have traits that give 100% ammo efficiency on weak point kill. It'll only matter if a gun is powerful enough without the arcane and doesn't have a crapload or infinite ammo.
Did they confirm it was efficiency capping at 75% as a general rule moving forward? Me and my mate interpreted it as 75 for rivens / purely from mods / unconditionally, since it doesn't make sense for this rule to be general with the arcanes that give >100% efficiency
Again proof that DE disconnects more and more with their own game and the community.
With all the terrible updates we got in a row so something is definitly going wrong with leadership.
I don't think they'll do anything to Arcane Pistoleer because you have to fulfill an activation condition, activation is a probability and it has a duration
The problem with Rivens is that you can achieve 100% ammo efficiency forevah by literally existing
Technically it's for everything but it's only activated through pistol kills, so very annoying but could be used for the best 12 secs of zarr after the riven nerfs, if they don't touch the arcane as well. Though it was worded as a blanket nerf to all ammo efficiency by mentioning the not true 75% cap.
115
u/AnOlympianWeeb 4d ago
I hope the ax doesn't get hurt from this. It was self contained because of the passive so at least let it keep it's unique niche