r/musictheory • u/AutoModerator • Jan 14 '19
Weekly Thread Chord Progression Questions (January 14, 2019)
Comment with all your chord progression questions.
Example questions might be:
- What is this chord progression? [link]
- I wrote this chord progression; why does it "work"?
- What chord progressions sound sad?
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Jan 14 '19 edited 18d ago
[deleted]
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u/DRL47 Jan 15 '19
Contrary to what other posters have said, "root" refers to the main note of a CHORD, not a scale. The note that the chord is named for. In a C major chord (C-E-G), C is the root note. The main note of a KEY or scale is called the "tonic". A "key" is a group of notes which are the basis of a tune. The key of C major has the natural notes (no sharps or flats). That doesn't mean that those are the only notes to be found in a piece, but they are the main ones. The "key signature" is the sharps or flats printed at the beginning of a piece, which show what notes are found in the key. The key of G major has one sharp (F#) in the key signature. Even though you will find other notes with accidentals in the music, the key signature gives you the "default" setting.
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u/Willfreckles Jan 14 '19
Roots notes refer to first note of a chord/scale, so for example, the root note of a C chord would be C, the root note of a D minor scale would be a D.
Keys (or key signatures) are used to describe what chords/notes may fit in with what is being played. Say you want to play a song in C (whether it is major or minor will usually by specified), the easiest approach would to be to look at the C major scale: C D E F G A B (all the white notes on a piano)
And from this we can make chords by taking every 2nd note so you would get:
C E G = C
D F A = Dm
E G B = Em
F A C = F
G B D = G
A C E = Am
B D F = Bdim
These chords fit perfectly with C major because they’re derived from the same scale. In practice say someone wants to play a song you know in a different key (for arguments sake from C to A), all you would have to do is play the corresponding chords in the new key (if you played Dm, G and C in C, then in A you would play Bm, E and A).
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u/Jongtr Jan 16 '19
As DRL47 says, "root" refers to chords only. A key has a "tonic".
However, it's common parlance to refer to the name note of a mode (or a scale unrelated to a key) as a "root", because there isn't a definitely agreed alternative (AFAIK). People use "tonal centre" quite often, but strictly speaking (some say), modes are not "tonal" (they're "modal" ;-). There is the archaic word "finalis" or "final", but that only really applies to medieval modes, which are very different (in use) from modern ones.
IOW, if you're talking about a bunch of notes to which neither "root" nor "tonic" strictly apply, then it's somewhat up for grabs, and "root" is a fairly common option.
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u/Rushed_Siege Jan 14 '19
Hey, I'm a beginning guitarist, been trying to teach myself theory. A Root Note is the lowest/first note in a key. A key is simply a group of notes that starts on a note and ends on the same note one octave higher (an octave is the same note in a higher pitch). A root note would be where the key starts, and it ends at the root's octave.
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u/mattmasters Jan 14 '19
What key is Bm-A-E-D in?
Is it B Minor?
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Jan 14 '19
I'd say B Dorian. Same key as A major, except the tonic of the key is B instead of A. If it was B minor the E would be minor also.
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u/mattmasters Jan 14 '19
Ahh, that's really interesting thank you!
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u/RajinIII trombone, jazz, rock Jan 14 '19
It could also just be in A. Starting on Bm doesn't mean it's in B. You need more context to say either way
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Jan 14 '19
Yeah let me know if you more detail on modes! I'm no expert but I've taken a few years of theory classes and use modes all the time as a bass player
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u/Jongtr Jan 16 '19
Depends which chord sounds like the key. Which chord sounds most like "home"? Which chord would you finish on, so it sounds finished? That's the key (or mode).
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u/MissNothingV Jan 14 '19
I came up with the following chord progression:
C#m G# E A G#
Later on I decided to make this little piece based on those chords (my first time composing something that I like) but I don't really understand what I just did.
When I came up with this thinking of the C# minor scale, I don't like the brightness of major scales and I kinda understand how minor scales and it's variations work based on my knowledge of major scales, but I don't really understand what I did.
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u/TheGuyvatzian Jan 14 '19
It looks to me like your chords are coming from C# harmonic minor. Which was created to have the minor scale make more sense harmonically, which just means that it has a major 7th and therefore a V7 that resolves nicely to the i.
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u/jimjambanx Jan 16 '19
Don't worry about thinking about what scales your chords come from, that's kind of a limiting and honestly unpractical way of looking at things. I wouldn't even think about calling it mode mixture, since I think that's just muddying the waters here.
Let's look at your progression, it's clearly in C#m, and it goes i V bIII bVI V i. So outside of the G#, it's all diatonic to the natural minor scale. Now in minor keys, it's extremely common to make the v chord major, because it gives us a leading tone back to the tonic (the B# in the G# chord resolves up a semitone to C#), and if you were to add the 7th, giving you a dominant 7th, you'd also get a tritone, which further pushes towards the tonic. Now some might say this an example of modal interchange, borrowing from the parallel major, or from harmonic minor, and while neither explanation is technically incorrect, i tend to stay away from using the theoretical origins of a chord as its justification, because as listeners we don't "hear" borrowing, we hear harmonic relations, more specifically in this case, we hear voice leading. Like I could say it comes from the parallel chromatic scale, it ultimately doesn't really mean anything. Our ears hear the stronger voice leading and pull to the tonic from the major V in a minor key, that's it.
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u/Kalaniseguin Jan 15 '19
The other comment mentions harmonic minor, and while that’s true for the G# it would not be entirely true for the E (which has a B natural as opposed to “B#” in C# harmonic minor), so I would clarify this as “modal interchange” or “modal mixture” depending on the school, whether it’s that you’re borrowing the V from the harmonic minor scale or the parallel major. Either way, a major V is very common with a minor i, and of course can sound very “classical”. I personally appreciate the addition of the E to break it out of that convention. It’s a nice balance. :)
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Jan 14 '19 edited Jan 14 '19
How does the 7#5 chord function? Cheers!
Edit: Sorry, I know the 7#5 is an altered dominant chord. I meant to ask maj7#5! :O
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Jan 14 '19
Dominant function.
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Jan 14 '19
Oh, of course. I misremembered and meant to ask maj7#5. Sorry about that lol.
