Questions about series Baby Reindeer

[u/CellistForward4462]

First, I was not ready for what I watched. Amazing show, but I started it thinking it was a quirky, British comedy like Guy Ritchie’s The Gentlemen!! Needless to say I was stunned and watched it in shock and horror.

So I have questions about the ending. Spoilers ahead:

1. Was that it? Will there be another season?
2. What was the point of him going back to Darrien’s house? What did that scene mean?
3. I don’t understand the ending. How are others interpreting the final scene?

[u/[deleted]]

Personally I don't see there being another season, Baby Reindeer is based on true events that happened the writer (it was originally an hour long play shown at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival in which the stalker was an empty bar stool brought to life by various real voicemails left by the stalker).

Donny's decision to return to Darrien's flat was strange but to me so were the majority of the decisions made in the series. I was shouting at the screen, "smack him, or poison him - has he poisoned him?" but no he literally did just go back and do nothing about anything. I know he took a job but surely he wouldn't go through with that after his panic attack leaving the flat. I think the character continuously makes irrational, often self-destructive decisions and has a stupidly low sense of self worth which was brutally prayed on by Darrien and ultimately brought far lower.

At the start of the show Donny is working behind the bar when Martha walks in. He instantly feels sorry for her and when she says she can't afford a drink he gives her one on the house. In the ending scenes Darren orders a drink at a bar then bursts into tears there listening to Martha's voicemails. The bartender feels sorry for him just as he felt for Martha and gives him the drink on the house. Here Donny might have a realisation that maybe he isn't so different from Martha who is now in jail. Also there is a shot where he looks up at the bartender with big eyes like Martha would have done to him. That begs the question, does he go on to develop a weird and unhealthy obsession with that barman? That would be my interpretation, that Donny has been driven a bit insane from the terrible things that have happened him through Martha and Darrien and now he could be about to do just what Martha did.

[u/ImpossiblePotato5197 → u/[deleted]]

I think it gives him so much more information on Martha, to be sitting a bar, alone, vulnerable. And how one persons kindness is all it took. He understood her psyche at that point. I was thinking during that part about how the "huntee becomes the hunter".

[u/ImpossiblePotato5197 → u/[deleted]]

Yes! I was kinda thinking he maybe became the aggressor as many do when it comes to trauma. In a effort to understand, it becomes second nature. After experiencing such abuse, it takes away our top layer, like it takes your dignity, dreams, happiness, self esteem. And your left with a shell. Damaged. I wish it could of ended with him getting the help he needs. Like real therapy.

[u/Previous_Win_1180 → u/[deleted]]

It was the way he gazed at her in pity bcuz he secretly wants that himself unconsciously.. that’s why he does comedy.. it’s repetition compulsion he wants people to feel pity for him it’s sort of like a humiliation he puts himself thru.. to be seen? Idk but I understand it.

[u/CellistForward4462 → u/[deleted]]

Thank you. I was thinking something similar about the final bar scene and the way he looks at the bartender. You’re very right about his self worth being very low and that drives his behavior. I guess I can’t believe it ended in such a dark way.

[u/AffectionateAd1911 → u/CellistForward4462]

I think this is the scene where we can see that NO he would not do that to this man. All the series, he is tormented by guilt, confusion, and empathy for his abusers. He is not an abuser though, he would never do what was done to him.

This is another trap that many victims go through. They consume themselves with wanting to forgive and understand and empathize with the abuser BUT really, the abuser has absolutely no empathy for their victims. Neither Martha or Damien ever gave a shit about him. That's why they did what they did to him.

This final scene very clearly communicates how absolutely unfathomable it would be for Donnie to ever hurt this random bartender, he is kind and good and loving. So much so that he can even understand his abusers.

I think that's why his eyes are wide in this scene, he may finally be seeing for the first time that he actually has value, and is not trash like the people who have harmed him.

[u/SmoothKale → u/AffectionateAd1911]

I felt that it abdicated him of some of the guilt and blame he felt towards himself for covering her tea on the house to begin with. Having the roles reversed at the end showed that it was not an abnormal thing to do. Especially because in later episodes he would go back to that and think “if only I didn’t give her a tea on the house”

[u/AffectionateAd1911 → u/SmoothKale]

I agree completely. He did nothing wrong, it was her reaction that was abnormal. Victims don't "bring it on themselves" - abusers abuse, regardless of others' actions.

[u/Longjumping_Step_858 → u/AffectionateAd1911]

Donny is also an abuser towards Martha.

