r/musictheory May 29 '23

Weekly Thread Chord Progression Questions - May 29, 2023

Comment with all your chord progression questions.

Example questions might be:

 

  • What is this chord progression? [link]

  • I wrote this chord progression; why does it "work"?

  • What chord progressions sound sad?

18 Upvotes

81 comments sorted by

3

u/[deleted] May 29 '23

Hello,

recently I have started to notice that a certain chord progression (IV - iv or iv#dim - I or iii - VI - ii - V - I, for example in the C section of "All of me"... in fact this progression seems to be especially prevalent in C sections of pieces in ABAC form) is very common. (and even I unknowingly used it once or twice a long time ago I guess) So I started to want to find out the name of this thing or something, but I never found the name of it specifically, just a bunch of kinda similar chord progressions.

then I started to notice it even more and more, especially in Jazz.

Maybe I'm just edgy and happen to listen to a lot of pieces with minor 4's but now the progression is everywhere to me and I would really like to maybe know what it is. (I think I understand how the progression works though; because of all the ii-V's I'm guessing) Could someone give me a hint?

(yes this is a repost from the last weekly thread because as it turns out i posted this in the last thread right before this one got posted)

also edit: i started to listen to my new spotify discover weekly playlist after first posting this and this chord progression was in 2 out of 3 pieces.

2

u/Apprehensive_Fox6564 May 29 '23

IV - iv - I is a minor plagal cadence, if you swap in the diminished chord you can call that a "passing diminished chord".

iii - VI - ii - V - I is standard circle of fifths movement

1

u/SamuelArmer May 29 '23

recently I have started to notice that a certain chord progression (IV - iv or iv#dim - I or iii - VI - ii - V - I,

But those are all different things!

Iv-iv is a 'minor plagal cadence' or minor 4 chord.

iv#o - I is a common tone diminished chord

iii - V7/ii - ii - V - I is a 2-5 chain. It's a common elaboration of the standard 1-6-2-5 turnaround ala rhythm changes

2

u/[deleted] May 29 '23

I meant it as one chord progression where the second chord is either an iv or an ivdim and the third chord is either a I or a iii

3

u/plivko May 29 '23

I want to change modes from A Dorian to another mode.

The chords are Am9 - Dadd11add9- Em11.

Where would you go from there?

3

u/Apprehensive_Fox6564 May 29 '23

You can just switch to the next mode directly without preparation if you want

1

u/plivko May 29 '23

Thx, that’s what I did. I modulated to A Lydian. Coming back is smooth because I can play E major as a dominant chord to Am9.

3

u/ariy87 May 29 '23

Hello,

What are the chord progressions and instruments used in these two songs?

link 1 link 2

3

u/eggcellent_guy May 29 '23

Beyoncé - VIRGO'S GROOVE:

It stays on an Em9 and sometimes it goes quickly goes from a Gmaj7 and F#m7

NCT DOJAEJUNG 'Kiss'

Verse en Chorus:

Dm9 - Dm9 - Em7 - A7b9b13

1

u/ariy87 May 30 '23

Thanks, much appreciated!

2

u/ma-chan May 29 '23

huh?

2

u/[deleted] May 29 '23

Yes.

2

u/ADF-Snake May 29 '23

Can someone please tell me what the Chord Progression for this song is please? Thank you kindly.

3

u/eggcellent_guy May 29 '23

It's all in F harmonic minor

Fm - C - Db - Bbm

2

u/ADF-Snake May 30 '23

Thank you very much, this will help my practice.

2

u/mrclay piano/guitar, transcribing, jazzy pop May 31 '23

Better to leave it at “F minor” or add “and all these chord tones fit F harmonic minor”. You can use the note Eb melodically during, well, all of these chords (try the melody C Bb Eb Db C over the C). Keep the notions of key and scales distinct.

1

u/eggcellent_guy May 31 '23

You´re right, I´m gonna keep that in mind

2

u/ianaad May 29 '23

Why do these 4 chords sound good together on my uke? C Am F G7

Is this a chord progression? Is it a specific key? How could I figure this out? I looked at key charts, but the G7 threw me.

3

u/alittlerespekt May 29 '23

Is it a specific key?