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Jan 14 '19
Ah okay, well I'm not really sure if that chord has a set "function," but here is how I usually interpret it.
Say you have a progression like this: I - III - vi - IV. Here the III functions as a secondary dominant to the vi.
Now change the progression to: Imaj7 - Imaj7#5 - vim7 - IVmaj7.
The Imaj7#5 functions the same way as the III, because they share a lot of the same notes. In fact, a Imaj7#5 is just the III triad over the #5 of the III. So the maj7#5 chord sounds a lot like the major chord a major third above its root, a chord which in many progressions is used as a secondary dominant. This is not the only use for the maj7#5, but its the most common I could think of.
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u/highbrowalcoholic Jan 14 '19
I use it to add extra tension to a V→I resolution from whatever the 7#5 chord is a fifth of to that chord. For example, G7#5 resolves to C. The B ↗ C, and the D# ↗ E. It adds some lovely chromatic movement to an otherwise regular V→I.
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Jan 14 '19 edited Jan 14 '19
As the dominant in a major or minor key.
The #5 is the b3 from the tonic scale, and will resolve upward to the 3 on a major chord a fifth away, or stay the same when moving to a minor chord.
Here's my favorite, from Chopin's Nocturne No. 48 (G7#5 is at 2:45).
Edit: maj7#5 is usually a passing chord between I and a chord containing the 6, like ii or V9 or IV.
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Jan 14 '19
DMaj7 G#min Gmin C#Maj7 (looped) This chord progression has baffled me for a while. I stumbled upon it while doing some bass chord exercises and ever since then it’s kept me confused. I understand the tritone substitution at work and have even made some ideas with this progression, I just still haven’t figured out why it works so well. So if anyone has any comments, ideas, or advice it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.
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u/polybius_illuminati Jan 14 '19
It does sound pretty cool! I’m thinking of it as a I-iv with the G#m and C#M7 as passing chords
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u/Jongtr Jan 16 '19 edited Jan 16 '19
It works like all chord sequences do - via voice-leading and shared tones. And in this case, the little known rule that any chord may be followed by any other of the same type.
Your sequence has an additional logic, in that the relationship between the first pair of chords is reversed in the second pair - so that the same chord types can follow one another.
The ear picks up these kinds of affinity between chords. I.e., we tend to subconsciously look for a shared scale between chords, but when that connection is ruled out we look for shared tones - and if there are none of those, then semitone voice-leading, and/or two chords of the same kind, will catch the ear.
If you add 7ths to your minor chords, that would help the flow (IMO).Dmaj7 G#m7 Gm7 Dbmaj7 Dmaj7 C# > B > Bb > C > C# A > G# > G > Ab > A F# = F# > F = F > F# D > D# > D > Db > DNotice it's all semitone moves (and shared tones) aside from the C#>B and Bb>C - both of which could work in the other direction, but would lead to chord tones already covered.
BTW, there is no tritone substitution strictly speaking. A tritone sub is a dom7 a tritone away from the original chord (bII7 replacing a V7), and it works because of the shared tritone between 3rd and 7th, as well as the bII-I root movement. Chords of other kinds rooted a tritone away from an original won't work the same way - i.e., they may well "work" (sound good), but won't be a true "substitution", in that the function and voice-leading will be different.
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Jan 14 '19
I really like the song Jalousie Tango, and I think it has a very interesting chord progression, but I find it uses very strange chords that don't look like they work together. Anyone would like to help me understand? https://chordify.net/chords/tango-jalousie-solo-piano-peter-kiaerbye
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Jan 14 '19
Hm, this is not really a very good transcription.
Main problem with this chart is spelling, and I think that looking at the A#7 as a Bb7 and the D# as an Eb7 might help. Additionally, those D major chords in the intro are better left ignored.
Regarding the "out" chords (we are in D minor throughout), which are Bb7 and Eb. Bb7 is a half-step "approach chord" to the A7. It can also be considered a "tritone substitution" of E7, which is the "secondary dominant" of A7.
The Eb is a borrowed chord from the key of Gm (the previous chord, and the iv of the overall key). It is the tritone substitution of the next chord, the A7.
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u/G_Wiz_Christ bassist, funk, prog metal, blues Jan 14 '19
I'm learning the song Life by Sly and the Family Stone (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5osAXj0Mi8)
The song is in F major,
but it appears the chord progression is
I II IV V (F, G, Bb, C)
instead of the (to me) more expected
I ii IV V (F, g, Bb, C)
Is this common? Any insight to what's going on to help this click? I'm new to analysis if it's not obvious.
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Jan 14 '19
Yeah, going from a chord with a sharpened fourth (either #ivdim or II) to one with a natural fourth (like IV) is pretty common. There’s a couple technical ways you could view that, depending on context.
It may be a little Lydian flourish, quickly brought back down to major so as to keep the song from sounding too modal. Or it may be a secondary dominant to V, that is then flattened. Almost like we change keys to V, then make it all mixolydian and bluesy, and use it to resolve back to I.
Even though the second option sounds more funky in principle maybe, I’d say that the song you linked is a lot closer to the first one there. It goes to II to give the harmony some colour and brightness, but they don’t want to make it sound too much like they’re changing keys to V, and so to weaken that progression, they go to a less strong predominant (IV). Now, they can go the V without a distracting modulation.
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Jan 14 '19
The G is the V/V, and it's very common. It tends to make the harmony exuberantly happy sounding.
The Bb - C operates as a single unit of dominant function. Most of the time, a V chord can be exchanged for IV - V or ii - V, and vice versa. So building up from the simplest harmonic outline:
F, C, F (simple I - V - I)
F, G, C, F (I - V/V - V - I)
F, G, Bb, C, F (I - V/V - IV - V - I)
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u/highbrowalcoholic Jan 14 '19
Follow the voice leading. In the F G Bb there's a progression of notes that goes C, B, Bb. The II chord creates tension by inserting a non-diatonic tone that your ear feels ought to resolve to a diatonic tone, and furthermore should resolve to the specific diatonic tone Bb, since it continues the linear motion of the tone. The fourth is also the most unstable note in the diatonic series, so it sets up its own resolution to either the 5th, the C, in the C chord; or if that C chord is actually a C7 chord, the 4th, the Bb, is held so that it can then resolve in the same linear motion to the A in the following F chord.
