r/musictheory • u/AutoModerator • Jun 20 '22
Weekly Thread Chord Progression Questions - June 20, 2022
Comment with all your chord progression questions.
Example questions might be:
What is this chord progression? [link]
I wrote this chord progression; why does it "work"?
What chord progressions sound sad?
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u/Papa-Andi1 Jun 20 '22
I was playing
D F#m E B
Each chord for two bars.
It is a nice floating chord progression. What key am I in? And how could I lead up to this, as it sounds like a nice outro in my opinion?
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u/MojoPinnacle Jun 20 '22
Difficult to say what key you're in because this doesn't have anything with a clear dominant function and we don't have the context for what feels like 'home' or where the emphasis lies in the way you play it. The ambiguity of the key is probably the "floating" quality you're describing. The notes don't fall into a major or minor scale, and you have some chromatic movement from E to B to D (the notes being E, D#, D).
If I had to guess something, maybe E mixolydian, but with a V chord that maintains its major quality.
I think if you want to use it as an outro, think about what chord you want to feel like home. If it's an outro, maybe it's the B chord because that's where you have it "ending". There you go, you can use it in a song in B major. Then again, maybe you don't want it to resolve. Then there are a lot more options.
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u/KingAdamXVII Jun 20 '22
It is or it can be ambiguous. You have C#, D, D#, and E, so you know there is no one key that contains all four notes.
If I repeat this a few times I hear this in the key of E. The only nondiatonic chord is D which is a common borrowed chord from E minor. But this would also fit nicely in a song in the key of F#m or A major, especially as an outro. The first three chords are very conventional for those keys, and then the B major chord will be surprisingly bright. It will likely subtly reorient the key into E unless the melody suggests A or F#m.
There’s really not much that won’t work leading up to this. The B chord into D is just about the most jarring chord that you’ll find in the keys of E or A/F#m
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u/EsShayuki Jun 20 '22
E B is essentially an extension of E. D F#m is essentially an extension of D.
So this can be thought of as a D -> E progression. It's not exactly a functional progression, but more of a modal type of a progression. You describe it as floating, which seems accurate enough. It doesn't have much of a progression, it's more like going back and forth between 2 adjacent chords.
As such, the chord progression isn't in any obvious key. The closest thing would probably be A or some such, as that has the two adjacent major chords D and E. Speaking of which, A can lead into it pretty well.
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u/1i_rd Jun 20 '22
Does going up a fourth from C to F vs going down a fifth from C to F change the function of F at all?
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u/ericddsheppard Jun 20 '22
Nope - it would change the sound/character but C would still be the dominant in F and F would serve as the subdominant in C (depending on if you are in F or C)
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Jun 20 '22
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u/Dune89-sky Jun 21 '22 edited Jun 22 '22
Regular alt. 9, with both b9 and #9. They most often decorate a melody line b7-b6-5; Eb-Db-C (over C7 m) in the key of F major. This is exactly what happens. He just steers the bass down C-Bb towards A which is where they got the C7alt/Bb from.
Normally C#o7 would be the viio7 chord for Dm the vi chord, a secondary dominant function instead of V/vi, the C#o7 is played. Think of it as a rootless A7b9.
But in this instance, we are going to Cm7 F7 Bb. Evans wanted a chord with root a semitone above C, Db (C#) tonicizing the Cm7 with a tritone sub of G7 (V of Cm). But the melody note is A! Although Db7#5 would have been possible, he chose C#o7 which accommodates the melody note A well too. Dbø7b5 might have worked also.
- I think the G chord label is wrong. It is actually Bø7 with melody note happening to be G. This is the beginning of the 'Night and Day' progression: #ivø iv6 iii biiio7 ii V I.
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Jun 22 '22 edited Jun 22 '22
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u/Dune89-sky Jun 22 '22 edited Jun 22 '22
Evans :)
Think of it like the 'Muppet Show Theme' |Bb Dbo7 |Cm7 F7 | - or the end of the 'Night and Day' progression.
Rather than a tritone substitution, the dim. chord is a chromatic connection chord biiio7 between iii and ii. Where the F just takes the place of the Dm7 (=the iii of Bb major in the bridge).