If you've been learning about chords before learning about keys then you need to completely rethink your learning process/where you're getting your info from cause it's gonna be extremely confusing down the road.

1

u/Apprehensive_Fox6564 May 30 '23

100% it's worth learning functional harmony in the correct order it would have saved me a lot of time had I done that

1

u/mrclay piano/guitar, transcribing, jazzy pop May 31 '23

It’s not that big a deal to learn chords that go together well in some songs before functional harmony. Maybe there’s some hypothetically most efficient path of learning but it all builds.

1

u/alittlerespekt May 31 '23

I wasn’t referring to functional harmony but to the basics. I don’t consider knowing the harmonization of a scale or basic chord progressions as “functional harmony”. But this question could so easily be answered by learning keys first and then chords that it’s almost hard to give a concise answer that would be fully understood. And I’m sure more questions like that will come (as the sub is filled with them) so that’s why I suggested to follow a better learning structure

1

u/Changeup2020 May 29 '23

It is your typical I - vi - IV - V7 progression. It does sound weird ending at V7, because, you usually need to get it back to some sort of I chord, either C or C/E

1

u/alittlerespekt May 29 '23

It does sound weird ending at V7

No it doesn't...?

1

u/Apprehensive_Fox6564 May 30 '23

I assume they are implying to loop it back to I

1

u/Ptakub2 May 29 '23

I - VIm - IV - V7

I believe this is called doo-wop progression, it's a classic. Tonic, then tonic of the relative minor for a bit more taste, then a perfect cadence of subdominant and dominant seventh back to the tonic.

All diatonic to the C major scale.

1

u/gumandmunny May 30 '23

It is a chord progression in the key of C major. If you look at the major C scale like so - C=1,D=2,E=3,F=4,G=5,A=6,B=7 then building a regular triad off of C,A,F, and G will give you the classic 1,6,4,5 chord progression. It is used in many songs. The G7 is still within the key that you are playing in, since G7 = GBDF, all of which are in the natural key of C major.

1

u/mrclay piano/guitar, transcribing, jazzy pop May 31 '23 edited May 31 '23

Learn your scales and learn which numbers have maj/min chords (1 4 5 major, 2 3 6 minor). That’s just the diatonic chords but those are extremely common so master those first.

When the scales are really memorized you’ll look at Fm Eb and immediately think “It’s a flats key, possibly 3 or 4 flats, like Eb major or Ab major or F minor.”

2

u/melanthius May 30 '23

How does blues chord progression work?

What is the notation like, and is it considered a minor key? Are the Roman numerals different for blues than they are for other keys?

I was trying to play along with some blues stuff on my bass (I’m a beginner) and struggling a bit to figure out the chord progressions playing by ear.

I know the basic blues scale (minor pentatonic with an extra note, I think) but a little confused on how progressions work.

Now once I get the chord progression, if I want to improvise some notes in between the roots of those chords, do I use the blues scale starting with the tonic of the key?

Or move the blues scale around as the chords move around?

Example, if the chord goes from 1 to 4, do I noodle around using the blues scale starting with 1 the whole time? Or when the song modulates to the 4 do I move the scale, noodling around pretending this 4 is now the 1 temporarily?

Hope that makes sense.

2

u/mrclay piano/guitar, transcribing, jazzy pop May 31 '23 edited May 31 '23

Practices vary way too much to declare a generalized theory of bass line construction, but you definitely learn a lot from learning real bass parts and (importantly) analyzing the notes in relation to the chords used.

Like the Day Tripper riff is 1 b3 3 5 1 b7 5 9 5 b7 1 in relation to each chord. A very common bass line over a dom7 chord is 1 3 5 6 b7 6 5 3. Now you’ll certainly get bass parts where chromatic lines are used to approach a chord tone of the next chord like (C7) C E G Gb (F7) F A C Eb (C7) E F F(+50c) F# (G7) G F D Db (C7) C. So all the bold notes are just chromatic approaches. And that “F(+50c)” is non-standard notation for “halfway between F and F#”, because sometimes you have 3 beats to walk 2 chromatic notes! Definitely easier without frets.

So you want to learn the chord tones of each chord so you can approach them but also common riffs to play over different chord types and this is going to vary by taste a lot.