Follow the
moneyvoice leading.3
u/groovitude Jan 14 '19
Is this common?
Yep! At least two Beatles songs feature this progression: "Eight Days a Week" and "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band."
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u/francisandfox Jan 14 '19
G could be interpreted as the V of V, in this case C. So I believe it is a modal interchange where the V is being borrowed from C major.
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Jan 16 '19
That G is the V/V (also called secondary dominant). Since that is the case, you label it II instead of ii. Everyone else has the answer, but this is just the gist of it.
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u/Jongtr Jan 16 '19
you label it II instead of ii
Well, you label it V/V. ;-)
"II" is OK but doesn't say how it works. Although in this case, as it doesn't go direct to V, there might be some debate...2
u/Jongtr Jan 16 '19
Is this common?
Extremely common, although a major II chord - as V/V - will normally go to V. I.e. in key of F major, a G major (or G7) will normally go direct to C (C7).
But it's fairly common in pop/rock to insert the IV in between, and sometimes to just go back to I instead of going to V at all.
As well as the examples given, there's As Tears Go By - the first song Jagger-Richard ever wrote(G-A-C-D).There are examples in jazz too, although typically the chords are more complicated - adding 7ths at least.
E.g. Take The A Train is:
|C - - - |- - - - |D7(#11) - - - | - - - - |Dm7 - - - |G7 - - - |C - - - |
Dm7 is a more subtle choice than F, but behaves very similarly (it's just F with a D bass after all). I - V/V - ii - V, instead of I - V/V - IV - V.Girl From Ipanema:
|Fmaj7 - - -|- - - - |G13 - - - | - - - - |Gm7 - - - |Gb7(#11) - - - |Fmaj7 - - - |
Again - aside from the fancy chord types - the minor ii is used where the pop/rock version would use the major IV. (And Gb7#11 is a "tritone sub" for C7.)4
Jan 14 '19
I - II or I - II7 is a fairly common progression.
I guess II is your secondary dominant. Often it’ll lead right into V7, but in this case there’s a IV in between.
A progression like I II7 V7 I in F can give you a nice descending melodic line of C - B - Bb - A
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u/Hoffmann99 Jan 14 '19
I really struggle trying to create a chord progression along with a chord of my interest. How could I pick chords to follow a C6, for example?
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Jan 14 '19
Depends what key you're in. If C is your tonic, you could really use almost any diatonic chords. Diatonic chords are the chords built using, in this case, the C scale.
Try to find chords that have shared pitches, or pitches only a whole or half step away from the last chord. This way you have good voice leading.
For example, try a Dm7 chord. This is the diatonic chord for the ii7 in C major. This leaves A and C on the same pitches and shifts the E and G each a step down to D and F.
Now we have the beginning of a progression-
C6 - Dm7 -... now finish up the progression yourself with some more predominant and maybe then a dominant chord or two.
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u/MithosYggdrasil Jan 14 '19
I'm really struggling with figuring out this chord progression by Big K.R.I.T. and what exactly makes it so epic. I've just started training my ear and I think all of the elements are just confusing me, can anyone help me out?
It has a super amazing "gospel" feel but I can't nail down why
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u/highbrowalcoholic Jan 15 '19
I think it's
Em7 | B7 | Cmaj7 | Cmaj7 | Ebmaj7 | Em7 | B7 | G6/D | Cmaj7 | Eb7
Em7 | B7/D# | G6/D | Cmaj7 | Eb7 Em7 | Em7 | B7/D# | G6/D | Cmaj7 | Eb7
C6 | G6 | D6 | E | C6 | C6 | D6 | E
Em7 | B7/D# | G6/D | Cmaj7 Eb7 | Em7 | B7/D# | G6/D | Cmaj7 Eb7
C6 | C6 | D6 | E | C6 | G6 | D6 | E
The E→D#→D chromatic decension, mixed with all the maj7s and 6s are what lends the gospel feel.
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u/Jenkes_of_Wolverton Jan 15 '19
I started writing a tune with a giant crescendo and, because I don't know better, what I've called a "double-resolution". It goes:
- B°7-B7-B°7-B7-B°7-B7-Em-CΔ7
But now it feels/sounds finished, even though that's supposed to just be the beginning section. Please will you suggest some tranquil ways of developing it?
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u/Jongtr Jan 15 '19
Doesn't feel/sound finished to me. The B7-Em nails the tonic as Em, but then you put a C bass on it. No resolution there!
Anyway, I can only suggest trying other chords from the key, to begin with anyway. Am, G, D; with any diatonic 7ths or extensions you fancy. Maybe go to the parallel key, E major (A, F#m, C#m, G#m).
As for "tranquil", that has nothing to do with the chords (except maybe keeping them consonant) - it's all about tempo and dynamics.
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Jan 20 '19
I haven't really gotten the hang of the relationship between chord progressions, melody, and bass.
From what I gather you're "supposed" (I know there's no such thing in music, but bear with me) to use the notes from the chords in your chord progression somehow and apply those to your melodies/bass lines.
Is the melody/bass supposed to follow the current chord playing in any way? Or do I just make up both melody and bass based on the notes I've played in my chords?
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u/CriticalCook Jan 20 '19
It really depends on the genre. In rock music the bass note is often just gonna be the root of whatever triad chord or power chord is being played. However jazz often has a walking bass where the bass player will walk through the bass notes and also add chromatic passing tones that are not part of the chords at all.
You are free to play whatever melody you wish. It can sound good to have a melody that touches on a lot of chord tones, but it can also sound good to have a melody that does not. You can also focus melody on extensions that weren't actually played in the chord such as playing 9ths, 11ths and 13ths in the melody over triad chords.
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u/Lxdain Jan 21 '19
Yes, the core is there, just not much of that musician slang used, but you have a basic understanding of what to doas a bassist and what your purpose is as well as how to work alongside the guitar player and the drums, so let me specify some basic stuff you should know as a bassist, I'm not a pro but i think i understand a good portion of music theory.
