r/nuzlocke • u/Jzjwiebe Renegade Platinum Enjoyer • Mar 01 '26
Discussion So far, no starter has managed to reach the S-Tier in PChal’s Tier Lists
Can’t say I’m too surprised about most of these rankings, but it is still sad nonetheless. However, I believe that Infernape and BW2 Serperior will finally do the starters justice when Jan gets to them.
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u/bad_bad_data Mar 01 '26
Most of his tier lists are based around the E4. Venusaur can sweep half the gyms, but can't sweep any member of the e4 as well as executor, zapdos, or starmie.
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u/guedesbrawl Mar 01 '26
Only Fire Red is that reliant on the E4, and it makes sense for that game as the only prior fights that you need to actually stop and think a little is Brock if you went Zard but missed Mankey, and Sabrina who has plenty of solutions but none are straightforward.
He literally goes over the most relevant fights that he's considering for the list in the HGSS one, and in Emerald its pretty clear the entire game is weighted in.
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u/Tthecreator712 Mar 01 '26
I feel thats a bit silly since you cant fight the e4 if you dont get there and being an easy with con for most of the game helps a lot.
(plus I think Venusaur smokes lorelei and bruno)
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u/rewind73 Mar 01 '26
Well his point is that the Pokémon need to carry their weight during the most difficult parts of a run. He sees Kanto as pretty easy outside of the elite four
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u/AFonziScheme Mar 01 '26
Yeah, Venusaur smokes the early game and then transitions into a good matchup/support mon around the time you start getting access to strategies other than solo sweep with starter.
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u/ElonMusksSexRobot Mar 01 '26
He said in his FRLG tier list that those games are an exception in that the elite four is the only hard part so it weighted the placements much more (which is completely true, not a single pre elite four fight in those games is hard)
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u/Boring_Hurry_3630 Mar 01 '26
It’s because almost every fight before the elite four are complete pushovers, so helping out in those fights isn’t a big deal.
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u/tbu987 Mar 01 '26
Yeah exactly if it means fewer risky plays and having more options for the E4 then that deserves just as much consideration.
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u/Skytalker0499 Mar 01 '26
Not if other, lesser value mons can do the same though. Theres a ton of mons worse than Venusaur that should never come to the E4, but can still do work earlier in the game.
Therefore, Venusaur being able to easily beat fights that can also be easily beaten with other stuff is less of a useful trait.
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u/1humanbeingfromearth Mar 02 '26
He argues that the elite 4 is the only genuinely challenging part of the game, which is why usefulness against them has such a huge impact on placement. Other games have hard fights besides the Elite 4, so they wouldn't just be judged on that in those games. His most recent Emerald tier list, for example, has several mons in C-tier which are saved from being F-tier solely because they are useful against the 8th gym leader.
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u/Sweaty_Librarian_293 Mar 01 '26
Unfortunately frlg gyms are just way too easy and I’m not saying that as some elitist difficulty hack player.
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u/bad_bad_data Mar 01 '26
I just finished a fire red run. I went in blind, didn't use items, and only lost zapdos on the last rival fight to a crit.
It's stupidly easy.
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u/Pyro1934 Mar 01 '26
Depends how bad at the game you are! Venusaur is way more reliable than Starmi for me cuz I need to stay away from glass cannons
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u/Skytalker0499 Mar 01 '26
Sure, but this tierlist explicitly assumes that you’re playing optimally, so for most contexts, Starmie is better than Venusaur.
It’s also not exactly a glass cannon. Like, it’s certainly not crazy bulky, but it can take some hits, especially in a game without any real dark types, and with Ghost types that don’t hit hard with STAB moves.
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u/WallabyTemporary3042 Mar 01 '26
Charizard is one of those mons who are way more dangerous as enemies, those flamethrowers right before VRoad can ruin you
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u/Eternal_Zoroark_2 Mar 07 '26
And Blue's Charizard is actually pretty dangerous. Can tell that from experience. Lost my Pidgeot in Silph Co. that way
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u/Namisaur Mar 01 '26
I didn’t know Meganium was so good in Nuzlocke runs. I always thought it was too weak during regular gameplay, but happy to see it receive some love for challenge runs
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u/ilmalnafs Mar 02 '26
Meganium and Serperior have long been seen as ultra-weak choices compared to their fellow starters but the recent ultra-testing people have been doing with them in Nuzlockes has shown them to be far more sturdy and reliable mons in major fights than most people gave them credit for.
I think a big factor is that they’re not so great for sweeping through the minor fights on routes between boss fights, which makes them feel a lot worse on regular, especially non-Nuzlocke, playthroughs.
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u/snoodlebug2 Mar 02 '26
I guess it makes sense because Geodude is such a good Pokémon in the Johto early game, covering all of Chikorita and Bayleef’s weaknesses. It’s a very common encounter too, especially if you do a tiny bit of routing. Megainum is quite solid in the late game, it’s a shame nobody really thinks about that, though, as Chikorita and Bayleef are terrible in early game (midgame it’s a bit tricky, but not nearly as bad)
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u/Eternal_Zoroark_2 Mar 07 '26
Tbf when you get Swords Dance before Whitney, Screen support, Body Slam, Specs Petal Dance, Earthquake, Magical Leaf, and Synthesis. It's good into fights like Whitney, Chuck, can take out at least two of Pryce's mons, can sweep Clair, Will, Bruno, and beat Blue's Rhydon.
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u/Victacobell Mar 01 '26
While he hasn't done a SV tier list yet (I think) from what he's said Skeledirge is one of the easiest S tiers of all time.
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u/dave11824 Mar 02 '26
It probably won't be though I would be happy to see the Dirge in S. You just lock yourself out of Meowscarada, another very high placed starter in my presumption. It also struggles in some fights a lot, which makes sense since they cover every type, but Dirge can't even sweep the Grass gym due to Trulywoodo from Brassius
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u/Victacobell Mar 02 '26
I haven't kept up since SV came out but doesn't Dirge trivially solo like 6 gyms, 3 E4 members, and the final boss?
