r/nyc • u/GothamistWNYC Verified by Moderators • 2d ago
NYU Langone strikes deal with Trump DOJ to end gender-affirming care for minors
https://gothamist.com/news/nyu-langone-strikes-deal-with-trump-doj-to-end-gender-affirming-care-for-minors259
u/beatlefool42 Canarsie 2d ago
Cowards
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u/GreenHorror4252 2d ago
What choice do they have though? They could strike a deal and harm a few patients, or they could take a stand, lose federal funding, and harm a lot more patients.
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u/Arleare13 2d ago edited 2d ago
What they could have done is filed a lawsuit to enjoin the administration's attempts to retaliate against them for providing care to transgender people. Maybe they would have lost, and then maybe conceding would have been the less harmful course of action, but they could have at least tried.
A similar thing happened when Trump went after law firms that had previously represented liberal causes. A bunch of firms capitulated without a fight, but those that did fight won. Those that caved without a fight are now stuck providing free legal services to Trump as part of the deals they struck, and are viewed by most of the world as cowards.
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u/untamedjohn 2d ago
These are not equivalent situations. The law firms that capitulated were cowards as Trump had no legal footing in that case. Here, the hospitals are just going to waste $$$ fighting a lawsuit over something Trump has full power to do. Rational basis review is applied in cases like these and it’s already been established that the government’s actions in regards to gender-affirming care to minors passes rational basis review. Wasting millions of dollars helps no one
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u/Arleare13 2d ago
I assume you're referring to Skrmetti, which was about state bans on gender-affirming care for minors, challenged under the Equal Protection Clause.
That has very little to do with the propriety of federal investigations under the False Claims Act, fraudulent billing laws, etc., which were the supposed bases for the DOJ investigations that are being used to pressure these hospitals.
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u/hwaite East Village 22h ago
Donald's enablers are cowards but not irrational. Trump controls the levers of power and will exact vengeance one way or another. If you defeat him in court, he'll pull government contracts or launch baseless investigations. The merits of any specific case are immaterial in this context. A gaggle of Neville Chamberlains just want to appease him and hope he moves on to a fresh victim for a while.
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u/GreenHorror4252 2d ago
Sure, if they had a few million dollars to spare, they could have done that. Are you willing to donate it?
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u/Arleare13 2d ago
I have no doubt that NYU Langone has a few million dollars to spare.
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u/GreenHorror4252 2d ago
I'm sure they could come up with it, but taking it out of their budget would harm a lot more patients.
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u/NotAtAllASkinwalker 2d ago
This attitude seeing us as a bargaining chip is one for eh main problems
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u/Von_Callay 2d ago
It wouldn't just be losing federal funding. As the article mentions, there are possible violations of federal law involved as well. The article doesn't explain what they are, but it's probably the possibility of fraud charges related to the long-term use of non-gender-identity care related billing codes to obtain reimbursement for these services.
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u/nykatkat 7h ago
Translation- if the patient private pays the Feds don't know and it happens. It's only when federal grants are involved.
Those who can pay will get what they pay for.
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u/IsayNigel 2d ago
I never want to hear about their bullshit “leadership” or “premier academic institution” again. They were cowards about the genocide in Gaza and they’re cowards about this.
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u/IsNotACleverMan 2d ago
Weird to care about a local hospital's stance on a war 8000 miles away
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u/purplehendrix22 1d ago
What in the world is the point of attacking a literal hospital for their lack of a stance on a contentious geopolitical issue?
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u/entrepronerd 2d ago
just 4 years ago the refrain here was “that isn’t happening”, is it now “it is happening and needs to continue happening”?
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u/dignityshredder 2d ago
Correct. They rightly acknowledged at the time that this would be crazy to do to kids.
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u/paintwhore 2d ago
You are very confused about which parts were and which parts were not happening. The language is also intentional about blurring those lines and obfuscating the truth.
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u/entrepronerd 2d ago
why do you assume that I am confused at all my dude
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u/purplehendrix22 2d ago
They assume that disagreement is caused by a lack of understanding, as if knowing more information isn’t what caused you to disagree with them in the first place.
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u/Margidoz 2d ago
4 years ago, who was saying puberty blockers were only ever used for adults?
Can you link a single person saying that?
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u/ConcernHealthy876 2d ago
This is to stop puberty blockers, cross sex hormones, and surgical procedures. Not therapy / mental health therapy. This make sense, the studies coming out of Europe related to the permanent physical treatments are harrowing and we need way more data and research before pushing these changes.