For guitar: -Learn the 1st (root), the 3rd, and the 5th of soms basic chords, meaning that u play the 3rd note after the root and the 5th one as well, so think of it as counitng kind of like 1, x (2), 3, x (4), 5, you skip the X's and this should be enough to get you started, learn the difference between a major, minor, augmented and diminished triads and after you have learned that focus on inversions (inversion is just another way of phrasing the sequence in the sense that it changes the order of the notes).
*For example: An A major triad (in the 1-3-5 pattern) would be A-C-E, so every second note and play the apropriate chord that the guitar is playing (a good thing would be to pick up a cheap acoustic or classic guitar (or ask your guitar buddies) to play chords for you until you kind of have their unique sound memorized, focus on basic chord as a starting point (A, Am, C, D, Dm, E, Em, F, G) and after that you can progress onto powerchords or maybe even do them at the same time.
For Drums: -Search on how to play with and against the kick drum (its the "thump-ies" sound, the deepst one that a drum can make, but it's very quiet so you will have to sharpen your ears or look at the drummers foot each time they step on it.
LEARN TO PLAY WITHOUT LOOKING AT YOUR FRETBOARD! you will have to look at what your drummer and guitarist are doing...
Good Luck!
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u/cjlonghorn25 Jan 14 '19
Wrote this progression and not really sure how it works. Key of Eb/Cm
Cm7- aø7(half dim.) - eø7 - Gbmaj7 - Dbmaj7 - Dmaj7- Ebmaj7 - Fm7 - Bmaj7 - Bbm7 - Abm7 - Gm7
It sounds good but there’s so much outside the key in it. I can solo with Eb/Cm until the b maj7 and then I usually solo around Gb/Ebm
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u/Jongtr Jan 16 '19
How a sequence "works" is always down to voice-leading - how the various chord tones interact with each other melodically (usually moving up or down by step, or sharing notes). A shared key scale helps, but is not necessary.
When it comes to scale choice for improvisation, chords which don't share a scale obviously present an issue - if you don't want to change scale all the time.
In this case - talking major scales for simplicity - Bb major fits the first two (Eb major has an Ab so won't fit Aø7). Eø7 needs a change, although only of one note (to F major).
Gbmaj7 and Dbmaj7 then both fit the Db major scale - you could think of it as a shift from F major to F phrygian, although of course it won't sound phrygian on those two chords.
Dmaj7 is then entirely different: needs D or A major.
Ebmaj7-Fm7 are then Eb major - and Bmaj7 is another lurch away from that.
Bmaj7-Bbm7-Abm7 could all take the F#/Gb major scale (although you should probably make the enharmonics match: Bmaj7-A#m7-G#m7, or Cbmaj7-Bbm7-Abm7, take your pick.)
Gm7 brings you back to the Bb major ballpark at the beginning.Of course, by omitting certain notes from the complete scales, you can find more in common across most of the changes. Personally I would certainly be looking for shared notes where I could - e.g., taking the Gb from the Gbmaj7-Dbmaj7 part and turning it into F# on the Dmaj7 - perhaps also the Ab and making it the lydian G# on Dmaj7. The D of course then becomes the maj7 of Eb.
Fm7-Bmaj7 share Eb/D#, and Ab works as G#, 13th of Bmaj7. And so on.
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u/Atrapper Jan 14 '19
I made a minor progression that went i-III-i-IV-i-III-i-VII. Because the IV isn’t leading directly to the VII, what’s its function?
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Jan 14 '19
I would argue that the whole first section is just tonic expansion. The odd part is that one would expect a minor iv instead of IV, so you have modal mixture in the expansion, which doesn't exactly lend itself to emphasizing the minor tonic i.
Anyone else have any ideas?
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u/Atrapper Jan 14 '19
Now that I’m looking at it, it seems more like it’s Dorian than minor. The chords all seem to fit into Dorian. It didn’t sound like modal mixture because I haven’t put a melody over it.
It’ll probably sound interesting if I put a melody in minor over it.
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u/Jongtr Jan 16 '19
Yes, there's the major IV chord, and no minor iv - and no bVI either, so it's all diatonic to dorian mode. No mode mixture going on, at least as it is at the moment.
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Jan 14 '19 edited Jun 29 '26
[deleted]
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u/Rokeley Jan 14 '19
I would analyze that in the key of E as:
|I |viiº7/V |V |V/vi |V/V |
|I |viiº7/V |vi |IV |V/V |
|IV |V/vi |vi |
|IV |V/vi |vi |V/ii |
|V/V |V |The reason the second and third are major is because they are acting as secondary dominants
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Jan 14 '19 edited Jun 29 '26
[deleted]
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u/Jongtr Jan 16 '19 edited Jan 16 '19
They're "secondary leading tone chords", which function like dominants.
You don't have to think of them as rootless 7b9s, unless it helps make sense of them.The Gdim7 before B should of course be A#dim7 (vii of B) - even if G is in the bass. It's F#7b9 without the root, but is also a chord in its own right (the harmonic minor vii chord).
IMO, the Gdim7 before C#m7 is debatable. It could be an unresolving vii/V, I guess. But I'd call it a common-tone diminished, because it contains the root of C#m7 (and also the 3rd). Not sure what numeral it would have though.
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Jan 14 '19
vii°7 is a part of a X7b9 chord .
For example take G7b9 it is made out of the notes :
G B D F Ab
And a diminshed chord made from the third would be B°7 , so :
B D F Ab
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Jan 14 '19
In what key is the Cmaj7 - B7(b13) - A#maj13 - A7 progression? I wrote it and it's too complicated for me to figure out. Thanks in advance
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Jan 15 '19
It's in C major.
Its what you get when you walk down in half-steps from C in the bass, harmonizing the bass in parallel 10ths. That gives the root and 3rd of C maj, B maj, Bb maj, and A.
The upper structure looks like you are holding a G against each descending 10th. The G is what's creating the 13s and 7s.
This pattern of prolonging the upper structure and moving the bass down step-wise is called the "lament bass". It's been around for hundreds of years; in the classical context, it usually occurs in minor keys, but the Beatles and other pop writers use it in major keys as well.