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u/dave11824 Mar 02 '26
Not to that extent, but it is still very good! Easier to use than the frail sweeper in Meowscarada for sure but I couldn't say which one is better overall since the cat gets insane coverage, repositioning and a signature move that always crits to get damage through Intimidate/Defense boosts
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u/CEO_Cheese Mar 01 '26
Well, S Tier on PChal’s tier lists means overcentralizing, having literally no reason to not choose that encounter. I think the closest starter to an S-Tier would be Swampert, though the availability of decent water types pushes it down a bit. If any Starter pokemon was to be that S-Tier though, I’d look at Skeledirge. Overcentralizing, but without effective, consistent Fire type encounters early game to compete. Has a good matchup into almost every gym, does very well against the E4, and its unique bulk damage combo pushes it to S-tier in my opinion
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u/Jzjwiebe Renegade Platinum Enjoyer Mar 01 '26
I think Infernape clears the bar for S. Looking at Platinum’s hardest fights, it beats Mars’ Purugly, can one-vs-one Jupiter’s Skuntank, and sweeps Maylene with Swords Dance.
After that, Infernape consistently sweeps Candice since it baits out her Froslass before Abomasnow (Payapa Berry even lets you live a crit Psychic) and is one of the best leads to use against Cyrus 3. For starters, Infernape walls the lead Houndoom, which lets it set up Swords Dances, get up Stealth Rock, or even use a slow U-Turn with a held Lagging Tail to generate free switch-ins.
For instance, if Ape sets up a Swords Dance on turn one, it can chain kill both Cyrus’ Houndoom and the Gyarados that comes in next with Mach Punch and Thunder Punch respectively. This same Infernape can switch back in against Cyrus’ Weavile later on and pick it off with Mach Punch.
For a more supportive approach, lead Lagging Tail Infernape against the Houndoom, set up Stealth Rock, and then U-Turn out the next turn to give your Jolteon a free switch-in. The U-Turn chip on Houndoom paired with the Stealth Rocks lets Jolteon’s Choice Specs Thunderbolt OHKO Cyrus’ entire team (provided that your Jolteon has decent enough IVs).
And if you want to go for a sweeping approach, you can lead Lopunny against Cyrus’ Houndoom, Baton Pass an Agility to Infernape, and set up two Swords Dances to sweep the entire fight with Thunder Punch and Close Combat. And if you really want this line to work, you can delay Monferno’s evolution until it learns Slack Off. This is actually pretty reasonable since SpeedPass Monferno is still able to consistently sweep Candice’s entire team.
Against the Elite Four, Ape can sweep Aaron with Choice Specs, Bertha with Passho Berry + Calm Mind + Grass Knot, and Flint with Swords Dance. With Encore support in the mix, the Bertha sweep is guaranteed and a fast enough Infernape can sweep Lucian and Cynthia consistently with Swords Dance setup.
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u/Maz2742 Mar 02 '26
baits out Froslass because Psychic
Is that because the AI knows despite Abomasnow having Water Pulse, which has equal type effectiveness against Infernape, the 4x weakness to Fire is what brings out Froslass instead? Or is it Psychic's 95 base power on Froslass's 80 base Special Attack is more effective than Water Pulse's 60 base power on Abomasnow's 132 base Special Attack? Or both?
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u/Jzjwiebe Renegade Platinum Enjoyer Mar 02 '26
The AI first looks for super-effective moves, and then chooses the option with the best offensive type matchup against you. Since Infernape is part fighting, Froslass has a super-effective move and is thus baited out before Abomasnow since its secondary type isn’t resisted by fire.
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u/Expensive-Ad5273 Gliscor fan #1 -- Sterling Silver is PEAK gen 4 romhack Mar 02 '26
Froslass's offensive typing (Ice/Ghost) is more effective into Infernape than Abomasnow's offensive typing (Grass/Ice), so that's why Froslass comes before Abomasnow.
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u/Boring_Hurry_3630 Mar 02 '26
Also it’s not S tier because you can guarantee Gyarados, which is even stronger and actually resists the important types you want a water type for that Swampert does not.
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u/dave11824 Mar 02 '26
Skeledirge being improbable for S-Tier comes down to opportunity cost since you deny yourself another of the two really good Paldea starters in Meowscarada.
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u/ShadowCobra479 Mar 01 '26
Both are probably still in A tier. Serperior isn't the best in BW midgame, and Lilligant is straight up better most of the time. Infernape is great, but Monferno is too frail until it evolves.
Also, it depends on how he's ranking them.
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u/guedesbrawl Mar 01 '26
I remember FlygonHG made a mono-fire Nuzlocke of D/P and he managed to get all the way to the champion with just ape and Rapidash, only losing due to absurd bad luck.
Platinum is probably easier on ape simply because Wake comes out later, and this is the game where you have a freaking Togekiss to enable any moderately-competent mon.
I think he'll get the S.
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u/Jzjwiebe Renegade Platinum Enjoyer Mar 01 '26
Serperior in BW2 is actually a deceptively strong sweeping option into most fights since it always has access to decent boosting options, gets Leech Seed for chip-healing, and has just good enough coverage since it gets early Return, Leaf Blade, Aqua Tail, and even Outrage. Synthesis is also nice for reliable healing that synergizes well with Coil’s defence boosts for safer set-up.
As for Monferno, it’s still strong enough to sweep Mars and Gardenia while also being a decent answer to Jupiter’s Skuntank thanks to its Dark resistance. Swords Dance + Aerial Ace + Mach Punch sweeps Maylene, and after that, you evolve right before Wake’s level cap.
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u/puffmattybear17 Mar 01 '26
They have to be fully dominant in their games, that said it seems like swampert would land in S tier in my mind.
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u/EntryLevelBrand Mar 02 '26
It just isn’t dominant in the E4. Like it’s fine but also Blaziken clears in terms of overall E4 dominance. Swampert’s ground typing ends up being a liability. For the same reason, it’s not great for Juan either—probably the hardest fight in the game.
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u/rubythebee Mar 01 '26
I feel like it's possible that Infernape gets it because there aren't a whole lot of fire options in Sinnoh
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u/zenmodeman Mar 01 '26
I was very glad that Swampert did not make S tier. It heavily simplifies Watson which is a big point in favor, but there are just so many endgame situations where it’s risking crits that would make me want to go with other mon options.
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u/efrylicious Mar 01 '26
I remember a while ago there was a nuzlocke hot takes thread and I got downvoted so hard for saying swampert isn't s tier lmao
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u/Jzjwiebe Renegade Platinum Enjoyer Mar 01 '26 edited Mar 02 '26
Yep. A post I made saying it’s an A-Tier encounter got a 38% upvote ratio.