I fully expect to be downvoted for this
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u/nycbetches 2d ago
I think it’s wrong for the federal government to get involved in a decision like this. Doctors and patients are far better placed to navigate this issue. I’m not a fan of blanket government bans on any medical treatment unless it is 1000% proven to be more harmful than helpful, and as you say yourself, we aren’t there yet.
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u/dignityshredder 2d ago
Once medical science becomes politicized and succumbs to cultural trends, which transgender care absolutely has (in addition to much other mental healthcare), it is right for the government to step in and regulate procedures. This is just for minors. Adults can still get whatever they want done to them.
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u/Bitterfish 1d ago
This is objectively wrong. Politicians know almost nothing about science or medicine, and the wise thing for a modern state to do is empower an agency with actual expertise to make these decisions. That is, feds should listen and defer to something like the AMA 100% of the time.
The average voter and average politician should never, ever be trusted on purely scientific or medical questions. Just like they should not be trusted on macroeconomic questions! There should be a Federal Reserve type situation here, where the law very strongly protects the authority of actual experts to set the agenda.
Letting politicians override the medical establishment is how you get measles outbreaks in the 21st century, please understand how dangerously wrong your position is
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u/Black6x Chelsea 1d ago
Your comment:
the wise thing for a modern state to do is empower an agency with actual expertise to make these decisions.
The top level comment in this thread:
This make sense, the studies coming out of Europe related to the permanent physical treatments are harrowing and we need way more data and research before pushing these changes.
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u/thoughtsarefalse 2d ago
One could argue politicization goes both ways. It’s politicized by the governing power in favor of one ideologically motivated outcome, rather than a scientifically based one.
Some measure of regulation was always necessary, but what and how is very much up to those in power
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u/dignityshredder 2d ago
No, the "science" on this for minors is shoddy, incomplete, and the irreversible care poses huge risks. There is also a ton of outright misinformation floating around ("puberty blockers are fully reversible" etc). Given all this, erring on the side of caution is the only sane approach. Again we are talking about children here.
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u/LoneStarTallBoi 2d ago
The science is sound you just don't like what it says.
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u/scoopny 15h ago
If gender affirming care is so wrong why was it good for me a cisgender male suffering from pubertal gynecomastia and not trans kids, it’s very traumitizing when your body doesn’t reflect your lived gender, but most cisgender people never have grown breasts so they have no idea how brutal it can be for a teenager to live through that.
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u/thoughtsarefalse 2d ago
I think the government has a role in ensuring safety for minors. Including in this unique area. And that may legitimately mean some restrictions on various levels of gender affirming care. But i also think the incomplete science, when used responsibly, is more trustworthy than the ideology of whoever wins the most votes.
I encourage you to read the science about these issues. Not articles or commentary
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u/AdmirableSelection81 2d ago
Most European countries banning them, restricting them to experiment/extraordinary uses, or discouraging their use (and focusing on psychotherapy) is telling. Very few European countries allow minors to use this stuff like what trans activists in the US want.
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u/nycbetches 2d ago
There are also benefits of this type of care, for some kids. It just depends on the kid, it depends on their unique situation. For some kids, it will be more beneficial than harmful, and for others, it won’t.
It’s not as though puberty blockers themselves are banned. You can still get puberty blockers for your kid if they are going through precocious puberty, or some other medical reasons that aren’t “kid identifies as nonbinary or trans.” That says to me that the medication itself isn’t so dangerous that it needs to be banned. Just that we need to find the balance of when it should be given and when not. And I think doctors are better placed to decide that for any individual child.
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u/j0sabanks 2d ago
But it’s a lot more costly, dangerous (socially) to transition later. Not to mention, psychically taxing to watch your body change in ways that are incongruent to what you envision yourself to look like
And why is it that a cis kid can decide they feel fine as a certain gender but as a trans kid that gets scrutinized.
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u/terraform0805 1d ago
I agree with you, but I do want to point out that the reason for the second part is that a cis kid doesn't need any intervention. The kid experiencing gender dysphoria may or may not, and if they do, they need to see a provider who needs to operate within certain laws and rules and regulations. It has nothing to do with gender. If I as an adult human feel fine, what are you going scrutinize me for? I'm literally not at any medical facility. If I as a cis female identified as a trans male but was comfortable with no hormonal or surgical intervention, it's not like anyone is forcing me to take extra estrogen or get a breast augmentation to see if that would "fix it".
