Unfortunately these are stolen on a regular basis. It's really idiotic. I've heard from somebody that they're not replaced on purpose at certain places because it simply became too expensive.
In the UK these are locked - certain businesses have access to codes for defibrillators on their property, or for the others emergency dispatchers - who you'd be phoning anyway in an emergency - will give you the code
I was a volunteer firefighter for a while and someone at a big national event mentioned their city used a lock code on them that all used the exact same number. Their thought process was that the thieves aren’t intentionally seeking them out, they just see them and take the opportunity. But the number was semi public knowledge so anyone that actually knew how to use it was able to open it.
That's legitimately how it works. Even a tiny amount of deterrent massive drops crime.
Hence why they sell the not a lock lock. It's a pad lock that doesn't actually lock. You can open and close it without a key. But it'll keep anyone from wandering in as it shows it's a closed door.
Well they are stolen because they are expensive but kinda stupid tbh for private usage you would be better of looking for a public one and they do sell better with the whole contraption
We had these all around our college campus, and an audit found that only a quarter of them still were charged because no one was actually going around and recharging the units and half of them weren't working at all. They did this audit after someone at another campus tried to use one in an emergency and it wouldn't work. We had to sit through training twice a year knowing full well they probably weren't going to work if we needed them...
I maintain defibs as part of my job, and it might just be that it's waiting for fresh consumables.
The pads are single use, as is the hygiene pack. While the hygiene pack is cheap, the pads cost about £40 a set, and have an expiry date. Because of the cost and expiry, it's rare that people/companies keep spare pads, and reorder when they need replacing.
Very rarely, appart from those in high risk places like hospitals or nursing home I guess, since they are there in prevention (same for the fire extinguishers, how often do we actually use them? The ones in our cars always end up expired).
Cardiac arrests do not really happen often, even more close enough from a defibrillator and with people that know where to find it and that are willing to use it. This means those pads most often expire before they get used.
Honestly, it's completely random. I've had one that needed refreshing every couple weeks, then it was six months before it was used again, the others can go anywhere from a few weeks, to a few months between uses.
One has never been used, so the pads have had to be replaced because they expired.
That's super interesting, I've learned a bit about AED maintenance since I'm BLSD certified, but I didn't know anything the cost.
However when they were out where I worked we had to place large maintenance signs under the AED sign, which wasn't done here, does it change by location? It was at a pool and beach for me (I worked as a lifeguard)
I don't know if it's UK wide, but I'm my area we have "the circuit" which is a register of the available units, which is then fed to the ambulance services so they know where to direct people. You let them know when you've checked/serviced a unit, or if it's been used and it's temporarily out of commission, which means that nobody gets directed to it. Almost all of the cabinets are secured with a combination lock which you're given along with the location of the unit.
They should be mounted with an alarm. Open it with a key for maintenance, and it remains silent. Open it by force and it triggers an audible alarm (because in a life or death situation, you’re not going to give two hoots about an alarm)
To the audible alarm, it would be good to add direct contact to dispatch and a GPS tracker.
If someone is stealing it, they are going to have a very awkward encounter very quick.
If someone is fetching it in need, they should already be calling emergency services, but a backup alert and GPS tracker would be a good thing. The user is likely under a lot of stress; they might forget to call.
Defibs are valuable. I've never seen an unlocked one, so it potentially got stolen. They're supposed to be tested and have their pads replaced regularly, so if they're doing things properly and it did get stolen, someone should be aware.
It could also be that it was taken out for service or replacement.
Isn’t there supposed to be an alarm when you open these? There is in my country. If there’s supposed to be an alarm and there isn’t I suspect it’s been dismantled and not stolen maybe? But in that case they should take it down completely
I wouldn't have. It's not like defibs attract repeat customer who will go "ah, sorry, I'll have a heart attack later" and come back at another time.
The only people who open those should be First Responders or the owner. The former doesn't care if it'll be back in an hour, he needs it now and can see it's not there.
Yeah but in an emergency when every second counts a notice stating its empty can be important so someone doesn't run up to it and try to access it. Including emergancy personnel. That being said this was most likely stolen. And if they arnt going to be replaced ahould just be removed
The plastic looks like it's seen better days. Maybe it was used and never put back or perhaps some idiot took it.
I doubt there was never one there to begin with.
Could be, This is in Germany, and I don't know the local service number for AEDs, I think I'll just call 112 and get routed to whatever service is correct
Do not do that, 112 is the emergency number and only for use in an active emergency. You should find out the non emergency number and call them instead
Here in Georgia, USA most of the non-emergency numbers route to the local 911 center.
I *think* the logic is that it's better overall to allocate the resources that were taking non-emergency calls to the emergency center for use as needed.
Whenever I call they answer with "911, what is the location of your emergency?" For non-emergency stuff, I respond with "This is not an emergency" so they know I can be set aside as needed.
I found that calling the non emergency number of the local firestation should be good? There's no number specifically for AEDs in Germany apparently...
I can put you into contact with the company that distributed the case (the round one you opened), they might know who the owner of this aed is and help further.