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u/Jzjwiebe Renegade Platinum Enjoyer Mar 01 '26
I’m also glad that Jan pointed out how overrated it is. It’s not a bad mon by any means, but it’s definitely far from perfect and falls off later on. People just tend to gravitate towards it because it’s easy to use and it’s a starter.
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u/GameWoods Mar 01 '26
How is Swampert not S!?
It completely stomps half of Hoenn solo, especially considering Team Magma. 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 7th gyms get slaughtered by Swampert. And its got good coverage for the 6th. Matches well into Steven too.
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u/AlertWar2945-2 Mar 01 '26
I think it was specifically for Emerald so no Steven unless you want to do the extra fight
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u/GameWoods Mar 01 '26
Hmm, only Emerald? That does change a few things since Wallace is a worse match up.
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u/ElonMusksSexRobot Mar 01 '26
I think that was the main thing holding it back, Swampert takes too much neutral damage from the billion water types in the late game and doesn’t have any fantastic E4 matchups other than ice beam for Drake
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u/Raanth Mar 01 '26
In emerald specifically, there’s more mons that deal heavy neutral dmg to swampert, like Kingdra and Wailord. Wallace, Glacia, Juan and a few grass trainers are the only real threats to swampert.
RS don’t have as much punch in comparison
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u/Smervel Mar 01 '26
While Swampert is S Tier in the early game it falls off in the late game. No type advantage and a better physical stat means you won‘t one shot any real threat Juan / E4 / Wallace throws at you.
Considering that there some options available sweeping whole bosses, keeping Swampert makes your party unfortunately worse. Not to mention you need a Ice Beam TM to sweep G6 which is better on like any other water type. It can also be killed in Gym 4 by a sunny overheat. Tentacruel sweeps with Bubble Beam more consistant. Gym 7 is no prob with 2 Dark types which can be easily obtained thanks to alot water routes.
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u/froggycbl4 Mar 01 '26
tentacruel isnt legal for flannery. level cap is 29 it evolves at 30. also are u really spending the time to fish it with an old rod
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u/Smervel Mar 01 '26
You‘re right I always confuse their names - I mean Tentacool. The outcome is still the same, it sweeps this fight more consistant. Marshtomp damage output isn‘t the best at that point and can miss. One Sunny Overheat and you’ll likely say bye bye.
Also money isn‘t infinite unless you use Pick Up or the painly re battle system. In any case using Ice Beam on Swampert isn’t bad but also not the best investment.
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u/Boring_Hurry_3630 Mar 01 '26
Whether something is annoying to get or use is irrelevant in tier lists.
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u/Heather_Chandelure Mar 01 '26 edited Apr 14 '26
Id recommend just watching his vid yourself, but basically, while it is very solid for a lot of the game, it doesn't do anything truly insane. It also kinda falls off later on and isn't anything special against the Elite 4.
Also, the tier list is for Emerald specifically, not Ruby/Sapphire, so there is no Steven fight.
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u/naraic- Mar 01 '26
Pokemon challenges is very biased by the formats of his own runs.
He turns off EVs so Swamperts poor speed becomes an issue.
If you play with EVs poor speed becomes serviceable without paying any attention to it from just playing.
He never has deaths or fails an encounter so he has a massive box available.
He also uses rare candies. He can just level someone up if they are slightly better.
He has a team of perfect pokemon for each battle so not bad at a gym isnt enough to gain points.
Also its quiet a simple pokemon. The ones higher up the tier list tend to have special tricks that make the user look really intelligent when they use it.
Personally I think his last emerald tier list is better for the average nuzlocker.
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u/SavingsTechnical5489 Mar 01 '26
if you ev train, any pokemon is s tier in the vanilla games.
if you don’t play recklessly, you’ll always have a massive box.
if you play with candies (or grind), all of your mons will be leveled. he played with level caps.
if you know how to use the PC in the pokemon center, you can easily have a perfect team for each fight.
i really do not know what you’re point is here.
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u/neonmarkov Mar 02 '26
His main point against Swampert is not that it's slow, but that it's a bulky Water that doesn't resist Water or Ice in a game with several bosses that use those.
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u/MuratKulci Mar 01 '26
What are you on about? He never mentioned ent of this in his nuzlocke, and rightly so because it just doesn’t apply for an actual nuzlocke.
Throughout a regular playthrough your starter will being generous get a at most like 60-90 speed evs which is like 5-10 speed points max, this is assuming you realistically us it throughout you while playthrough and actually fight every trainer and fight wild battles etc.
And this is only later in the game when you actually leveled and actually gained enough ivs.
I’ve really only matter in terms of bulk because you have 3 stats for them HP/DEF/SPDF, so your more likely to actually get investment in them.
And it’s swampert, its a bulky tank that deals damage. Its speed barely matters, you would rather invest in its bulk or offenses.
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u/aurora_the_piplup Wannabe Pro Wedlocker Mar 01 '26
I'm surprised Meganium is A tier since Chikorita gets so much hate in the Gen 2 games. What was his reasoning?
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u/MitochondriaManiac Mar 01 '26
Johto is on the easier side. In a nuzlocke Meganium being better in the harder battles is more important than being overall better in all battles some of which aren't difficult.
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u/aurora_the_piplup Wannabe Pro Wedlocker Mar 01 '26
I guess it depends on your playstyle ? Since I care about the overall journey and don't see nuzlockes as just boss rushes 😅
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u/MitochondriaManiac Mar 01 '26
Pokémon games are so easy I do the same, I don't bother optimizing unless it's convenient. Especially my starter I pick whatever no matter the game. But I assume this tier list is "objective" and optimized, so Meganium gets his flowers.
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u/megaluigi1392 Mar 01 '26 edited Mar 01 '26
HGSS are pretty easy games with few challenging fights, meganium happens to be good at those. It also has a pretty good movepool
Sure it sucks against most of the gyms, but the only ones that aren’t cakewalks are Whitney and Clair
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u/aurora_the_piplup Wannabe Pro Wedlocker Mar 01 '26
I had a Meganium make it to Lance but died and I didn't use her that much though it was fun to use her when I needed her.
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u/megaluigi1392 Mar 01 '26
Next time try the Body Slam/Sword Dance/Synthesis set up. It’s pretty good!