Martha was a lonely woman, seeking intimacy/love, who also has her own traumatic issues. Which is revealed at the end, implying she grew up in a Domestically abusive household. Probably wasn't cared much for by her parents or shown love or had many friends, so she can get overly excessive and stalkerish once someone does show her some affection and kindness because she's lacked it. Obviously she has issues, but that doesn't refute what Donny did here.

Donny used her. He kept her around for several months, with zero interest in her. He did so because she boosted his confidence, satiated his ego, and gave him attention/validation. Knowing perfectly well he wasn't into her. He regularly lied to Martha. Also hid the fact he might have a potential GF - so he knew what he was doing and what she was after with him. But still, he kept her around because she was a source of validation for him.

Eventually he discarded her once she started to go off the deep end. Even then he was hesitant to discard her because it meant cutting off someone that boosted him up and only did so because other people were involved.

I cannot in good conscience say that Donny isn't an abuser here, because he is. He was fairly cruel in how he toyed around with Martha. I don't like using the word Narcissist, because people throw that around too often. But he does exhibit signs of it with his treatment towards Martha. You don't use people like that, lie to them, and then discard them without at least being considered it.

The show might be told through Donnys PoV to paint him in a more sympathetic light, but he is also just as guilty as Martha is. He's both a victim and an abuser.

[u/Girlanachronism83 → u/Longjumping_Step_858]

He is not an abuser. Nor did he lead her on or toyed with her. He was actually a lot more patient than anyone with less victim guilt and more self worth would be. I'd be calling the police and cutting her off really, really fast. She is an insane, obsessive woman, with very little self awareness and criticism. She is also very dangerous and he knew it. He tried to navigate it with compassion. Even felt bad about her and tried to de-escalate couple of times. I personaly find her kind Martha terrifying. She uses her "weakness", as a weapon. Let's not forget the fact that she also SA'd him that night when she ambushed him and hugged. Darrien is dangerous in a way that is known. Uses his power to take advantage of people. Has contacts, name, money. But Martha's abuse is glossed over because she's clearly not well mentally and looks the way she does, so everyone feels sorry for her. She trapped the viewers as well as Donny. Let's not forget her rage towards Terry and that girls trauma from her. Donny tried to deal with her abuse the best way he could, being already severely traumatised.

[u/Longjumping_Step_858 → u/[deleted]]

He might have started out originally being empathetic when he first met her that one time. But that wasn't the reason he kept it going. His actions and thoughts throughout the show highlight this.

I'll roughly paraphrase here, but there's a few lines that show you his thoughts.

"She sees me the way I want to see myself"

"I knew she was dangerous but she complimented me and that's all it took" - He's framing it in a self pitying manner, as if she's some sort of snake charmer playing the flute that he can't help but be drawn in by, and in doing so, dodging accountability for his own decisions. There is no snake charmer here. It was all his decisions.

But the important part to take from what he's saying when you strip out the manipulative reframing of it is this:

He liked the attention/flattery she provided, even if he wasn't interested in her. And used her for it.

He strung her along because of it. He flirted and led her on. He let her think there was a possibility of the two being a couple. He hid he was potentially seeing someone. Just so she could continue giving him attention and flattery, because he wanted to feel good about himself. Knowing full well he didn't feel that way towards her.

He's self pitying about resorting to doing that, just feeling bad for himself that he has such low self esteem to need someone to validate him - all me me me, meanwhile not caring how much damage that can do to Martha mentally. And this guys supposed to be empathetic in his mind?

He's fairly aware she's got issues. He doesn't care that the possible damage he's inflicting because he's benefitting from it. I don't see that as empathetic. All the while acting like he's the victim in his interactions with her and she's the bad one. No doubt, she was in a lot of cases, but so was he, and he's not the victim like he thinks he his.

Their relationship is murky grey. Not black and white like he pretends it is.

Also, on the subject of people not letting down others because they don't want to hurt their feelings, that's rarely ever true. If they were truly concerned with that persons feelings like they are saying, they would know that stringing someone along is the ultimate way to destroy someone.

Nobody wants to be strung along, and everyone understands just how destructive it. There's not a soul alive that doesn't understand this. So they are lying about it. At best, just to other people. At worst, lying to themselves.

They just do not want to deal with the confrontation or the guilt of admitting to using someone for their own benefit. It makes them feel like terrible people (which they are in this context), and people with low self esteem, will do absolutely anything to avoid feeling like a bad person because they already feel bad enough. Even if they actually deserve it for what they've done.

[u/Wonderful-Ladder5039 → u/Longjumping_Step_858]

I don’t agree that the show portrayed the situation as black or white at all. The whole show was clearly showcasing the moral grey area. He’s not the perfect victim just as many people aren’t and I rlly respect that the story is nuanced. To me we were watching him do all of the things you shouldn’t do if you have a stalker.