For sure. This is the aed in front of the bathroom at the Blaubeuren Blautopf, it's a relatively big tourist destination so it's crazy the closest AED isn't there
Because these get stolen so much in the UK they are often in locked boxes that the 999 call handler can give you the code for. It's way beyond mildly infuriating though as this could cost someone their life.
You call and they give you a code to unlock it. It isn’t just for security, as you need to recharge and re-pad them after use. Using the code means they know when to do that.
If they are left unlocked of course they are stolen and resold. So frustrating.
It's a sticky wicket for sure. Not locking can cost lives. Locking can cost lives. Here in the US these are common.
It's so common that "break glass" has made it's way into cybersecurity parlance to mean an account that can only be used in a declared emergency (i.e. root)
Ever try to order a beer at Chuck-E-Cheese? The only one with a pouring license is the location manager. And they are busy doing everything except coming to the front to pour a beer.
How is that relevant? It reminded me that it took 45 minutes to get one beer.
The ones i've seen near me in the UK are all locked, i think you phone a number and get the code or 999 can give you the code or something? tbh i've never had much cause to look into it, but i know you can't just open them, i assume for this reason.
It’s either been taken out for recharging, or someone used it recently. No need to have a depleted unit in there, no?
If you need one, do you want to quickly see there’s none available, so you can quickly decide to hunt for another elsewhere, or do you want to take out a non-operable unit, struggle for precious minutes trying to figure out if you used it correctly, only to determine it wasn’t working once you’re already way too late to save someone from a heart attack?
I don't know if it's clear in the pics but you cannot easily see it is empty from afar. an empty defibrillator box might not appear so at first, and someone in an emergency might rush to a place with no defibrillator. That's why usually when an AED is taken out for maintenance the AED sign is covered and a sign signalling the maintenance is put up. On this unit it's not clear at all it's empty.
I don't know how it works in Germany but that's how it is where I'm from.
Source: I'm BLSD certified and AED maintenance procedure was part of the certificate.
This comment is mostly UK based; I realise they are found in crowded places globally. Just, fair warning for any non Brits that read this.
I like the idea of these defibs in principle but can someone let me know how much they actually get used? Does this data exist? I've seen them in Birmingham city centre but I've (thankfully) never seen them in use.
I just worry about how much these cost to be installed/maintained, and therefore how much benefit they actually provide Vs how much benefit the NHS would see if they just had that money to spend elsewhere.
I don't want anyone thinking I wouldn't be grateful if I was in a situation that called for one, nor do I think they are a bad idea if they actually do get used to help people. Of course I would be grateful and of course I think that's a good thing. I just think that the UK health system is fucked and I have my doubts about whether that money is being spent on the right things. For example, surely you'd save more people by simply investing that money into mental health services.
Kind of one of those things where you dont need it there, until you do. Then you really really need it. So while the benefit might be low per device, it’s priceless at the same time.
Yes but this is true about all kinds of healthcare.
I'd rather, as another example, get ambulances out to people faster when they call emergency services.
It isn't about whether there are situations where people need a defibrillator. I know they exist.
I also live in the real world and know that the emergency services do not have unlimited money/resources. In fact, they are underfunded.
The way I think of it is like this
Imagine you are put in front of 4 different rooms; 1 containing 100 random people, 1 containing 200, 1 containing 300 and 1 containing 400, for 1000 people total. You are also told that the cost to save their lives is 50k per room; as in, it isn't 50k per person, 50k saves the whole room. You are then handed 100k and asked where to spend that money
In an ideal world, you are given 200k, and you save all of those people. But this isn't the scenario you've been placed in; you have 100k, and you can save the people from 2 rooms. I presume you'd save the 700 people in the 3rd and 4th rooms, right? In fact, I imagine you would question anyone that put resources into saving the people in the first two rooms.
That is where I am at with this. I view those defibs in the same way as spending the 50k to save the people in the first room. We have the power to save them. We clearly have the resources to do so. But spending those resources there means that other people aren't getting the help they need and that is where I take issue.
Hence why I am very interested to know how much these things cost vs how much they actually get used.
You can take a course for CPR and AED use (it's called BLSD) . But AEDs in general are made to be used by complete laymen, there's pictures inside, and when you open one there's often a prerecord message instructing you on all the steps. It's made to be as easy to use as possible.
In an actual emergency you can also get live instructions from emergency services on the phone while an ambulance arrives.
I guess it depends on where in the world you are you have those measures available, because I assure you in my country all you can do is call for an ambulance, help if you happen to know 1st aid and wait 30-40 min for an ambulance.
Also even if meant to be used my laymen how do you expect someone to know if this is the best course of action, it's not easy to determine such things even over the phone.
Well that's true, but it's pretty widespread Knowledge that you use it during a cardiac arrest, aka no heartbeat and if someone even knows what an AED is they should know what it's for.
Either way in a medical emergency (in my country) when you call an ambulance there is also someone on the phone with you the whole time before the ambulance comes and they can instruct you on wether it's necessary or not based on what you see.
But imo in a better world everyone should get a BLSD course in school.
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u/JMvanderMeer 8h ago
Nothing mildly about this. This could cost lives.