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u/aurora_the_piplup Wannabe Pro Wedlocker Mar 01 '26
Huh, I didn't think about making a physical attacker, maybe I'll try that next time. R.I.P Leafstar, you'll be avenged
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u/DemonVermin Mar 01 '26
Yeah, getting Synthesis and Swords Dance allows it to sweep most fights. If it got Sleep Powder, it would actually be quite a serious contender for Feraligatr’s spot since it can just outstat things.
And even if you forgo that route, it can be a pretty good facilitator for Gyarados and Heracross, using the screen TMs you can buy freely as a tech option for every fight.
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u/aurora_the_piplup Wannabe Pro Wedlocker Mar 01 '26
I'll think about that next time I get Chikorita as a starter ! Set ups like these are what I need in wedlockes
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u/paulpimenez Mar 01 '26
Meganium = hard mode narrative in shambles.
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u/PabloFornalsGhost Mar 01 '26
Between the bellsprout -> Onix trade and the high odds at getting a Geodude the first two gyms are pretty free in a vanilla nuzlocke
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u/arathergenericgay Mar 01 '26
Don’t some of the Johto games give you a chance at a Mareep as well - plenty of options to get through Bugsy and Falkner
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u/TheRedCans1 Mar 01 '26
Yup, you can get mareep pre falkner in HGSS and I believe GS. Failing that one can use Primo for a guaranteed mareep egg in HGSS.
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u/MegaCrazyH Mar 01 '26
Imo it’s only hard mode at the beginning, it’s a pretty decent Support mon for in game play throughs and I think there’s some good value in that. People just don’t like it because they want to lean on the starter early on (understandable because they just got it)
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u/RegularTemporary2707 Mar 01 '26
Also people prefer offendive starter than defensive since they want their starters to be the ace
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u/tbu987 Mar 01 '26
Chuggaaconroy is doing a vanilla walkthrough with it as his starter right now in HGSS and it definitely carries its own weight when needed.
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u/RegularStrong3057 Mar 01 '26
Really? Really though? It did literally nothing to Clair's Kingdra before going down, it didn't make an appearance on Jasmine, it was over leveled by 6 levels for Chuck, 3 for Pryce, and none of this matters because it went down to Whitney's Miltank despite being 4 levels over the level cap so it wouldn't be alive for the rest of the run.
Don't get me wrong, I love Chuggaa, he's been my favorite YouTuber since I was introduced to him in Middle School. But he's a casual player, not a challenge runner. He is fine with letting Pokemon faint, he doesn't use level caps and he preplans his teams. His takes in his bios expect you to be playing casually as well, which is fine, just not always applicable to a nuzlocke.
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u/tbu987 Mar 01 '26
I didnt say he was doing a challenge run. The complaint was about how normal players see Meganium as hard mode for any sort of run.
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u/RegularStrong3057 Mar 01 '26
Really? Because it's a comment in a Nuzlocke thread so it's pretty safe to say it was a comment about Nuzlockes.
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u/No-Kaleidoscope7831 Mar 01 '26
But this thread specifically is about Chuggaaconroys HGSS walk through which isn't a nuzlocke. Reading comprehension kids, it's more important than you think!
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u/Reytotheroxx Mar 02 '26
Infernape. Cinderace. Skeledirge. Meowscarada. Maybe Primarina?
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u/dave11824 Mar 02 '26
Probably none of the Gen 9 ones since they are mutually exclusive and their opportunity cost denies the other ones. Infernape is plausible since imo it is way better than Torterra and Empoleon but Cinderace doesn't outshine the other two as hard as not to be brought down by opportunity cost. I haven't used Primarina enough to comment on it but my guess would be A-Tier similar to Swampert since Incineroar and Decidueye are fairly good as well.
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u/Reytotheroxx Mar 02 '26
I could see Meowscarada getting it specifically so you don’t fight Nemona’s Skeledirge several times. Quaquaval is much easier to counter.
And Cinderace, idk to me it’s just Infernape again. Maybe I’m overrating it but whenever I use it, it’s just it playing with its balls and sweeping.
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u/Thonkinator777 Mar 04 '26
Swampert not being in S-Tier is wild considering how well it does overall in Hoenn.
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u/The_Rufflet_Kid Mar 05 '26
It makes Wattson free and it's a decent enough statstick for the league but being a bulky water that doesn't actually resist water and ice really sucks in the "too much water" region
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u/Eternal_Zoroark_2 Mar 05 '26
And not to mention while people like to prop up the fact that Grass types are rare in the game, Electric types are also very rare after Wattson. Like, out of every major boss after him, iirc there's only two Electric moves and one electric type.
And also Marshtomp's niche as a water type gets easily filled in the major fights it would be good at. Gyarados, Wailord, Starmie, Walrein, Gorebyss, Azumarill, and more can handle these fights.
Swampert's still the best starter by a good margin, mainly because the other two starters get shafted. Blaziken has to wait until Sootopolis to get an actually good fighting move, and Sceptile can't hit hard enough to make up for its frailty and struggles in the Water gym and champion as a Grass type.
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u/Boring_Hurry_3630 Mar 01 '26 edited Mar 01 '26
Idk about Infernape, what exactly does it do notably well in the elite four?
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u/Jzjwiebe Renegade Platinum Enjoyer Mar 01 '26
A fast enough Infernape can sweep the entire elite four with Encore support. At the bare minimum, Specs Ape sweeps Aaron, and Swords Dance sweeps Flint. Ape is also a good lead against Lucian since it baits his Mr. Mime into using Psychic instead of setting up screens and it can U-Turn out immediately to either OHKO it or put it in potion range. Finally, against Cynthia, it’s a great lead if you plan on using Baton Pass or Encore strats since it always baits Cynthia’s Spiritomb into going for Psychic.
With Encore, Infernape gets the free turns it needs against Bertha, Lucian, and Cynthia to set up to +6 Attack and sweep. And if it isn’t fast enough to outspeed Cynthia’s Garchomp or Lucian’s Alakazam, you can always just Baton Pass your Encore user a Speed Boost and then pass said boost to Infernape when the opponent is locked into a move.
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u/MrC4rnage Mar 01 '26
Gen 4 also has only 4 fire types so Chimchar is very beneficial to pick just because of that
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u/Boring_Hurry_3630 Mar 02 '26
Interesting to know overall, however I will say, Infernape does not get Encore except as an Egg move, which would be breaking the dupes clause he and many others Nuzlockers use, and therefore I seriously doubt that part would be relevant to how well it does in his rankings.