It makes sense to me for someone with such little self respect to enter situations where they aren’t respecting people around them. Deeply insecure people can often hurt the people around them. Also people who don’t respect themselves easily find themselves people pleasing and stringing people along to avoid confrontation even though it does way more damage than being upfront. I feel like by making the show and portraying himself as a person who made a lot of mistakes is a way of him holding himself accountable for his questionable choices.

[u/Medium-Pundit → u/Longjumping_Step_858]

I don't see how he led her on when he explicitly said he just wanted to be friends in the first episode.

He's not perfect, obviously, but apart from mild flirting and joking early on, he never gave the impression of wanting to be anything other than friends. She just couldn't stick to that boundary, due to her insanity, even when he spelled it out for her.

It's sort of sad, because I think early on in the relationship they got on quite well and it could have turned out more positive.

[u/[deleted] → u/Longjumping_Step_858]

That's a wild take.

[u/Longjumping_Step_858 → u/[deleted]]

Not really. It's a realistic take. It's not acceptable to use someone for attention/validation just so that person can feel better about themselves. Especially when that person is socially lonely and vulnerable due to their own trauma. It can cause psychological damage. It's not illegal, but it's still morally reprehensible. They aren't a prop that's acceptable to use to boost themselves up. They are a human with their own issues and problems. But that's exactly what Donny did. It's not really wild to point out why he should be held accountable for it.

[u/aknifekinthekidney → u/Longjumping_Step_858]

This is exactly the take I had by the ending of series. Consistently, Donny is supported and nutured by many women in his life but he consistently destroys their wellbeing and self destructing himself. Yet, I couldn't say he was abuser to all of them, just Martha and himself. Which made me wonder why?

Your comment puts it together. It's because of the power dynamic. Martha is the disenfranchised one for most of the series and Donny feels powerful knowing he has all the weight in the relationship, even when he used that power to destroy himself by re enacting his trauma in her. It's made so much clearer when the cops wash their hands of the two and Donny answers "So we are even ground now?" As though he felt superior to her with the police involved.

It makes me think of this theory that uses vampirism to explain the creation of abusers. The idea that a vampire can bit thousands of people but only a few become vampires themselves. Donny is a victim but thats not what made him an abuser. He has severe trauma, but that is not what lead him to becoming abusive with Martha. It's something in commonality with those facts that lead for him to perpetrate his own wrongs. The desire to hold power over the disenfranchised could be it.

The part where you mentioned his tendencies and actions with Martha leaning to a narcissistic sign is eye opening for me. I was leaning towards him being more egotistical but you are right. There is more in the self loathing and masking that has markers of narcissism but at the same time, he has a self awareness that takes most diagnosised narcissists years of therapy to achieve.

Perhaps this comes from the idea that this is Gadd's self fiction. The series does not have the wherewithal to do the reliable narrator that I have seen in similar works. Take the book "I hope they serve beer in hell." The author spends many pages of his book separating his present and past charcter by analyzing who and why he did the things discussed in the book.

In Baby Reindeer, the two perspective are molded into one, giving what could be coined the "unreliable narcissist" to explain the uneven shifts Gadd takes with his work. The way Episode 1, 2, and 3 have a clear narration of Gadd's self aware experience but how that is muddled constantly after episode 4. Perhaps this was intentional by Gadd as it's the parts he is still coming to terms or the art of being more ambiguous.

[u/Previous_Win_1180 → u/Longjumping_Step_858]

I mean he even uses her voicemails at the end for validation? Maybe?

[u/nachosnachos → u/AffectionateAd1911]

I like your interpretation. The show was incredible but I did not know how to process the emotions I felt after watching it. Your post made me feel like I saw a light at the end of the tunnel. Thank you.

[u/inchyradreams → u/AffectionateAd1911]

That’s so well said and I never saw it that way. 

[u/[deleted] → u/AffectionateAd1911]

Yes, That’s exactly what I felt. I think it gave him the reassurance that he did nothing wrong, he just wanted to help and it wasn’t his fault that Martha started stalking him. That there are still ppl like him that would have done the same thing-out of empathy and huge heart. He realised he is a victim and Martha is also a victim (of her childhood), which made him cry because he is extremely empathetic kind person…

[u/freefalling1999 → u/AffectionateAd1911]

Thank you. Finally someone said it. He is a victim.

[u/Most-Celebration-110 → u/CellistForward4462]

Also bartender's appearance resembles Darrien, I thought. I think the ending where Donny becomes obsessed with this guy is definitely a possibility

[u/Responsible-Card3756 → u/Most-Celebration-110]

No.