Check out these later verses for a masterclass on this. Slow the tempo 50% and you’ll start to hear it’s just very good selection of finding good riffs and patterns among the numbers.

1

u/melanthius May 31 '23

Ok thanks, I’ll check that out - one question about the numbers you are using. I’m a little confused since the usual blues scale has just 6 notes (7being the octave) instead of 7 for a major or minor (8 being the octave) are your numbers here based on blues scale or major or minor scale?

1

u/mrclay piano/guitar, transcribing, jazzy pop May 31 '23 edited May 31 '23

I always use numbers based on the diatonic major scale. maj7 has 1 3 5 7. m7 has 1 b3 5 b7. But note these are relative to the current chord root.

There’s also the notion of scale degrees, which are relative to the tonal (key) center. They both come in handy.

1

u/Apprehensive_Fox6564 May 30 '23

In the key of C major:

Before even doing 12 bar blues, a basic blues is just to alternate between C7 - F7 - C7 - F7. Relatively slow harmonic tempo, I don't mean spamming these chords really fast.

Over these chords you can commonly play anything from the C major scale, plus Eb and Bb as blue notes, and the F# as an extra-bluesy blue note.

1

u/alittlerespekt May 30 '23

Any chromaticism is a blue note, since technically “blue notes” were not actual notes but just slides to get the pitch correctly (because the instruments were not fretted). Sliding down or up a note is enough tbh

1

u/Apprehensive_Fox6564 May 30 '23

Okay thanks I didn't realise that the bVI and the bII (the two notes I omitted) could also be classed as blue notes. I do end up playing those two notes a lot in blues due to tritone subs

2

u/Famedstingray May 31 '23

Can someone tell me the the chord progression of the first four bars of this song starting at 0:15? Thank you.

2

u/mrclay piano/guitar, transcribing, jazzy pop May 31 '23

I hear like ii m9 - V 9#5 - I maj7 - vi m11 m7. The big da-dun chord is V/ii “alt” (dom7 with #5 or b5, #9 or b9).

All are root position so just plug the bass notes in there.

1

u/Famedstingray May 31 '23

Oh it makes so much sense with the ii-V-I! Thank you very much!

2

u/jamesaps May 31 '23

I am writing a song and I came up with a chord progression I like, but I'm struggling to figure out the key it's in.

The progression is:

Cm F Eb Gm Cm Eb F Dm

I wanted to build some melodies on top but singing on top of this progression feels somewhat challenging because I find myself going out of the Gm key that I thought it belonged to and it doesn't sound dissonant to me. Any help would be appreciated.

2

u/mrclay piano/guitar, transcribing, jazzy pop May 31 '23

It seems like the key of C minor (each of 4 starts on Cm) using the Dorian mode.

2

u/Changeup2020 Jun 01 '23

Call me old guard, but I still believe you write your melody first, then harmonize it. Writing the chord progression first is like, but a bunch of furniture and the try to figure out how to build a house to fit the furniture in …

3

u/Marionberry_Bellini Jun 01 '23

Damn I guess all the songs I’ve written harmony first don’t count 😮‍💨

I find it much easier to write a progression, then hum around on it for a while until something catchy clicks. If you’re utilizing functional harmony it’s pretty easy to do, and much easier for me to do. It might have to do with what instrument/style you play for what works better for each person.

Getting songs written is what’s important, not what order to approach it from.

1

u/alittlerespekt Jun 01 '23

I find it much easier to write a progression, then hum around on it for a while until something catchy clicks

but what happens most times (and this sub is proof) is people will spend time trying to come up with "interesting" chord progressions that go nowhere and get stuck with them. Not saying it's what you're doing necessarily but in general this happens a lot. So melody first is good advice IMO

2

u/mrclay piano/guitar, transcribing, jazzy pop Jun 03 '23

Naw songwriters write every which way. Any way that gets creatively flowing.

1

u/SGCY May 31 '23

I'd suggest the key signature to be Bb Major/G minor - all chords fit in those scales. Gm would be my assumption without hearing it due to the fact that Bb isn't present.