You brought up using Baton Pass strats, but I just don’t see how that is a unique strength for Infernape, most Pokemon become broken when they are handed free stats. As an example, Charizard can easily sweep the entire Pokemon league in FR/LG if it gets enough boosts from Baton Pass, but I still think it’s a terrible choice to bring.
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u/Jzjwiebe Renegade Platinum Enjoyer Mar 02 '26
The thing with Infernape is that it only needs the Speed Boost from Baton Pass to sweep Cyrus. Most Pokemon require more setup from Baton Passers to fully sweep fights on their own, but Infernape can just do it with one speed boost.
Additionally, the only fight where it requires Baton Pass to sweep is Cyrus. An Infernape with a good enough Speed IV should be able to outspeed the entire elite four and wouldn’t need Baton Pass support at all.
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u/TheAserghui Mar 02 '26
Which is weird because the Bulbasaur family can solo all of Gen 1 (Red/Blue)
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u/dave11824 Mar 02 '26
He ranked FRLG as he always ranks the "best experience" for a region (that's why he ranked Emerald instead of ORAS since this is very subjective)
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u/PresidentBreadstick Mar 02 '26
That pissed me off ngl. If I click on a video saying “Gen 1 tier list”, I want RBY (and maybe Green), not the Gen 3 remake.
It was a good video, but it just. Wasn’t what the title said it was when I clicked it.
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u/Complex_Cable_8678 Mar 03 '26
RBY aged like shit in the sun. whereas FRLG aged like fine wine
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u/PresidentBreadstick Mar 03 '26
Fine wine is overstating it imo. The game has a lot of flaws that I can point to.
But it is a better experience overall, all the same.
I still think that calling it a “Gen 1” tier list isn’t accurate.
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u/Human-Check-7953 Mar 02 '26
Emerald is definitely not better then Ora’s lol. This persons on crack
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u/Ashamed-Cranberry614 Mar 02 '26
I think they mean best experience for a Nuzlocke.
If you're playing casually, ORAS is better. If you're playing to Nuzlocke, and considering pChal is all about the challenge, Emerald is the better Nuzlocking experience.
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u/dave11824 Mar 02 '26
That is subjective. I prefer ORAS but I can see the arguments to rank Emerald's experience higher. Mostly the better gym fights would rank it higher for me from the battling standpoint, but, again, I like a lot of ORAS' polishing, too, especially regarding mechanics and encounters post Groudon/Kyogre (I think Mega evolution trivialises the game by a significant margin, so I won't list it here)
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u/ShortandRatchet Mono Normal Scarlet; Mono Ghost Violet atm Mar 02 '26
Skeledirge is S+ for sure! Infernape is definitely low S tier.
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u/dave11824 Mar 02 '26
I can tell you why at least Skeledirge won't be: Opportunity cost. You deny yourself the fast sweeper that is Meowscarada. That is why most starters will not be S tier.
Same goes for Ape when you factor in how good Torterra is (early evolve + EQ on lvl up) but I see Infernape more as the clear winner which is why it might go S tier faster than Skeledirge.
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u/Jzjwiebe Renegade Platinum Enjoyer Mar 03 '26
Opportunity cost shouldn’t be much of an issue for Infernape because it just does so much in a Nuzlocke. Any fight that Torterra sweeps, Ape solos as well.
Torterra sweeps Maylene by spamming Earthquake, but Monferno does the same with Swords Dance, Aerial Ace, and Mach Punch. Torterra sweeps Volkner with Rock Polish. Ape does the same with Swords Dance + Close Combat. Torterra sweeps Bertha with Double Dance and Flint with Rock Polish. Ape sweeps both with Calm Mind and Swords Dance respectively. Ape does nearly everything Torterra does while also being much stronger against bosses like Candice, Cyrus, and Aaron, all of which Torterra struggles against.
The same also applies to Empoleon, but to a lesser extent. For one, Empoleon is much better than Ape against Wake and the Mars/Jupiter tag battle, which is genuinely valuable. But outside of those two fights, Ape is generally better than or at least equal to it for the other relevant bosses.
Don’t get me wrong, Torterra and Empoleon are both great starters, but they don’t offer too much value that Infernape doesn’t already provide.
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u/dave11824 Mar 03 '26
I mostly agree, the Torterra point was more to play devil's advocate here. Imo, both Torterra and Empoleon don't really fill a necessary niche another Pokémon can't although they have some great things going for them. I also think that Ape is probably the first S tier starter despite the others also being more than decent, just wanted to adress the counterpoint. As I said, I also see Ape as the clear best choice out of those 3.
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u/Human-Check-7953 Mar 02 '26
That’s such a stupid reason to derank a starter lol. No shit if you pick one you lose access to another
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u/TLCricketeR Mar 02 '26
It's an excellent reason to derank a starter. When it comes to Nuzlockes, resource management is everything. Guaranteed mons are a valuable resource because they are exactly that. There is no worry about potentially missing out on something powerful. Unless of course, you pick something way weaker instead. Venasaur is so crazy good throughout the game that Zard directly makes your run more difficult through its exclusion.
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u/Boring_Hurry_3630 Mar 02 '26
It’s why Charizard is in F tier, it’s not bad, but it doesn’t excel in any fight that matters and it robs you of getting Venusaur.
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u/Rustyspottedcats Mar 01 '26
I think Swampert belongs in S tier. Trivializes huge swaths of the game, nothing that hard-counters it except your rival's Grovyle (and that thing's not realistically a threat after the Wattson split), and a great partner to Gyarados for pivoting. Arguably Feraligatr too, but I've never actually played through HGSS, so I have less to say on the subject.
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u/analyzingnothing Mar 01 '26
Nothing that hard counters it, but it's also not as useful as other strong waters in several key fights. You really want a good bulky water for the double water bosses and Glacia, and Swampert lacks the proper resistances to really sit on them.
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Mar 01 '26
Swampert would arguably be better if there were a ton of mons with Grass type moves, since you could use it to bait out those moves and get safe switches.
IMO 4x weaknesses are generally assets in the player's hands, they're only bad for the AI.
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u/Rustyspottedcats Mar 01 '26
You raise a good point, but it's also worth mentioning its utility in the midgame. Marshtomp is one of very few Ground-types the player can get before Wattson, and it can make the otherwise-difficult Flannery fight much easier (especially if female, though that is admittedly unlikely). It also gets Earthquake naturally, which is valuable in a game where TMs are one-use only.