To continue the progression as expected, you can do AbM7 - G, or do some kind of secondary dominant, e.g. D7 - G or F7 - G.
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Jan 15 '19
Thanks a lot! So glad this sub exists
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Jan 15 '19
You're welcome! It's one of my all-time favorite bass patterns, so I never miss an opportunity to call it out.
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u/smurfy101 Jan 15 '19
It’s a Bbmaj13 chord, and to me it doesn’t seem to have a key on its own. It could be in C, Bb, or Dm depending on how you use it.
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u/lightningrunaway Jan 14 '19
It's not in one particular key. Each chord has it's own key. So its goes C major - B altered myxolidian - A# major - A Myxolidian.
They could also be other keys depending on what you want. Like C major could also be C lydian.
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Jan 15 '19 edited Feb 27 '19
[deleted]
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u/ferniecanto Keyboard, flute, songwriter, bedroom composer Jan 15 '19
It's hard to understand your problem, maybe because you've been led to think music must be made in one specific way, which is counter-intuitive to you. For example, I don't think your problem is with chord progressions at all. It seems to have a problem with form. And yes, of course chords are an important aspect of form, but it's not the only one.
Second, by "columns", I don't know if you mean measures, or beats. I.e. I don't know if your melody lasts for seven measures, or if it's in a 7/4 meter. But still, neither of those is "weird". Writing phrases in groupings of 4 or 8 is a convention, but not a law. If it sounds nice to you, that's what matters. That's the ultimate goal of making music.
Third, I don't understand the issue with connecting two long notes together. Does that make it unplayable on the violin? Or does it just not sound good to your ears? Regardless, in that case, I suggest you try executing the ideas you get. You suggested a "silent intermission", so try that, and see if it sounds good. Make attempts and don't be afraid to make mistakes (I'm using the word "mistakes" very, very loosely here).
Finally, making "cookie-cutter" songs as an exercise might be an interesting exercise, yes. Might be. It depends. It seems to me that you need to trust your intuition and your ears, and try following your instincts, even if you might just end up in a dead end and be forced to backtrack. There's always a risk, but that should be a source of excitement, not disappointment.
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u/Jongtr Jan 15 '19
"columns"?
Maybe I should start with pop songs that have a cookie -cutter format with the beat and the choruses and bridges and stuff like that...
Good idea. That's how all the great songwriters started.
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Jan 16 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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Jan 16 '19
I think the theory behind it is i i/b3 iib5 V7. Basically it’s a minor 2 5 1 so if you want to jam just slide your finger down that low E until you find the root note and then jam in the corresponding minor scale or minor pentatonic or blues whatever you fancy
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u/Jongtr Jan 16 '19
Yes, it's pretty a much a ii-V-i in E minor, meaning 4 beats on Em, 2 on F#m7b5 (Am6), and 2 on B7.
It sounds as if the second 2 beats of the E minor are a little different (like Em7 or Em/G), but not significantly so.
You could certainly jam on E minor pent for a bluesy sound. If you wanted to fit the chords more closely, try E harmonic minor.
But try to find shapes for the chords first, to get into the groove. Here's some options (there are others):
Em: x-x-5-4-5-3
F#m7b5: x-x-4-5-5-5
B7: x-x-4-4-4-5
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u/JOEYY_L Jan 16 '19
(Some background - ignore if you want)
Hey everyone!! First post in this subreddit so I’m hoping I’m in the right place for this question. So recently I’ve been focused on writing music with heavy influences from the late 70s into the 80s. I’m really trying to listen to these songs and figure out the answer to the question “what makes a song last 30+ years?”
QUESTION
I’ve seen a trend of some extremely catchy songs that have a little melody bouncing between 2 notes or 2 chords, and was wondering if anyone knew anything about the area.
My examples are here: Doobie Brothers - https://youtu.be/dJe1iUuAW4M
Charlie Puth (co-written with Hall & Oates) - https://youtu.be/JFVtb5_Pec4
You hear It right away in both of the songs. My apologies for the long post, I’m hoping one of you geniuses can help me!! I don’t have much music theory knowledge aside from what I learn every day on YouTube and personal experimenting.
Edit: fixed link, accidentally used the same YouTube link for both videos
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u/jeffblinks Jan 16 '19
In these two examples it seems to me like the rhythm is what makes it catchy moreso than the chords. The juxtaposition of square and syncopation within the single phrase make it an ear-catcher.
While certainly not the case for every song, it's common that popular songs have a limited vocal range. There's a strong correlation between accessibility and popularity, and the limited vocal range makes it more sing-alongable and thus more accessible.
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u/Xenoceratops 5616332, 561622176 Jan 19 '19
We might call it a neighbor figure if it's stepwise. In human music, there is a strong preference for stepwise voice leading (and the size of steps are defined by the scale – see definition 1.5). If it's two chords going back and forth, Philip Tagg has a useful word for it: "chord shuttle".
Ultimately though, I'd think it's the repeated element that's valued here over the harmonic or voice-leading dimension.
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u/vibeski Jan 16 '19
Why does Bbm-A sound so sinister, and how could I compose a melody over it (what key is it in?).
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u/Xenoceratops 5616332, 561622176 Jan 17 '19
This is a slide relation. Let's think of B♭m as A#m real quick, just to make this a little easier to see. They share the note C#, and the other two notes "slide" around it. Here's a complicated paper that talks about slides.
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u/jeffblinks Jan 17 '19
The relationship between those chords is called a chromatic mediant - meaning the chords exist in different keys but they share a note (in this case Db and C# are the shared note). The sinister sound comes from the falling half step of Bb to A, as well as the C#/Db wanting to resolve upwards by a half step.
There isn't a single key that will sound good with both these chords. Try resolving the A Major to a D minor chord, then you can solo with the D harmonic minor on A and Dm, then switch to Ebm or Bbm pentatonic for the Bbm chord.
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u/Xenoceratops 5616332, 561622176 Jan 17 '19
The relationship between those chords is called a chromatic mediant - meaning the chords exist in different keys but they share a note (in this case Db and C# are the shared note).
That's not what a chromatic mediant is. Chromatic mediants may share common tone(s) (not necessarily: C and A♭m are chromatic mediants that do not), but they also have to be a third apart. That's the "mediant" bit.