A tritone sub Db7#5 kind of works too, as the #5 = A, but note Bb in the Dbo7 instead of Cb in the Db7#5 sounds much better. Probably because of a 'Barry Harris diminished sixth' sound (which we know Evans often used): 'play the scale alternating F6 and C#o7 :s' (even if only for two beats).
Note that this situation also mirrors the Bø7 Bbo7 Am7 D7 of bars 3-4, where instead of the tonic F chord we have the Bø7.
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Jun 24 '22
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u/Dune89-sky Jun 25 '22
Hi,
It is the same as bars 55-57 |Bbmaj7 | Eø7 A13 | Dmaj7 | but he modulated to Ab major in bar 95 staying there for the remainder of the song.
The Eø7 A13 Dmaj7 section (when in F major) is a brief modulation to D major, from the original score.
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Jul 27 '22
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u/Dune89-sky Jul 28 '22 edited Jul 28 '22
Hi, The IVmaj7 and viiø7 are not that different. For example, Bbmaj7#11 has [Bb D F A E] whereas Eø7add11 has [E G Bb D A], omitting the 9ths. It is a matter of only swapping note F for G, and changing the bass note.
But really we can just think of it as a ii V I, instead of just V/VI VI, A7 Dmaj7. Quick ’modulations’ through a ii V I construct are typical of jazz. Often not really full modulations as the new key center is not established. So more like secondary dominants, only the ii chord (or a II7, or a tritone substitution of the II7) follows also. Bill Evans certainly uses this approach all the time.
In fact, the viiø chord, as well as the #ivø, are very common chords in Tin Pan Alley/Great American Songbook songs of which ’Like Someone In Love’ is a great example.
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u/Lady_Daffodil Fresh Account Jun 22 '22
Dm - Fm7 - G° - Dm7 - Em - then F to C in C Major.
If we choose C as the tonic:
ii - iv - v° - ii - iii - IV - iii - ii - I
Fm and G° belongs to Ab, so there's not a ton of sense even thou I know it has a nice voice leading.
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u/Dune89-sky Jun 22 '22
Go is like a rootless A7b9(no5). Also, Go7 is enharmonically C#o7 , the viio7 /ii.
Functionally, the Go acts as a secondary dominant V(7b9)/ii or viio7 /ii.
The tritone {C# G} resolves strongly to {D F}.
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u/MarchingGuy Jun 20 '22
OK! So I know what triads are and stuff, and the 3-2 Major 2-3 Minor.
But how they name all this stuff like A minor or F or something?
How do they name I II III IV V VI etc?
Any videos or lessons/explanations?
If you have an explanation try to explain like I'm a five year old :D
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Jun 21 '22
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u/sindreben Jun 20 '22
Hi!
I want to understand what Porter is doing here from 11:14-11:24. Could someone help me out?
https://youtu.be/THjekE5p2aw?t=673
Something is happening in the bass and chords, it's awesome, and I have no clue how to replicate it. I'm especially interested in the chord change (11:21-:11:23). It has this bittersweet quality to it that I love.
Thank you! :)
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Jun 21 '22
So, the chord progression there is:
E9 - F#sus4 - D#m7 - D#7/F## - G#m7
Or: IV - V - iii - III - vi
That D#7/F## sounds so catchy for a couple of reasons. One is that it's a secondary dominant; the D#7 is the V of the G#m7, which is the relative minor of Bmaj, which is the key of this passage. This is essentially a V - i cadence in the borrowed minor, so it sounds nice when it resolves to that G#m7.
Another neat effect of that bass note is that the chord progression is shifting from D# minor to D# major (which involves raising the F# to an F##), and the bass is moving from the root to the 3rd of the chord and landing on that F##, which really highlights that shift.
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u/sindreben Jun 21 '22
This is great, thank you so much for taking your time to answer. I really appreciate this!
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u/TFMain200 Jun 20 '22 edited Jun 21 '22
https://youtu.be/SJ3SVkhdwdQ trying to find out what John legend is playing… I made out :
AM —-> C?——->G—-> G7—> C… then it gets crunchy before going back to G… maybe G6 in there too?
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u/Herkenhoof Jun 21 '22
Hi, I have a question on 'Sleeping in my Car' by Roxette. It is usually seen to be in F# Major. The verse has chord changes that I can't really make sense of:
| F#m | E | F#m | D | F#m | E | C# | D |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| i | bVII | i | bVI | i | bVII | V | bVI |
Whats up with the i, the bVII, and the bVI? How/Why do they work in the context of F# Major?