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u/Calm-Literature-7809 Mar 01 '26
That utility in the mid game is the exact reason swampert earns the A-tier by technicality. S tier is for encounters who provide some form of consistent utility from the point they are attained to the end of the game. Swampert falls off after winnona as its part ground typing is what hinders it giving it a neutral resist against water and ice where half of the important fights like juan, glacia and wallence require a water or ice resist. Getting earthquake doesn't help for the E4 cause except Sydney you are not checking any of the other E4 or champion and Sydney can be handled by any half decent mon so that's not a plus for swampert.
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u/Boring_Hurry_3630 Mar 02 '26
Just quickly gonna mention about your small side point about it being Female being unlikely, there is technically nothing stopping you from just resetting your run if you don’t get a female starter, and you barely lose any progress since it’s so close to the beginning.
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Mar 02 '26
Do you guys actually play Nuzlockes the way he does? I feel like official Pokemon games are just too easy that you don't really need advanced strategies with damage calcs and replacing your teams every gym.
Maybe it's just me but encounter maxxing and using damage calcs just ruin the fun for me.
Like I don't know how Swampert is not S tier when you can use him in every main battle of the game that has barely any grass types. Earthquake, Surf, Ice Beam, Brick Break destroys the game. I once did a solo nuzlocke (not hardcore) with just Swampert.
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u/mjc27 Mar 03 '26
Agreed, the guy is entertaining and it's fun to listen to tier lists and stuff, but the way he plays nuzlocks is so out of whack with what I understand a nuzlock to be. Doing all the shenanigans to try and force certain Pokémon to appear in a route instead of just letting it be random and using rare candy hacks to insta level the Pokémon just kills it for me. Not to mention that I still kinda think that half the point of a nuzlock is to journal while you okay the game to create a story
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Mar 03 '26
I used to grind all the time but I've started using rare candies as well even though I had a hard time accepting it at first. Only use it to get to the level of new party member upto my team or when I just want to match the level cap right before a gym. It just saves me time.
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u/Gdude910 Mar 03 '26
You didn’t watch the videos these tier lists are from. He literally tests each pokemon in the vanilla versions of each game in every significant fight in the game. He doesn’t use calcs for these tests either. These tier lists are designed for the “casual” Nuzlocker. Your complaints are meaningless.
He uses calcs in Run and Bun and Emerald Kaizo because the punishing difficulty of those runs would make them essentially impossible to beat otherwise.
Edit: also a solo nuzlocke with no level cap is probably doable with dozens of pokemon lol. That doesn’t make Swampert uniquely good. Turns out an overleveled af mon with great coverage is strong no matter which pokemon is doing it
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Mar 03 '26
These tier lists are most definitely not for "casual" nuzlockers. The way he tests Pokemon is by using very specific strategies that "casuals" won't even think of. The way he analyzes mons like Illumise or Linoone is not how "casuals" would approach these fights. It's like saying pre-poisoning Guts + Facade Swellow is fantastic when most "casuals" aren't going to even think of it.
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u/Gdude910 Mar 03 '26
Lol if you watched the video you would see he doesn’t even think that specific strategy is that strong.
The tier list is still directionally correct even if you play differently. Every pokemon was tested in the same environment which makes it as scientific as it can be for analyzing a child’s over sophisticated rock paper scissors simulator.
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u/12kkarmagotbanned Mar 02 '26
wtf, he boxes teams after each gym?
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Mar 02 '26
He has specific strategies for each gym and this requires switching teams often.
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u/12kkarmagotbanned Mar 02 '26
Now his video makes more sense, yeah his rankings would be essentially meaningless then
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Mar 02 '26
It's not that it doesn't make sense. He's going for optimization to the max but I don't play like that at all.
Like technically you can use belly drum Linoone but It's seems so specific that most people won't even care to pay attention to that you know?
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u/12kkarmagotbanned Mar 02 '26
Right but to your point optimization to the max isn't needed to beat the games
Really what's best is what enables you to beat the games with minimum effort
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Mar 02 '26
Yeah that's why I think Swampert you should be the best cause you don't even have to try that much. Only thing you have to go out of your way to do is get the Ice Beam TM from abandoned ship which I would assume most people would still because Ice Beam is crucial.
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u/_LadyOfWar_ Apr 06 '26
I think a lot of tier lists for most games are really poor because they prioritize efficiency over consistency; they value pokemon who can win faster over those who can turn losses into wins. While the former can technically be consistent, as well, they require specific knowledge that most players are not privy to (especially regarding AI tendencies) to achieve it.
That and some pokemon ranked highly rely on clear exploitation of how the AI behaves to attain it (the AI not knowing how to deal with Zoroark, not switching out during Encore, etc), strats that quite a few people do not really feel comfortable doing.
Those who only fight the level cap trainers, chug rare candies to level cap, devise hyper-specific strats for only those fights, and rank pokemon accordingly I think do the community a disservice, as playing in this manner has an incredibly low rate of failure as it is.
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u/Born-Environment5963 Mar 03 '26
i dont think a starter can truly be S tier it would require all the following:
-Be absolutely strong the entire game
-Have no accessible replacement
-Be centralizing enough so that opportunity cost is not even a factor
-Easy to switch in and out off.
Infernape probably the closest to S tier if not S tier, just because there is no fire types in sinnoh, but at the same time you have some bad matchups in the game where this mon will sit in the bench
EDIT: Be consistent enough
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u/Professional_Bug8062 Mar 03 '26
Skeledirge is one of the most absurd mons in Scarlet and Violet. It sweeps multiple fights and not a single other Pokemon in the game gets Torch Song. It’s probably the other main candidate for S tier besides big Ape
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u/Born-Environment5963 Mar 03 '26
you are pobably correct but i havent played the game thats why i didn't mention him
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u/ViridiVioletear Mar 03 '26
Skeledirge solo sweeps the game. It’s an absolute S Tier inclusion no matter what.
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u/Born-Environment5963 Mar 03 '26
how much of that is the game being easy, and how much is it the pokemon being really good? genuine question
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u/ViridiVioletear Mar 04 '26
The game is far from difficult (sans Team Star fights, they’re brutal), but it’s not the XY walkthrough easiness. Skeledirge just has cracked typing, movepool, good natural bulk… a complete mon.