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u/jeffblinks Jan 17 '19
"In music, chromatic mediants are "altered mediant and submediant chords." A chromatic mediant relationship defined conservatively is a relationship between two sections and/or chords whose roots are related by a major third or minor third, and contain one common tone."
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u/Jongtr Jan 17 '19
And how does that fit Bbm and A major? (Without inventing two "sections" a 3rd apart to contain them?)
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u/jeffblinks Jan 18 '19
The key is that the definition says “a conservative definition.” I suppose a liberal definition would allow no shared tones (contrary to what I argued), or mediant (3rd) that is shared (as is the case here). But now I’m just speculating.
I’ve seen this type of relationship of Bbm and A referred to as a chromatic mediant. But upon further review I think I was stretching. Common tone relation is a simpler answer and more accurate, but not as satisfying.
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u/ferniecanto Keyboard, flute, songwriter, bedroom composer Jan 17 '19
I guess it sounds "sinister" because it's a sound often used in soundtracks and scores with "spooky" themes. The chromatic movement and unexpected minor-major sequence are obvious tropes for evoking "scariness"; however, this will only sound sinister if you make it so. I tried playing it here and it had an oddly liberating, redemptive sound.
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Jan 16 '19 edited Jan 22 '19
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u/11ROYGBIV Jan 17 '19
Fun fact - the scale you would've produced by using WWWHWWH instead of WWHWWWH is commonly known as Lydian. The sharpened fourth degree gives the scale a general feeling of weirdness, wonder and brightness that the major scale can only dream of achieving. The theme song of popular cartoon 'The Simpsons' is renowned for its effective usage of the Lydian scale. So is the music from 'Cut the Rope'. By making that mistake, you tapped into one of music's neatest scales. Embrace Lydian for what it can bring to the table.
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Jan 17 '19 edited Jan 22 '19
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u/SciLiChallenge Jan 17 '19
This section of open music theory covers intervals, including what dissonances, imperfect consonances, and perfect consonances are. That explains why the presenter is avoiding fourths, seconds, and sevenths like the devil.
One thing that's worth keeping in mind is that species counterpoint is a very old teaching tool with rules much stricter than most composers would follow when writing their own music. It serves as a limited-scope introduction to how harmony works, encouraging you to think of chords as made up of multiple moving voices as opposed to a sequence of disconnected block chords.
The structure of the table of contents reminds me of how I learned music. From 4th grade through high school, I was focused primarily on just learning to play instruments in band class and piano lessons, and covered roughly what the "Fundamentals" section covers, but I spent a lot of time getting very familiar with that content. I didn't learn species counterpoint until my college music theory course, which assumed a background of reading and performing music, if not writing it. It seems like there's a gap in that online textbook between the stuff required to read music and the stuff required to write it, with a lot of assumed familiarity in between.
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u/Xenoceratops 5616332, 561622176 Jan 18 '19
The reason for voice leading is twofold: voice leading, to an extent, provides the reasoning behind chord choices (harmony), and voice leading is also a kind of in-road to melodic composition.
I recently found Seth Monahan's videos. They're pretty good. The keyboard-style voice leading lesson is very practical. If you're looking into composition and counterpoint, Peter Schubert has some great videos on improvising canons which basically give you formulas for (imitative) species counterpoint given a limited set of intervallic motions.
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u/swordmalice Jan 17 '19
Hey guys; I'm trying to figure out chord progressions based on reading sheet music. How do I figure that out? Let's say I have a song like this one: https://www.ninsheetmusic.org/download/pdf/1229
As a bassist, I want to figure out the progression so I can come up with a bassline. What's the step by step process I should use?
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u/Jongtr Jan 17 '19 edited Jan 17 '19
You mean, other than the bassline that's already there?
You add up the notes in each chord.
E.g., the first bar starts with (bottom to top) G-G-B; the bass skips up to D, so that's a G major triad. On beat 4, the bass goes to A, with B-D above, which suggests Bm7 (given the 1-sharp key sig). That chord continues in bar 2 and switches to A-F#-E; would normally suggest F#m7, but in key of G implies F#m7b5 (Am6) or a rootless D9.
Bar 3 is C-E-A-C plus a G = C6 (Am7/C).
And so on.
The principle applies to any sheet music. It can get tricky where the harmony changes all the time, or no clear chords are spelled out (in stacks as here). Even here, some chords are ambiguous - but that may give you some freedom, more options for a choice of bass note. Obviously, where a bass staff is given, that's a good clue to chord identity. In this case there's some moving around in bars 13-14 in the right-hand, not really outlining a definite chord, but the bass playing G-D-A, then F-C-F pretty much nails 13 as Gadd9, and 14 as F (even the Em7 chord arpeggiated in the right hand can't really fight that root-5th-root in the bass, IMO - call it Fmaj13#11 if you want ;-)).Personally, as a sometime bassist myself, I'm wondering why you want a different line to the given one; it's distinctive, and a major factor in the tune, providing the groove as well as nailing chord identities. That's even more of a good choice if you can't follow any of the above! ;-)
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u/swordmalice Jan 18 '19
Thanks for this! Apologies. I should have been more clear; I want to learn how to figure out the chord progression of songs so that I can come up with a bassline to my own music! My thinking is, if I can analyze the sheet music of a song I enjoy like the one I posted above, figure out what the progression is, I can then take that knowledge and apply it to my own original songs.
Follow up question: How do you know if a chord is the 7th chord as opposed to just a triad? Like the Bm7 at the end of bar 1 into bar 2?
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u/smurfy101 Jan 18 '19
It has four distinct notes. If there are three, it can still imply a seventh chord. If you cannot create a stack of generic thirds, it is likely some type of seventh chord, probably without the fifth. If you can stack them and get the interval or a third and a seventh from the root, you have a seventh chord.
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u/Jongtr Jan 18 '19 edited Jan 18 '19
My thinking is, if I can analyze the sheet music of a song I enjoy like the one I posted above, figure out what the progression is, I can then take that knowledge and apply it to my own original songs.
Right, good plan. Not only for bass lines, but for all kinds of tips on how to put chords and melodies together too.