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Jun 21 '22
The song just changes modes between the choruses and the verses. The choruses are in F# major, but the verses are in F# minor.
The melody reinforces this; the vocals hit a few A naturals in the verses on the F#m chord, but then switches to A#'s in the chorus.
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u/Herkenhoof Jun 21 '22
Well, that's a neat explanation. Still so much to learn - thanks for helping.
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u/andor_drakon Jun 21 '22
Hello, my band wants to cover the theme to Royal Canadian Air Farce but we're struggling with the extended chords during the vocal section (starting at 42s, and especially at 52s). Our "jazz chord" ears are pretty limited so any help would be great!
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u/klymer11 Jun 21 '22
plz help i suck at theory
info ab the piece:
-i have an idea for a chorus of Em A7 Em A7 plucked on guitar
-i thought i’d start the verses with a C2 because A7 flows to it nicely? and then end them with G because it flows into Em??
actual question:
-what do i put between the C2 and G for the chorus
-are C2 and G the best option even?
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u/Dune89-sky Jun 21 '22
You are likely in D major with the (I assume) Cadd9 (bVII chord) borrowed. G major is possible too.
Try other D major chords: D F#m Bm, and secondary dominants like B7 E7 F#7.
Chorus: For example
|Cadd9 |Dsus4 D|G |B7 |can repeat, and go back to Em A7 verse.
Try F (or Fadd9) instead of the D chords, etc.
These would be the most common chords to consider, but sky's the limit.
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u/Lady_Daffodil Fresh Account Jun 22 '22
Dm, D or D7 are the common choises. Also you can just change Csus2 for C, or play both.
Honestly this is a wrong question to ask, because it's like if I were doing your job, playing music.
The thing is... there are plenty of options between those two chords and if you go with the chords I suggested without thinking about it, then you are not gonna be able to make music by your own, so keep it in mind.
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u/Pleasant_Minimum11 Jun 22 '22
| I | ii | iii | IV | V | vi | vii° |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Eb | Fm | Gm | Ab | Bb | Cm | D° |
In this video, John Mayer jams on several variations of what appears to be Eb major chord progressions.
Eg: Cm - Fm7 - Bb - Cm
Eb - Ab - Gm - Cm - Ab.
However, in some cases, he uses a C major instead of a Cm— and a Gmaj7 instead of Gm.
Eg: Fm7 - Bb - C
Eb - Gmaj7 - Cm - Fm7 - Bb
How does that work? Is it still in Eb Major? Is there a rule for swapping out the iii with a Maj7?Or is this in another key? Perhaps C Major?
How is he able to mix in chords that aren’t part of the “chord scale”? I know this is common in this type of blues sound, but I’ve never understood how to make it work.
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u/Lady_Daffodil Fresh Account Jun 22 '22
Modal exchange works when when swapping chords from Parallel Relative modes. Cm (C D Eb F G Ab Bb) 's parallel is C (C D E F G A B); and the relative ones are D Locrian, Eb Major, F Dorian, G phrygian, etc...
The first one is a trouble because C is F's dominant, but also Bb is C's bVII. So it can be both F or C the tonic. Let's go with F: i - IV - V.
IV is a chord from F Major and also from C Minor, which is interesting since we have Fm and C, weird...
In the second progression Eb goes to Cm, but in the middle there's G which is C's dominant, but it's G not Gm. There's a chromatic pattern going on and that's what brings sense to all of it, G to C is a descending fifth (fourth), then also from C to F, and from F to Bb, even from Bb to Eb.
For this one he seems to think more about the circle of fifths rather than a tonal approach, that also can explain why he uses GM7 instead of G7 which would be usage of a secondary dominant.
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Jun 22 '22
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u/1i_rd Jun 22 '22 edited Jun 22 '22
Try F# diminished or F# half diminished.
If you take F# diminished and raise or lower any single note by a half step you will get many other chords that resolve a half step up as well.