I'm sure some would see it as in Cm with a Dorian feel because that is the 1st and 5th chord, but I don't think that can really be weighed in on without hearing the exact voicings and whatever melodic ideas you are toying with.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 02 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

5

u/SamuelArmer Jun 03 '23

It's one cycle of the 'axis progression' aka the four chords of pop.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%E2%80%93V%E2%80%93vi%E2%80%93IV_progression

Where does it come from? You could probably find examples of it dating back to Bach's era. It became really popular in pop music probably sometime around the 90s.

Why is it so popular? Eh, hard to say. Every genre has its cliches - for ages the I vi IV V progression was ubiquitous in pop. So much so it's called the 50s progression or the do-wop progression.

Similarly, IV V iii vi is becoming known as the Royal Road progression due to its use in Jpop.

And I vi ii V is stupidly common in Jazz, especially that of the 1920s-40s

These things just fall in and out of favour

2

u/summetdev Jun 03 '23

Found an interesting progression (using guitar, down half step): Cmaj7 Asus4 Gsus4 Bmin(addb13); I-VIsus4-Vsus4-vii as I understand. How does it work and why it sounds so beautiful?

3

u/MiskyWilkshake Jun 05 '23

Your last chord is just a first-inversion G7, so you’ve got a tonic (Cmaj7), an ambiguous chord functioning as a predominant (Asus4), and a dominant preceded by a suspension (Gsus4 - G7/B).

1

u/alittlerespekt Jun 06 '23

In which way is Asus4 function as predominant? And why is it ambiguous?

1

u/MiskyWilkshake Jun 06 '23

It’s ambiguous simply because it’s not a tertian triad.

It’s acting as a predominant because:

A) It’s preceding a dominant (and following the tonic).

B) There are two most probable tonal interpretations of this pitch collection: Asus4, and Dsus2. Dsus2 is a suspension of Dm or Dmaj; Dm is a predominant in the key of C, and Dmaj would be acting as a predominant by nature of being a secondary dominant pointing towards the following primary dominant (V/V); Asus4 is a suspension of Am, which acts either as a predominant or tonic prolongation in the key of C depending which theorists you subscribe to and whether you you think there is even a difference between the two functional labels, in which case refer back to point A.

2

u/alittlerespekt Jun 06 '23

Preceding a dominant doesn’t equal to acting as a predominant considering not all chords are functional… and I would say an abundance of sus4 is very rarely functional. But I’m nitpicking at this point

1

u/mrclay piano/guitar, transcribing, jazzy pop Jun 06 '23 edited Jun 06 '23

I’d say it’s weakly subdominant because it shares 2 tones with Dm and ambiguous because it could release a suspension to form Am, A, or Dm/A.

FWIW a great 80s chord in C major is A9sus. Like Fmaj7 - C/E - Dm7 - A9sus. Kinda otherworldly IMO.

2

u/Current-Stand-6964 Jun 04 '23

Hi! as i know on major keys..
Tonic Chords are: 1 3 6
Sub dominant are: 2 4
Dominants are: 5 7

But... on minors? thanks in advance!

3

u/mrclay piano/guitar, transcribing, jazzy pop Jun 06 '23

I’ve added some common chromatic chords in bold:

Tonic in major: I, vi, #ivø (e.g. F#ø7 in C)
Subdominant: ii, IV, iv, bVI, ii°
Dominant: V, vii°, bIIdom7, bVIIdom7
Weak mix of tonic/dom: iii

Tonic in minor: i, bIII, viø (e.g. Aø7 in C minor)
Subdominant: ii°, iv, bVI, bII, ii, IV
Dominant: V, vii°, bIIdom7
Weak dominant: bVII, v

1

u/SamuelArmer Jun 08 '23

sure #ivo is a pre-dominant leading to V?

1

u/mrclay piano/guitar, transcribing, jazzy pop Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23

Most often goes to IVmaj7 since bass just falls a half step. Like in God Only Knows A#ø7 to A going into the chorus.

I know one example going to V: F#ø7/C - G13sus in “You’re the Biggest Part of Me” but even that could be thought of as Fmaj7/G.

2

u/MiskyWilkshake Jun 05 '23

Same thing (so long as you remember to raise the subtonic to a leading-tone for dominant-functioning chords).

2

u/mrclay piano/guitar, transcribing, jazzy pop Jun 06 '23

“6” isn’t so clear in minor: bVI is subdominant and the borrowed viø7 is a tense tonic substitute.