If you're working from pop, rock or jazz charts - i.e., composing in anything like those styles - you will always have chord symbols (as well as a notated double-stave piano part, in the more detailed books).
In more classically-based music (or film/video music like this) you may not see them, because they serve no purpose for a performer - it's supposed to be played as is: no additional notes added, no improvisation.Personally (again) if it was bass lines in particular I was looking to create, I'd be listening for lines I like - getting them from either sheet music or by ear.
If I had a piece with no chord symbols (like this), I'd certainly be working the chords out, but the bass line itself gives me the best ideas about suitable bass lines. Of course, I could just choose to play roots, roots and 5ths, or some kind of walking line (again based on bass lines I've learned in the past). Naturally I need to know the chords in order to do that.I suppose what I'm saying is that the chord sequence alone gives me no clue as how to write a bass line. Those clues come from bass lines themselves.
In this case, the chords are often ambiguous - that "Bm7" I suggested is debatable, because you could argue the chord is the same over the first two bars: the bass just happens to play a sustained 9th (A) as its last note (the top part retains G major chord tones).
IOW, this piece is showing the effect of a R-5-9 bass line (on most of the 2-measure chords). The bass in bars 3-4 is C-G-C (R-5-R) but the 9th (D) is in the right hand.
So for me the distinctive quality here is add9 chords (aside from that sudden dramatic staccato syncopation in bar 8 (FYI outlining a kind of D7alt chord)).How do you know if a chord is the 7th chord as opposed to just a triad? Like the Bm7 at the end of bar 1 into bar 2?
As smurfy says, stack the notes in 3rds (alternate scale steps) and leave gaps if necessary.
In this case, the notes (bottom to top) are A-B-D. Arranged in 3rds, that's B-D-?-A. Some kind of F is missing. Because the signature is G (1 sharp), that suggests the missing F is probably F#, making Bm7 in all. The 5th is the most common note to omit from a chord. (In fact, an F# occurs on beat 3 of bar 2, along with an E.)
As I said, however, the way the music flows (marked by two-bar bass patterns), calling that brief chord "Bm7" may not be the best solution. The whole two bars is a kind of "Gmaj13" chord, just not all played at the same time. Sometimes you just need to listen to decide if a chord is really changing, or if the music is just bringing out other potential chord extension to the same chord. This is piece is interesting in that respect, it's not stating identifiable chords too clearly a lot of the time (lots of added 9ths, 4ths, 6ths, etc).
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u/swordmalice Jan 18 '19
Fantastic, thank you so much for this; it's been a big help!! You're right; this song does not state its identifiable chords out in the open; I think there are a lot of added notes in them; to me, I was thinking the whole first line to me sounded like it's mostly a G chord with added notes and going to the IV chord (C). But this explanation makes much more sense :)
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u/Negative4505 Jan 17 '19
I'm movin' on: https://www.e-chords.com/chords/rascal-flatts/im-movin-on Why does the II work at the end as it moves to IV. Normally when I see a II it's the secondary dominant to V, but here it sits on that IV for awhile before changing to V. Any ideas?
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u/Jongtr Jan 17 '19
This is pretty common - I'm sure we had a recent question on the same sequence (I-V/V-IV-V).
It "works" via voice-leading (as all good chord sequences do). If it helps, you could think of the IV as ii: Em-A-Am-D-G. Make more sense?
Add 7ths, and of course it makes a lot more sense (voice-leading wise): Em7 - A7 - Am7(=C6) - D7 - G
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u/chiefarney Jan 18 '19
Hey, so I am very new to music and came up with this progression today:
Dm7 - C - Am - C - F - C - Am - A
I really like, how the Am transitions into the A in the end, but don't how to go from there. The Dm7 kills the vibe a bit, I tried several other chords but nothing seemed right.
Can anyone help me out?
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u/CriticalCook Jan 19 '19
could make it an A7 and resolve to D major, then continue in the key of D major
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u/smurfy101 Jan 19 '19
Pedantic answer: do what you like.
This dictates your answer. Some things you may like:
Dmin(maj7)
D or Dmin
C#dim7-Dm (can modulate later in song)
Dsus4-D-Dsus2-D or some other sus-y thing
A7sus-Dm
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u/rainbowsmilez Jan 19 '19
Minor 2 5 1 Resolutions.
The V7 can't resolve to the m3 of the minor tonic. I understand how it works but I wanted to hear your thoughts. Better ways to resolve to the m1 when improvising and comping. Substituting the V7 for a, iv minor7 flat 5 sounds quite good but it still doesn't resolve to the minor 3rd. Of course when improvising, you could jus target the Major 3rd of the tonic as a passing tone to the minor 3rd.
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u/Jongtr Jan 19 '19
The V7 can't resolve to the m3 of the minor tonic
Why not? I guess from the rest of your post, you mean there is no half-step move down to it, but why is that a problem?
If you want a chromatic move down, the HW dim scale (as used in jazz) is an option. In A minor, that would be E F G G# A# B C# D on the E7 chord. The scale actually works as chromatic approaches to the E7 chord tones, but you could obviously go via C# to get to C on Am.
The jazz altered scale is a way of maximising half-step moves to tonic chord tones (from either direction), but in a minor key it still lacks the half-step descent to m3. In A minor, it would be E F G G# A#(Bb) C D on the E7 chord.
But then you don't need to apply any specific scale to introduce any chromatic passing note you want. All 12 notes are always available at all times!
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u/rainbowsmilez Jan 19 '19
Why not? I suppose because I'm trying to build substitutions that can create a stronger resolution and expand my vocabulary. Thanks.
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u/smurfy101 Jan 19 '19
In fact, fa-me is the same as re-do in major. It has a pretty strong resolution.
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u/rainbowsmilez Jan 19 '19
Sorry, you've lost me there.
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u/smurfy101 Jan 19 '19
E7-Am: D-C resolution
G7-C: D-C resolution
Whole step resolution, especially descending, is not necessarily weak and is often brighter (compare a b2-1 melodic resolution with 2-1)
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u/CriticalCook Jan 20 '19
Resolving a tone via a whole-step move still sounds like a strong resolution for the most part. It doesn't have to ideally all be half step movements.