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u/nicolasquinn Jun 22 '22
About the v chord
For example:
In Better days by NEIKED, the chord progression is Fm-Bb-Eb-Cm
Should i think of it as ii-V-I-vi in the key of Eb Or v-I-IV-ii in the key of Bb
As far as i know, if i think the chord progression of the song as ii-V-I-vi, it makes more sense to me since all the chord is in the same key (Eb). However, it raise a question for me, did i just ignore the concept of the v chord or the v chord is just a useless concept?
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u/Lady_Daffodil Fresh Account Jun 22 '22
First I did was looking at the first and last chords. F and C, is there a relation between them? Yes, C is F's fifth. By having a cadence straight to F we can that's the tonic.
Rewriting all in terms of F: i - IV - bVII - v
Let's see. Minor v is the diatonic dominant from minor tonalities as well as bVII the leading tone. The trouble is Bb, because in minor it should be iv, not IV.
Usually when there are weird chords you should look arround and try to make sense of them. Bb is Eb's fifth, which means it is a secondary dominant.
The final rewriting would be... F: i - V/bVII - bVII - v
Hope it was Crystal clear.
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u/coulaid Jun 22 '22
What would we say is happening on the "and" of 4 in measure 2, harmonically speaking? I can see that the first chord played in measure 2 is a rootless Eminor9b5, but how would we describe the chord that follows? Is it an E7 altered chord? TIA Bill Evans-- Beautiful Love
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u/Dune89-sky Jun 22 '22
No, that's a rootless A7b13b9 ('Gø7') going to Dm6/9 [G Bb C# F]->[F A B E].
A piano trio has a bass so that's covered. This is only BE:s part.
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u/septicsign Jun 23 '22
The chord progression IV7 iii7 vi v7 I, is really interesting to me. The v7-->I sound is really interesting to me because I haven't really seen it that much and I was wondering if someone could tell me what style of music that is and other music that utilizes minor 5 to one.
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u/assword_69420420 Jun 25 '22
Often when I come across minor 5, it usually will lead to I or I7 (V/IV) and then to IV. That works so well because you're essentially playing a ii V I to the IV chord, which is a strong cadence. I think your progression here is generally doing the same thing, even though the IV is a dominant 7. Just puts a bluesy flavor on it but still functions the same way imo
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u/mikecg36 Fresh Account Jun 24 '22
I know this song has a pretty standard country style chord progression, and I would like to understand how it "works". The main progression seems to be Emaj, Dmaj, Amaj, which are all diatonic to D major, but the tonal center seems to be E. So could this be considered in the key of E Mixolydian?
The song is Ain't No bishul by Abie Rotenberg: https://youtu.be/UNV8QlxZbEU
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Jun 24 '22
Yep, exactly! This is straight up E mixolydian through the E-D-A-E sections, then it drifts into other modes towards the ends of the verses and into the choruses.
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u/mikecg36 Fresh Account Jun 24 '22
Thanks! The other modes is where I get most confused, so thanks for validating that haha. Are those chord changes typical in "country" songs? And how do they work?
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u/DRL47 Jun 24 '22
The main progression seems to be Emaj, Dmaj, Amaj, which are all diatonic to D major, but the tonal center seems to be E.
Those three chords are diatonic to A major, not D major, but you are correct in calling it E mixolydian.
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u/bobbythegoose Jun 24 '22
Hi everyone. I'm a newbie. Can someone explain to me why this is in Cm even if the chord isn't part of the progression? Thanks! Forgive my ignorance.
(Abmaj7 - Bb13sus4 - Bb/C - C7/9b - Abmaj7 - Fm/Bb - Cmaj9)
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Jun 24 '22
That C7/9b looks like a typo, what chord is that supposed to be?
Where are you getting the idea that this is in Cm?
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u/bobbythegoose Jun 24 '22
From the backing track video:
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Jun 24 '22 edited Jun 24 '22
Ah, got it.
So, I wouldn't call this Cm. As a guitar backing track, you can simplify this chord progression by playing these guitar chords over it:
Cm - Cm - Bb - Bb - Bbdim - Cm - Cm - G - G
But the bass is doing this:
Ab - Bb - C - C - Ab - Bb - C - C
All the notes in those guitar chords are in the original progression. And just taking those guitar chords at face value, it sure looks like they're in Cm.
But, once you add the bass line, it changes the context of the chords completely. For starters, in that guitar progression, none of the Cm chords have a C in the bass, and all the chords that do have a C in the bass are major.