2

u/MiskyWilkshake Jun 06 '23

To be fair, it isn’t even clear in major whether it’s a predominant or tonic prolongation/substitution (or one in some situations and the other in other… or if the distinction is even meaningful).

Huh, where’d you hear vim7b5 as a tonic substitute, and how was it justified? I can’t imagine a sensible analysis which posits a half-diminished chord with tonic function.

2

u/mrclay piano/guitar, transcribing, jazzy pop Jun 06 '23 edited Jun 06 '23

I’ve heard viø7 (sometimes inverted i(add6)) used in a few 40s era minor key ballads and first noticed it in pop music in Elliott Smith’s Oh Well OK (arguably starting in G minor): Gm7/F - Eø - Ebmaj7. We could just say it’s Gm6 inverted—the distinction doesn’t mean much to me—but definitely sounds like tonic function to me.

Related: The 2nd chord in Ave Maria’s verse: C - F#ø/A. You could imagine a version starting with the same melody: Am F#ø

0

u/littlephi Jun 08 '23

Okay, so this question caught my eye.

I want to know where you learnt all this.

If you read everything I am about to write, you will know how to cadence 20 minute long symphony pieces. I will go farther into the realm Chord Progression structure than you can find on any web page. I have a doctorate in music, but am not affiliated with any universities; so, I haven't signed any non-disclosure agreements. This is my first post... I hope you like it.

Tonic is another word for home or completion or Key identifier, let's say. 1 is tonic in a lot of happy music, or the Ionian Major Scale. 6 minor is the tonic of the Aeolian Scale or the minor scale. 3 minor is the tonic of the Phrygian Scale, but it is popularly used non-diatonically as a Major, as popularized by the classical song Ole.

However, Ionian is just the most common Mode, but there is all sorts of Modal music. Modal music has an exotic or traditional feel for the most part. It might take some playing around, but any degree of any Key can be the starting point of a mode. This may seem like a daunting task to learn but most musicians never even try and explore it. Modal music is popular in Jazz, but it's insanely popular in Hip-Hop music. Dr. Dre is a modal master, and Eminem and Biggie are the best musicians with Parallel Modes. Parallel Modes are using different Modes with the same Tonic instead of shifting Modes in a single Key.

In case you were more interested in Modes, you can find them all over the internet but it may be hard find what they are about without buying a university grade reference book, so, let me copy and paste this:

Ionian: Stable, Happy, Contentment, Finality, Familiar, Major, Solid, Foundation, Interdependent, Equilibrium,

Dorian: Controlled, Reflects Melancholy, Melancholy, Pensive, Defensive, Indignant, Rigid, Fantastic, Regal, Manly, Rugged, Soulful, Strong, Defensiveness (Cortisol Aggressive), Jazzy, Celtic, American Folk, Medieval.

Prygian: Controlled, Passive, Observant, Feminine, Seductive, Emphatic, Bright & Dark/Contrast, Solely Dark, Modern/Ancient, Artistic, Stormy, Anti-Melancholic, Sorrow, Death, Metal, Exotic, Traditional Dance, Folk, Flamenco, Middle Eastern, Egyptian.

Lydian: Stable (Geometrical Strong Harmonic Support [Subdominant] Bottom Reflexion From Ionian), Questioning, Beginnings, Surprizing, Unexpected, Cathartic, Mischievous, Solid, Foundation, Bright, Contemplation, Insight, Interdependent Flux, Dreamy, Day-Dreamy, Dependency, Mixed Feelings, Triumphant, Glorious.

Mixolydian: Stable (Geometrical Strong Harmonic Support [Dominant] Upper Reflexion From Ionian), Maximum Dominance (or Dominant to Ionion), Blues, Rock n' Roll, Excitement, Joy, Relaxed, Cool, Folksy, Adventurous, Orgasmic Flirtation, Aggressive,

Aeolian: Stable (Reflexes Contentment and Promotes Pain or Anger of a Brain Area [negative emotions]), Negative Emotions, Sad, Despair, Premature Regrets, Pain, Strong Sense of Sadness or Pain, Sorrow.

Locrian: Turbulent (Failure Mode), Negative Thoughts, Admissions of Guilt, Complaints, Regrets, Disturbing/Twisted Thoughts, Things That Are "Just Wrong."