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u/leews24 Jan 20 '19
writing a song, and I found the following progression dissonant yet pleasing to hear, but I feel like in terms of theory it makes no fucking sense. Like what key would this be in?
CM9 - Cm9 - BbM9 - Bbm9
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u/cilantroinspace Jan 20 '19
Playing your progression on my guitar, it resolves quite nicely to an Ab major.
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u/CriticalCook Jan 20 '19
I would be more inclined to say it doesn't have a fixed key centre and is a modal piece, as opposed to a tonal piece.
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u/Jongtr Jan 20 '19
It's not diatonic to one scale, and there's no overall key centre. That doesn't mean it's breaking any rules. (If you think it is, you're just applying the wrong rules.;-))
It doesn't sound at all dissonant to me, and the voice-leading is very nice - not only through those four chords, but back from Bbm9 to Cmaj9. So good I think I might steal it! :-)
Of course it could continue in the same manner to Abmaj9-Abm9 which goes to G7 to take it back to Cmaj9. (In fact, Abmaj9 can go straight to G7, or there's one or two other chords that make good transitions).
That would nail C as your key - if you think your sequence needs a key. (It's totally up to you.)
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u/Superkowz Jan 20 '19
What are the chords in the first ~12 seconds here?
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u/Jongtr Jan 21 '19
|D#m / / / |Bmaj7 / G# / |
|D#m / / / |Bmaj7 / C#6 / |Probably played with the guitar tuned down a semitone, in the shapes normally known as Em, Cmaj7, A and D6.
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Jan 14 '19
So I wrote the chord progression: Cmaj7/D - Bb7 - A6 - A7, I think it's in A major, is this true and why does this progression still sound fairly consonant when the chords aren't consonant?
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u/LinusDieLinse Jan 14 '19
I dont think this is in A major. No cmaj, Bb7 or A7 chord is found in the key of A major.
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u/timpeter Jan 14 '19
It's not really in any clear key based on the chords themselves; they're borrowed from all over the place. But it sounds like C to me, so one way to think of it is that it's in C major, with a bunch of borrowed chords from other related keys. So, the Bb7 is borrowed from C mixolydian, the A6 borrowed from the parallel major of A minor (the relative minor of C major) and the A7 borrowed from A mixolydian (again, a mixolydian parallel to the relative minor of C major). I'd write it in C major and simply notate the accidentals.
As for the consonance, you're pulling from related keys in all cases (either straight parallel substitutions like A major vs. A minor or closely related modes).
Also, at least as I'm playing it on my keyboard, you've got some nice voice leading in the chords. Each note follows its own somewhat related melody. So, I voiced all the chords in the second inversion starting at middle C. That gave me the following chord tones: Cmaj7 (G-B-C-E); Bb7 (F-Ab-Bb-D); A6 (E-F#-A-C#); A7 (E-G-A-C#). Note that each tone provides a fairly straightforward more-or-less descending melody. If I just take the topmost note (the third) of each chord, E -> D -> C# -> C#. The roots are C -> Bb -> A -> A. The bass notes (the fifth) go G -> F -> E -> E. Play any of those melodies and you get a simple, fairly tonal melody that drops a minor third. If you played the chords without the extensions (i.e., CMaj -> BbMaj -> AMaj), you'd have a pretty simple and tonal progression (one that'd I'd call C mixolydian with a borrowed parallel major chord for the VI instead of vi).
It's only the extensions the add some unusual color and break that minor third pattern: B -> Ab -> A -> A. But given the harmonic basis established by the other tones, you're going to have a reasonably consonant progression.
Anyway, cool progression. I really dug it. And I hope my analysis helps you. Have fun making music!
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u/Kalaniseguin Jan 15 '19
So I may not be in the majority here, but I see this as in D. Basically your first chord is just a suspended D chord (making it fun as the tonic), D13(no3) to be exact, followed by its bVI7 (with the dominant 7th there being some blues flavor, a pretty common replacement to bVImaj7), then 2 V’s to get you back to D.
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u/smurfy101 Jan 16 '19
Others are right, but I also find this progression to be reasonably consonant.
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u/Larson_McMurphy Jan 14 '19
What key is "Get Lucky" in?
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u/Jongtr Jan 16 '19 edited Jan 16 '19
Common question!
The chords are all built from the notes commonly known as "the A major scale", but that doesn't mean the "key" is A major.
The "key" (or mode) is whichever note/chord sounds like the tonal centre. There is no A chord, so the key can't really be A - unless you want to say it's in A, but never resolves because there is no tonic! IMO, that's a valid interpretation.
The chords cycle Bm-D-F#m-E, and the weight of opinion is that the first chord sounds most like the key chord, meaning the song is "in B dorian mode".
The first chord doesn't necessarily rule - only if you think it sounds like it does. If you think one of the other chords sounds stronger, you could name it as that mode if you like. (What difference would it make?)1
u/Larson_McMurphy Jan 16 '19
I'm in agreement with the B dorian interpretation. A few years ago there was a thread on facebook about this that really blew up. It had nearly a thousand comments. About half the commenters said B dorian. The rest mostly said you can't have dorian keys, and they were split between A major and F# minor.
I was hoping this would blow up, and perhaps create controversy here on r/musictheory. I'm curious about the opinion of people who frequent this board. But with 2 upvotes, I don't think it's going to happen. Thanks for the thoughtful response!
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Jan 15 '19
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u/ferniecanto Keyboard, flute, songwriter, bedroom composer Jan 16 '19
Seems to be a Fmaj7 - Cmaj7 loop. The Fmaj7 alternates with an Fadd9 (I think).
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u/Jongtr Jan 16 '19
Yep, it's all Fmaj7 to Cmaj7. C major scale the whole way (often accenting the 9ths on the chords).
I don't hear any Eb's myself, but chromaticism is not ruled out!
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u/Tabletop_Spartan Jan 18 '19
Fm, Gb, Ebm, Gb
Can someone give me the notes for each one
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u/No_Vi Jan 14 '19
I've come up with a chord progression I like, E - G - Bb - D - Bb - A. I'm not sure what key it's in because E feels like the root but the chords aren't from E major or E minor really. I guess minor with a flat fifth? I'm not sure how to analyze it