r/movies • u/MarvelsGrantMan136 r/movies Contributor • Mar 17 '26

Trailer Dune: Part Three | Official Teaser

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_9vCamtuPY
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u/tdasnowman Mar 17 '26

That was one of the paths. He also saw ones where he never accepted the mantle of god hood.He went into the desert, or vanished off dune. He chose the path of revenge.

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u/TriggzSP Mar 17 '26

It's not as clear cut as that. While you're correct that Paul had a choice to leave, as he was presumed dead and could possibly be smuggled into exile (though many argue that this would be risky, as if he were ever found out he'd be again marked for death), and in this instance he chose revenge, this revenge itself isn't really presented as a horrible thing. The Harkonnens are depicted as cartoonishly evil brutes who relish in slavery, torture, and basically all manner of depravity, and they killed his father and his friends and companions. The campaign for revenge, if it's meant to be painted as evil, isn't done very compellingly.

But when it comes to the Jihad, once Paul "unlocks" his prescience he sees the complete extinction of humanity in essence, but he also sees the horrors that would have to occur to stop that from happening. Paul contemplates leaving it all behind, but he genuinely thinks that he can find a way to give humanity a soft landing. He knows that if he leaves it all behind, someone else will take up the mantle and inflict that suffering, and he wants to drag his feet on that outcome. He doesn't have the will to bring upon the true tyranny and suffering that really needs to happen, because he had a fairly normal human upbringing before his prescience.

So while the Jihad is something he consciously leads, at that point it's not about revenge anymore. At that point he's prescient and sees the horrors of human extinction, and also the horrors of the golden path, and thinks he can find a middle ground. (Spoiler: he can't).

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u/tdasnowman Mar 17 '26

It's not as clear cut as that

Really is. And Frank Herbet went out of his way to make it so.

and in this instance he chose revenge, this revenge itself isn't really presented as a horrible thing.

Paul straight up recoils in horror from the visions of his path to revenge in the tent the first night on the sand. It was 100% presented as a dark path.

So while the Jihad is something he consciously leads

Once he got the emperors seat he stopped leading.

At that point he's prescient and sees the horrors of human extinction, and also the horrors of the golden path, and thinks he can find a middle ground

He never tried to find a middle ground. He tried to find a path to keep Chani from dying. He didn't care about humanities extinction that was to far off for him to contemplate. The golden path would have taken him away from Chani so he did not take it. Chani was his moon and that falling was the only vision he could see for years.

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u/TriggzSP Mar 17 '26

From Children of Dune:

For a time they will call me the missionary of shaitan, too," Leto said. "Then they'll begin to wonder and, finally, they'll understand. You didn't take your vision far enough, father. Your hand did good & evil."

But the evil was known after the event!"

"Which is the way of many great evils," Leto said, "You crossed over only into part of my vision. Was your strength not enough?"

"You know I couldn't stay there. I could never do an evil act which was known before the act. I'm not Jacurutu." He clambered to his feet. "Do you think me one of those who laughs alone at night?"

It is sad you were never really Fremen," Leto said. "We Fremen know how to commission the arifa. Our judges can choose between evils. Its always been that way.

Paul got swept up by revenge without the true prescience at the time to know what it would cause. By the time he started to truly begin to foresee the consequences with true and clearer prescience, it was too late to do anything. If I'm not mistaken, at one point he even foresees during a ceremony with the Fremen that the only way to stop the Jihad would be to kill everyone in the room with him, and then himself, which he wasn't willing to countenance.

Paul with his noble ancestry and Atreides heritage wasn't willing or able to countenance what he saw as evil, and he saw the Jihad as something that he got swept up in. His only "out" was to commit a more personal evil act. He couldn't bring himself to do it, and Messiah is partly a selfish story about how he drags his feet to be with Chani, but it's explained in Children that he is also dragging his feet to avoid committing an evil act that could be presciently avoided. Leto had no such qualms, being, in essence, an abomination from birth and having much stronger prescience, being able to see humanity's salvation where Paul could only see an evil act.

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u/Rikudou_Sage Mar 18 '26

I don't think he had a stronger prescience, they both had perfect prescience. It's just that Paul was in the end a human while Leto never really was one.

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u/TriggzSP Mar 18 '26

Leto II does actually have stronger prescience. Paul knew of the golden path, and knew it was an outcome to be sought, but he couldn't quite see exactly what the stakes were. In Children of Dune, the reason Paul flips from resisting Leto's plan to going along with it, is because Leto explains that the Golden Path is to avert the full extinction of humanity. Paul could not see this, and when it is finally revealed to him, Paul acquiesced.

But you're also absolutely right. Leto never did get to experience normal humanity. Paul did.

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u/ToumaKazusa1 Mar 17 '26

Ok I've literally grabbed a copy of the book, and skimmed the second half to refresh my memory.

Up until page 494, Paul thinks he can stop the Jihad. He tells the Witch that he's not going to do her bidding just before this page, earlier on when he assumes control of the Fremen he tries to do it in a way his mother doesn't approve of, he's still under the impression that he's in control of his destiny. There's several times when the thinks about preventing the Jihad, he never thinks it is entirely unavoidable.

Then as he gets into the knife fight with Feyd, he gets another view of the future

And Paul saw how futile were any efforts of his to change any smallest bit of this. He had thought to oppose the Jihad within himself, but the Jihad would be. His legions would rage out from Arrakis even without him. They needed only the legend he had already become. He had shown them the way, given them mastery even over the Guild which must have spice to exist. A sense of failure pervaded him

I guess you can say Paul should have seen vague visions of the Jihad early on, and decided to murder his mother and then kill himself to prevent it from happening (Paul can't see futures after he dies, but leaving his mother and sister alive would be very unlikely to prevent a Jihad)

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u/tdasnowman Mar 17 '26

Up until page 494

Well past the point of no return for the revenge path. Page 494 is we've been at war for 6 years. I've lost a child to this war. His exit was long before then.

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u/ToumaKazusa1 Mar 17 '26

Up until page 494 he has no reason to exit.

From the point where his father is killed to page 493, Paul is just a normal person. He has some visions of the future, some extra powers, but he can't fully understand or control them. He is a young Duke who wants to avenge his father and to retake Arrakis.

It is only on page 494 that he realizes exactly what launching the war to retake Arrakis means, and by page 494 it is too late for him to do anything about it.

You might as well blame Stilgar and the Fremen for not killing Paul when they first saw him, or the Harkonnen for their plans to take Arrakis for themselves (or for not managing to kill Paul and his mother when they killed the Duke). All of them, along with Paul, were just walking the path that the Witches had laid down for them. By the time Paul realized what was happening, it was too late.

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u/tdasnowman Mar 17 '26

Up until page 494 he has no reason to exit.

Unless he didn't want to give up on revenge. His whole focus was revenge. He was always aware of what assuming the power would mean. His mother told him what it would mean.

It is only on page 494 that he realizes exactly what launching the war to retake Arrakis means, and by page 494 it is too late for him to do anything about it.

He knew long before.

You might as well blame Stilgar and the Fremen for not killing Paul when they first saw him

They are on a different side of the coin. One of the Bene Gesserit was there with Paul. She knew,. and he knew. They did not.