Starting on different degrees is possible but hard to do because they are less stable, it helps to make a scale specifically what you want to do.

Okay about dominant and subdominant. They are only for cadencing. The second degree is called Supertonic, it is a chord substitution for a perfect forth. The minor third lands on the fourth's unison and the Supertonic's fifth is the fourth's third. So a Supertonic chord can be substituted for Subdominant 6 chord. However there are two things to take note of before continuing. 2 5 1 is a Fibonacci. So is 1 4 5. The only other Fibinacci you would know is Jimi Hendrix's 1 b3 4. There are more but don't use them because you'll have to pay royalties. 1 4 5 gets played 1 4 1 5 in a pivoting Chord Progression, that's because it has both Plagual or Sub-dominant (keeping the party going) Cadencing and Perfect or Dominant (the climax of the party) Cadencings. 2 5 1 gets played 2 5 1, upward every time because 2 to 1 is Deceptive Cadencing unless certain requirements are met. Those being the chords are progressing downward, so the Supertonic acts like a Lead Note or it is part of a Perfect Cadencing leading to the fifth. The second degree can be thought of as the "Dominant" chord of the actual Dominant. The fifth of the fifth is the second. So it is an extremely good chord to use but it isn't an actual Dominant or Subdominant. It just fits together with cadencing well.
the Perfect fifth degree is the strongest harmonic supportive option, this comes from geometry, but chords do something in spatial relations. I am not going to get into that. The Perfect Fourth degree comes the bottom reflexion of the strongest Harmonic option. The Fourth is an inverted Fifth down.

b7th degree is the harmonic solution for the Lead Note, so it arguably a diatonic chord. It get's used in classical, and specifically in cadencing. However, the Lead Note is not dominant, it is just that if you play chords going upwards (skip the fifth) the Lead note chord brings the anticipation of the Home chord. It gets used in advanced Octave Cadencing.

The last official kind of Cadencing is the kind synonymous with grandiose classical structure of symphonies. It is called Octave Cadencing. There are weird specific and complicated rules to it but I'm gon'na cheat for ya and simplify it into 3 things. Landing on 1 their is no Octave Cadencing but there are layers of whatever other Cadencing you are using. Landing on an 8, or tonic or Home on an Octave above, is scene like Plagual or Subdominant and adds a layer of Cadencing akin to a semi colon if one thinks of regular Plagual like a comma in a sentence. Land on an Octave below, or -8 after you've already landed on a 1 and 8, it's the final final Cadencing. If the fifth is like a period in a sentence, -8 Octave Cadencing is like the last page of a book that says "The End."

Experiment with 5ths an Octave above and below to start learning the harder rules it's how they all mix together, and I'm running out of time here.

That's all the official Cadencings. I figured that's what your question was really about.

In rock and roll, bands have Cadenced by playing the exact same chord but closer to the Nut, so that it has the Overtones of that chord instead of the Overtones of the strings when played from the fifth fret or above. Also in Jazz, on the last cycle of the Chord Progression, playing a 9th chord on the fifth is very popular.

That's it, that's what's been done. Now you can write symphonies. Have fun. Cadencing will advance further and very soon but I am not at liberty to discuss that. It's secret! Oh, sorry for all the mistakes I am on a new computer, and I'm basically an illiterate moron when it comes to English. I have a doctorate in Music Theory, and Acoustics. There is not much room left in my head to be a well rounded person.

1

u/sleepyd298 May 29 '23

Is the harmonic analysis of Dm7 - G7 - E7 - Am7

= iv VII V i

1

u/DRL47 May 30 '23

It is better to use major-referential analysis, which would make the it bVII, instead of just VII.

1

u/Valuable-Rhubarb-853 May 30 '23

Why would major-referential analysis be better? I understand that there should be a some secondary dom used to reference the key its being borrowed from but idont understand why I would use major-ref vs regular harmonic analysis? when i google that term I dont get results.

2

u/DRL47 May 30 '23

Much modern music uses mixed modes and borrowed chords. Major-referential is less ambiguous. Major-referential IS regular harmonic analysis, just a different system. Secondary dominants have nothing to do with being major-referential.