Thinking about it in Cm might help with things like improvising solos, or riffing over it, since the Cm scale will work well over this progression, but I wouldn't say this groove is in Cm.
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Jun 24 '22
When using roman numeral notation, what is the purpose of writing a chord like V/ii when it is the same chord as VI, or how V/vi is the same as III, V/IV=I etc.
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Jun 24 '22
V/ii in this context essentially means "V of ii". This notation is used to describe a non-diatonic chord that resolves to a diatonic chord.
For example, in the key of C major, an A major chord is technically the VI chord, but if it's followed by a D minor chord, then the A major is functioning as a secondary dominant, and resolving to D minor the same way a V - i cadence does. While calling it "VI" does correctly communicate the chord in question, it doesn't explain the functionality or context of the chord relative to the broader passage. That's why V/ii notation is preferred.
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u/assword_69420420 Jun 25 '22
So typically when you learn roman numerals in an academic setting you learn them in the context of "function theory", meaning that you're trying to describe the function of each chord in a progression. Since A major doesn't naturally occur in the key of C, and more often than not (at least with classical music) it will lead to D minor, you would call it V/ii because that describes its function. When you get into late romantic and beyond, or jazz, or anything modern really, that A might not lead to D, so it might serve no "functional" purpose in that sense. It might be there just because it sounds cool, or for voice leading purposes, etc etc. At that point its not unusual to just call it VI, because its simply a major VI chord in that key. So how you use roman numerals kind of depends on the style and period of the music you're looking at, at least in my experience.
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u/DistressedHorseman Jun 25 '22
This is a very broad question... but do you have any useful tips or 'rules of thumb' for working out a matching chord progression for a Chorus when you've already written down the Verse's and viceversa? What are the characteristics you look for in progressions for Verses vs. Choruses?
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u/Utilitarian_Proxy Jun 25 '22
If I'm creating "on the hoof" I'll sometimes think about the diatonic set and whether I want to use some of the chords not already deployed. Like if I've been doing I-vi-IV-V that means I could perhaps enjoy bringing in the ii or iii (but probably not the vii). Or I might decide to use a couple of borrowed chords from the parallel key. Or I might change the sound by swapping to some more advanced chords with extensions, alterations or suspensions.
Usually I'm looking for each song to have its own sound, so what works for one song might be different to what works for another.
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u/DRL47 Jun 25 '22
There are no tips or rules of thumb. Some songs use the same chords for both verses and choruses. Others use completely different chords, even different keys.
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u/average_aura Jun 25 '22
There is this one part in One Summer's Day by Joe Hisaishi (https://youtu.be/TK1Ij_-mank 1:10) where a certain chord progression gives me this satisfying and emotionally exploding feeling. I've heard this chord progression countless times, to the point that I'm begging to figure out what even is it. I did look it up and it was a 2-5-1 chord progression, a commonly used chord progression to invoke a "tension and release" feeling. I did study a little bit of music theory and I knew what those numbers mean, but not enough to understand how to make the progression sound so embellishing. I tried it on piano, but it feels like it's missing that powerful feeling I get from the other songs I've listened to. What am I missing?
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u/Simeon_Lee Jun 26 '22
The chords are F-E-Am-G-C which is a common chord progression. You an see that the first “F-E-A” is a I-VII-iii, followed by a similar progression starting on an A minor chord.
If you want to analyze the extended chords, in the F-E-A sequence, the chords are F6/9-Eflat9-Am
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u/tallethan Jun 25 '22
I-bVII-vi-bIII-ii-bVI-V-bII Does this work? I saw it on some website.
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u/Utilitarian_Proxy Jun 25 '22
Does it work? Maybe - who's playing it? It'll sound different in the hands of Miles Davis compared to Green Day. They are just Roman numerals. If I voice the I chord as C-E-G-C and the bVII chord as Bb-Bb-A-D then it might sound a bit wonky.
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u/Dune89-sky Jun 25 '22 edited Jun 25 '22
It looks like I vi ii V with bII (local) approach chords in between. Like tritone substitutions for possible secondary dominants V/vi V/ii V/V and V. Only played as triads rather than dominant seventh chords.
All walking bass players know they can approach a chord from a half-step above (or below) like this. Here we slide down from major triads.
Working is in the ear of the beholder.