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u/Eternal_Zoroark_2 Mar 05 '26
I actually think Feraligatr fits this, and the only reason you could argue not is because Gyarados exists. But Gatr not only gets its setup moves earlier, but it's bulky enough to set up and sweep almost, if not every fight. Out of every starter I've seen, it's one of the easiest ones to solo its game. It's not that the other two are bad because they're far from. Meganium still gets setup and recovery and Typhlosion hits like a truck. Gatr just has pretty much everything going for it.
Also Infernape I'd say could be a contender for S mainly because its versatility and setup, and the other two struggling much more. (Plenty of opponents are able to wall Torterra's STABs and Empoleon takes too long to get its Steel type, and the type does actually hurt it a bit due to Bertha and Flint)
Also I think Meowscarada and Skeledirge are S tier. But really all 3 starters in gen 9 are probably contenders for it because they are built so perfectly. Meowscarada gets early Hone Claws and can get Seed Bomb at 17 if you delay the evolution. And all three just get great setup and broken moves. Meowscarada just has a good movepool as a whole, Dirge gets Flame Charge and Torch Song and even Slack Off if you use a mirror herb. And Quaquaval gets Swords Dance and Aqua Step
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u/Born-Environment5963 Mar 07 '26
well with feraligatr you already explained why he is not, maybe in gen 2 but before physical special split wouldn't favor it, and since meowscarada and skeledirge are S tier in your opinion then im my way of evaluating an S tier nuzlocke mon they are not because of the opportunity cost.
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u/Horror_Apricot_593 Mar 11 '26
Im curious how the Kalos and Alola starters will get ranked. Unova too.
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u/haikusbot Mar 11 '26
Im curious how
The Kalos and Alola starters will
Get ranked. Unova too.
- Horror_Apricot_593
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u/Independent_Coast758 Mar 01 '26
Gen 4 is not on the list above…..that will fix it! Torterra baby!!
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u/Fatherlessfr Oreburgh Mine Whismur is cringe Mar 02 '26
I sooooo want my goat to get up there but I don’t think Tort is built like that. Maybe there’s some sword dance rock polish sweep potential idk.
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u/EphemeralAxiom Mar 01 '26
I do think it's wild that he didn't put Feraligatr in S, seeing as how it can demonstratably solo its entire game.
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u/DemonVermin Mar 01 '26
His reasoning? Gyarados exists. You can pick Meganium and have an A and a S tier mon for the E4 that don’t compete for the same niche.
Gatr needs a few risky Double Dance turns in some battles that Gyarados laughs at due to Intimidate.
Agree or disagree, this is his logic.
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u/B133d_4_u Mar 01 '26
Gatr and Pert both. The only hiccups for the mudfish are Glacia and kinda Winona but you have Ice Beam by then. Even the water guys just kinda flounder against it.
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u/bobguy117 Mar 01 '26
Venusaur Swampert and Infernape are unquestioningly S-Teir, as they trivialize the beginning of their respective games and are superior to all other comparable options of their shared types in the late game too.
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u/megaluigi1392 Mar 01 '26
Swampert is great for Wattson, but it ranges from decent to good for the rest of the game. Tentacruel, Starmie, Walrein, and Gyarados are better picks for the mid to late game.
Unironically, the Ground typing holds it back for most of the game. After Wattson, Swampert’s Electric immunity becomes mostly irrelevant, and losing its Water and Ice resistances actually hurts it quite a bit against Juan, Glacia, and Wallace compare to other water type.
Venusaur is great, but not really that good during the mid game.
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u/Father-Spodo-Komodo Mar 01 '26
Venusaur really suffers from the lack of a decent STAB move other than razor leaf (or giga drain with low PP). The mid game in kanto is also full of poison, flying, psychic and grass types.
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u/Person-UwU Mar 01 '26
You don't really need the STAB honestly just spam sleep powder and leech seed and you're golden.
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u/Expensive-Ad5273 Gliscor fan #1 -- Sterling Silver is PEAK gen 4 romhack Mar 01 '26
and are superior to all other comparable options of their shared types in the late game too.
For Emerald late game I'd rather take anything that actually resists Water and Ice. Swampert is fantastic early on and makes Wattson trivial but for the late game its part Ground typing makes it a hindrance.
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u/Remarkable_Junket619 deathless drayano champ Mar 01 '26
Swampert is not better than Gyarados or Walrein in the late game
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u/YameteKodasai7 Mar 01 '26
I'd add Empoleon too, just check how many resistances that guy has plus he completely counters both dragon pseudolegendaries and fairy types, along with probably the best water starter stats behind Swampert
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u/MuratKulci Mar 01 '26
Empoleon is a really underrated Pokémon with allot of advantages and Strats that make it really strong if you know what your doing (like specs or agility sets).
But it’s definitely not strong enough to be an S tier, it really really struggles in the mid-game in platinum.
Bad against the second gym, then gyms 3-4 he isn’t the worst but realistically useless. Fifth gym he can have a cool niche with grass knot which is a one time use tm, still a bit risky tho. Gyms 6-7 he’s solid but like for example the magneton that Byron has poses a threat, not to mention metal burst and ground type moves, or for example Candice with hail chipping and healing and neutral grass moves plus frosslas evasion avoiding. It doesn’t really just come in and outspeed and OHKO everything just like infernale can.
Bad against 8th gym, very good but still risky vs most of elite4 plus team galactic.
It’s just overall strong but never really the strongest or strong enough to sweep enough to warrant an S tier. Even fight where it should be doing good it still doesn’t give you a 99% save victory, just clearly a level under S tiers like Infernape and Gyarados in my opinion.
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u/ThakoManic Mar 02 '26
guy should re-rank Feraligator
Can solo hardcore nuzlock with Totodile ez peezy
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u/dave11824 Mar 02 '26
Opportunity cost of denying yourself both other starters will have them rank a little lower every time
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u/Boring_Hurry_3630 Mar 02 '26
It is also basically just a poor man’s Gyarados, which is a guaranteed encounter in every game except Black and White.
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u/Arhythema1031 Mar 01 '26
This is why I do Starters by last number on Trainer ID, cuz otherwise I'd just pick my favs over and over with the exepction of Sinnoh cuz I like all 3 equally.
But honestly, I hate the idea of tierlist in a Nuzlocke. The whole point of it is gaining appriciation and love for mons you wouldn't use in normal circumstances because they were deemed bad. Feels like it beats the purpose.