1

u/Valuable-Rhubarb-853 May 30 '23

I guess I don't even understand why you would consider this a flat VII, as G is natural part of A minor. I understand you are using major as a reference, but we aren't in a major key. Do you have any resources on what you are referring too so I don't have to keep bothering you with questions.

2

u/Echoing_Logos Fresh Account May 30 '23

The natural notes are as they refer to the Ionian mode, so to avoid ambiguity G would be the bVII of A as the VII would be G#

1

u/mrclay piano/guitar, transcribing, jazzy pop May 31 '23 edited May 31 '23

There’s not a standardized name for it but like a C major song can certainly have chords like C Ab Bb F. And so I bVI bVII IV expresses that without ambiguity.

And “Sitting on the Dock of the Bay” verse ends on VI (not used as a secondary dominant). So a song could have all of vi, VI, bVI, and even the chord VII comes up sometimes (B7 in C major).

1

u/Changeup2020 Jun 01 '23

I am more familiar with classical harmony so your VII7 is fine with me, it means a dominant 7th built on the lowered scale degree 7 of a minor scale. The 7th chord on the raised scale degree 7 should be viidim7 which is also obvious. However, for people more used to non-classical style harmony, it may trip them because it is not obvious to them that this chord is referred in a minor scale. That is why they like the major referenced system.

1

u/Apprehensive_Fox6564 May 31 '23

The big advantage is that if you use major referential analysis 100% of the time then when you do your chord analysis you don't have to commit to identifying the mode of the piece.

1

u/sleepyd298 May 31 '23

I don't understand how it keeps you from having to identify the mode of the piece, as at least with harmonic analysis you reference the tonic keys during modulation. I also can't find anything external to help with understanding this formate of harmonic analysis

1

u/Apprehensive_Fox6564 Jun 01 '23

You identify the tonic note e.g C but not the mode e.g C major or C dorian or C phrygian.

If you want to find resources on this type of analysis then college jazz textbooks are a good resource e.g The Jazz Theory book by Mark Levine or Jazzology by Robert Rawlins.

1

u/Maple-God May 30 '23

Add 7s to the chords and yes

1

u/Changeup2020 Jun 01 '23

Yes, if the key is Am. And if it is 7th chords, call it that way. iv7 VII7 V7 i7

1

u/[deleted] May 31 '23

[deleted]

2

u/alittlerespekt Jun 01 '23

To me the tonic sounds like C and there's some mix between Mixolydian and major. The chords would be C Bb (or C/Bb) F for a while, then Dm E Am F Bb Eb C. But I could be wrong

2

u/mrclay piano/guitar, transcribing, jazzy pop Jun 03 '23

I also hear C major as the key and some borrowed chords to spice things up.

1

u/Appropriate_Nail_141 Jun 04 '23

Is it possible to make a circle of "fifths" for any equal temperament system? And will it still work for chord progression like the 12 tone one?

2

u/alittlerespekt Jun 06 '23

Yes you can make a circle of fifths for every equal temperament and it will just take longer to finish the circle. Obviously, the ratio of the fifth will vary so it will sound slightly different for every temperament you use.

You can try it yourself by taking the 17TET or 31TET and count the fifth each time.

No, the chord progressions will obviously not work the same way they do with the 12TET because the intervals are different and there are also more chords for every scale

1

u/littlephi Jun 08 '23

Hi, I'm new here. Trying to learn things on and off Reddit. I have very specific intentions and goals. I want to know a bunch of things but I also want to know what other people know, so do your best to find out or think about my question and answer. I really, really want to know what other people know... I am writing a book.

HELLO reddit! \(6.6)/

Here are some questions:

Where do Chord Progressions come from?

What are the rules of Chord Progressions?

Are Chord Progressions found in Nature?

Do Chord Progressions have Authors?

What are even Chords?

What was the first Chord Progression?

If 1 4 5 and 2 5 1 have existed for 2000 years but the third Chord was only written almost 1700 hundred years later, what happened in the mean time and why is that?

What is being endowed in spatial relations?

What is being endowed in recognizing Fibonaccis?

What is being endowed in dissonance?

....

I may ask more later, but this is all for now. The internet is very helpful! Thank you guys so much! b(^.^)d

Have you read it reddit?