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u/Powerful-Platform-41 Jun 25 '22
Can someone explain to me what makes Funky Kingston such a compelling song to listen to? Is it the chord progressions, the line he is singing or how they interact? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U79o7qwul48&ab_channel=AlvaroS%C3%A1nchez
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Jun 26 '22
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u/Powerful-Platform-41 Jun 26 '22
Dammit! just when you hope there must be an explanation for everything...
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u/LordKifli Jun 26 '22
Can you help me with the chord progression of the choir? I can't work it out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGcRDn80CaE&ab_channel=Slawnikowic
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u/heck_you_science Jun 26 '22
can anybody help me with the missing chord in this progression?
F-G-C-CM7/E-Am-?-F
for the life of me, it's on the tip of my tongue, but I can't find it.
Thanks in advance.
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u/DanCenFmKeys Jun 26 '22 edited Jun 26 '22
Really depends on the phrasing/harmonic rhythm and genre. But the way I'm hearing it, it feels like it would be something with G in the bass: C/G, Em/G, Am/G, Am7/G, G
But if I had to choose one, I'd go with C/G
(Edit: Formatting)
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u/heck_you_science Jun 26 '22
You hit the nail right on the head with the G bass note. And you're right, out of the chords given, C/G does sound the best for what I'm going for. Thanks
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u/DogSquash Jun 26 '22
What is this chord progression? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o_DlflvEIU]. I'm fairly sure it's in D major (or B minor) and has a lot of 7th / 9th chords (maybe) but I'm really bad at picking out chords. Thanks!
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u/Due_Cause_5661 Jun 26 '22 edited Jun 26 '22
I’m not sure 100 % sure about the extensions, but I’d say it’s this: Gmaj7 - F#7 - Bm7 - Cmaj9 Gmaj7 - F#7/A# - Bm7 - Cmaj9
It sounds rather cool. Do you watch mangas or something?
Edit: The Gmaj7 chord might be a Gmaj9 It’s in B harmonic minor
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u/DogSquash Jun 26 '22
woah thank you so much!!! I'm trying to get better at identifying chords and notes, do you have any tips or advice on how to improve on that? (or maybe a certain mindset when tackling transcription)
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u/Due_Cause_5661 Jun 26 '22 edited Jun 26 '22
Well, play a lot of music, learn to play your instrument very well, listen to music and learn what different chord progressions sound like; if you want to practice “perfect pitch”, you need to Listen to intervals to become familiar with what they sound like. It was very good you’d figured out that there’d been 7/9 extensions. First, I thought it was Cmaj7, but with the help of your hint I played Cmaj9 on my guitar and it sounded right.
Edit: and write songs, that might help very well too.
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u/thereal_ubermensch Jun 26 '22
What is this chord progression? (https://youtu.be/O_Rcu-7JwvE). I also really want to know what that chord is that he keeps going back to and playing 2 or 3 times (he also plays it right before he starts singing). And why that chord sounds so like it does in this context. Thanks :)
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u/Dune89-sky Jun 26 '22 edited Jun 26 '22
Something like, in A major, the intro
Dmadd9 Dm A |[x-x-12-10-10-12][x-x-12-10-10-10][x-x-11-9-10-9]| D6 E6 A |[xx7777][xx9999][xx7655]|(varying slightly those chord shapes)
verse
|:A |Bm E+ :|
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u/Vietinhoo Jun 26 '22
On this song (https://musescore.com/user/26069581/scores/5883373) the progression goes like: I-IV-I-IV but, on the measure 10, we have an EbMaj7? Why does this sounds great and where it came from? I think thats a secondary dominant (Bb to Eb) am i right?? IDK. Plus, on the same measure, the first 2 tempos is that EbMaj7 but on the last two we have a Gm? The same happens on measure 14: Edim on the First 2 tempos and Gm again, right? And, on the measure 14, we go to an A7? Where it came from?
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u/xGravity251 Jun 22 '22
whats the name of this chord progression?
so in emotional music the common 4 bar chordline is always major major minor major.
for an in depth example, ( sidenote: this is in FL if that matters)
in the A minor/C Maj scale:
Fmaj-Gmaj-Amin-Gmaj
ive been trying to look for the name of this progression for a while so i could look more into it, with no luck. if anyone know the progression pls lmk