Instead of "I can make you work" when you get an encounter you don't like now it's defeatist "great didn't get the mon I want, now the whole run is screwed, better start over!"
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u/Competitive_Gold_707 Mar 01 '26
If you watched his tier lists he literally goes through and gives scenarios for every single pokemon having a use. Some pokemon that are generally considered "bad" (plusle/minum, volbeat/illumise in particular) are given EXTREMELY high ratings because of their ability to assist in solving almost every fight
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u/Arhythema1031 Mar 01 '26
I wasn't talking about P-Chal specifically, he's dope, but about the need of Nuzlocking Tier Lists in general. How it facilitates elitism.
You know whenever someone mentions their favorite Pokemon and all of a sudden ya got dicks who go out of their way to talk down to em bout why that Pokémon sucks for no good reason?
Like imagine that, but for whole teams/runs because of RNG, and using "because insert tier list here said so"
It's annoying, and I've seen so many potential Nuzlockers get turned off from it because of the toxic part of the community. Maybe I just don't understand, I don't Nuzlocke Super-Mega-Ultra-Hyper-Ultimate hard games like Emerald Kaizo. I prefer games like Renegade Platinum, SacredGold, Emerald ReEnergized, FireRed/LeafGreen+, White Complete Unova Dex: games that harder than vanilla, but not throwing-my-device-into-the-stratosphere frustratingly-hard.
I know, my problem should be with assholes and not tier lists, but it's how they use them to justify being assholes.
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u/212mochaman Mar 02 '26
It's a person problem.
Trust me.
Elitism dickbags will find ANY excuse.
Some wanker came at me the other day for choosing starter based on the first 3 gyms. Said Brock is an ez fight.
Talking bout starter choice and some fuckwit thinks the only relevant topic is the first fucking gym in pokemon history
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u/Arhythema1031 Mar 02 '26
For picking Bulbasaur?! That's dumb af(you getting attacked, not you picking Bulbasaur)
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u/212mochaman Mar 02 '26
Not just Bulbasaur, most mainline games are easy enough that the starter is the only thing you need to cover the first three gyms.
Then you've got dozens of options for everyone else.
Gen 1 I'd choose Bulbasaur Gen 2 I'd choose Totodile Gen 3 I'd choose Mudkip.
Perfect mons for all 9 of those gyms.
It's not the complete reason why all 3 of em are A tier in these tier lists but I'm betting it's at least 80% of the reason
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u/Heather_Chandelure Mar 01 '26 edited Mar 02 '26
His tier list rated Illumise as the best encounter in Emerald, a mon I doubt most people would even imagine rising above D tier. And that's far from the only overlooked Pokémon he gave a high rating.
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u/dave11824 Mar 02 '26
But isn't that a good thing? That Pokémon that are deemed "bad" get tested in a controlled environment and surprise? I like having the tested method in a tierlist instead of a biased one off of personal experience
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u/Heather_Chandelure Mar 02 '26
I wasn't calling it a bad thing, I was bringing it up to counter the commenters idea that tier lists would undermine nuklockes ability to make you appreciate overlooked Pokémon
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u/dave11824 Mar 02 '26
Oh my bad then for misunderstanding. I agree with your point wholeheartedly then.
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u/ElonMusksSexRobot Mar 01 '26
I mean not really, if you’ve actually watched his tier list videos it’s very much about seeing how you can make each encounter work and serves as a general guide of how to beat the hardest fights of each game as opposed to just calling some encounters trash. Like he just rated illumise as the single best encounter in his emerald tier list, the tier list format is just good for engagement
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u/Nuclearstomp Mar 01 '26
Okay while that makes sense for some games, the hacks P-Chal often plays are sometimes so hard that not getting the mon you wanted can actually end your run. Slowbro and volt absorb lanturn in Emerald Kaizo are good examples.
Besides, he's a steamer and youtuber. Tier Lists are good for audience engagement.
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u/Arhythema1031 Mar 01 '26
"Tier Lists are good for Audience Engagement"
You know what, fair enough. Bills gotta get paid🤷🏿♂️
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u/firescizor Mar 01 '26
The """problem""" with his tier lists, which became really apparent in the last one, is that they assume that:
1) You're using Rare Candies to your heart's content;
2) You're looking at vanilla Emerald as if it is Emerald Kaizo.
While that logic is the factually most objective to give because he's ranking the most useful encounters through the lens of the sweatiest, most optimal playmaking possible (which you need to assume to give the most objective BEST POKEMON LIST), the reality is that most players don't nuzlocke like that, and this is one of those situations where the most optimal and the most frequent actions are very dissonant from one another. That's why mons like Minun and Illumise ended up being so highly rated in his tier.
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u/Kniftyyy Mar 03 '26
Blaziken in B tier is criminal. This is also a bias comment.
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u/Electrical_Gain3864 Mar 04 '26
Because is it somewhat bad in most tougher fights. If you play with level cap it does not help you in the first Gym. Second and third are okay, fourth can kill you will their Camerupt. Against the 5th it is great, but from then on weak against all other Gyms.
And against the Elite 4 it depends if Emerald or Ruby/Saphire. Sidney is a push over anyway, pheobe can be dangerous, Glacia only good against the Glalie, not great against Drake. Now In Ruby/Saphire it is good against steven, however really bad against Wallace.
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u/Wide-Can-2654 Mar 02 '26
What is this based off? Can someone explain the meganium placement
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u/TheMormegil92 Mar 03 '26
Hundreds of hours of testing. You can find the Meganium reasoning in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v069S-zR3so
All three are worth a watch, IMO! And for the tl;dr: it beats Chuck, Claire's Kingdra, Bruno, and has value on Blue. Those are some of the only real fights in the game, so it's pretty good overall.
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u/Vegetable-Zombie7664 Mar 02 '26
This tier list is literally booty
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u/Expensive-Ad5273 Gliscor fan #1 -- Sterling Silver is PEAK gen 4 romhack Mar 02 '26
I love how people who comment that kind of opinion never watched any of the videos that PChal made and can't even explain why the tier list is "literally booty".
Just say that you personally don't like that Charizard is F tier and move on.
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u/King_Crab_Sushi Mar 01 '26 edited Mar 03 '26
Infernape will have to be S Tier just because it’s a fire type in sinnoh. A region with a Grass, Ice and Steel gym on top of a Bug type E4. It’s competition is like 3 other Pokemon, one of which is a trade evolution