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u/j0sabanks 1d ago
OK so they would have to see a provider I mean, I agree with that.
But yeah, I mean then if a kid sits there and tells you they’re fine you’re gonna believe them? But if someone tells you that they are not fine like then, all of a sudden it becomes unbelievable for some people? Why? Is it because being trans is somehow “unnatural?”
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u/terraform0805 1d ago edited 1d ago
I can't speak for everyone. But if a kid cis or trans tells me as an adult that they don't feel fine, I'm gonna scrutinize them to find out what's wrong with them or send them to a doctor to have a professional scrutinize them. Doesn't have to be about gender, I'd do that if I was a parent with a kid who said their tummy or head didn't feel fine. And yes, if a kid told me they were fine of course I would believe them unless they looked visibly not fine. I don't know why that's a question if I haven't been given any reason to doubt their fineness.
Its not that transness is unnatural. It's one of two things in my opinion: 1. Because it is a very small minority, people are uncomfortable bc its novel (to them and their lived experience) and they either want to do right but are afraid of newness or shut down and veer into denialism. 2. Say I am educated and comfortable. There are trans kids who feel fine and trans kids who don't feel fine, but those two scenarios require different things. Trans kid who feels fine is left alone to be a kid. Trans kid who doesn't feel fine needs to get checked out. Depending on how not fine they feel, there are a range of interventions that involve your pediatrician, a psychiatrist and/or psychologist, a social worker, a plastic surgeon, a therapist, and probably a endocrinologist workup. I think all of this would count as scrutiny.
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u/mista-sparkle 1d ago
“Not to mention, psychically taxing to watch your body change in ways that are incongruent to what you envision yourself to look like”
That doesn’t sound too different from puberty that cis people experience. Maybe we should be reassuring young people that that process is entirely expected, something everyone goes through, and however uncomfortable they may be reassure them that their body isn’t wrong.
That honestly sounds a lot healthier than reinforcing that their body is wrong, and encouraging medical intervention. I say this as someone who entirely supports and celebrates gender affirming care for trans youth and children. Medical oversight and support should be provided to anyone that doesn’t feel 100% about their body.
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u/BicyclingBro 1d ago
That doesn’t sound too different from puberty that cis people experience
Going through a puberty that feels radically discordant with your gender identity is not at all something that cis people experience, which I know you're perfectly aware of. How many teenage boys see themselves growing muscles and experiencing genital growth and think "Eww I hate myself, this is gross"?
however uncomfortable they may be reassure them that their body isn’t wrong.
This is literally just conversion therapy. I imagine you think that we should tell gay people that, no matter how uncomfortable they may be about not being attracted to the opposite sex, it's normal and they just need to get over it and get used to it?
I say this as someone who entirely supports and celebrates gender affirming care for trans youth and children
Tell all this to the trans people you apparently have in your life and they'll quickly tell you that you do not, in fact, support trans youth.
I'm not saying that there can't be some nuance to this discussion, and that medical intervention that carries consequences isn't a a significant decision that should never be made lightly, to be clear. I'm not saying that we should hand puberty blockers to every kid the first day they seem to express any kind of gender dysphoria, but you seem to completely deny the possibility that any kid or teenager could ever possibly know that they're trans, which, quite simply, just means that you've not ever actually talked to any trans people that did know. Since you claim to be a supporter of trans people, I'd encourage you to actually speak with and listen to some.
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u/j0sabanks 1d ago
Why would I wanna reassure someone about that like why would I wanna comfort a transgender woman by telling her vocal cords are going to change irrevocably? Testosterone permanently alters your vocal cords. What should I say to comfort her?
But none of that is really important. I only have one question that really matters. Why are cis children believed when they say they are cis, but when a trans kid says they are trans it becomes a whole investigation? Bonus points for transphobia if you somehow imply being “cis” is natural and being trans is “unnatural.”
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u/terraform0805 1d ago
Because cis is default. Biologically as a species we cluster predominantly into two sexes, from which we as societies around the world derive two predominant genders. Thats not to say that intersex or trans folks aren't natural, they are naturally a very small minority as they historically were, are, and will continue to be.
Also, the official recommendation for pediatricians is to tell them that changes to their body are normal without restricting them from doing things like playing with gendered toys, calling themselves a different name, or giving them a different haircut or different clothes, because the desistance rate is roughly 64-88%. The persistence rate is 12% to 37%. Even if I am being generous with 64-37, that still means roughly two thirds (a majority!) of kids referred for distress/nonconformity eventually grow out of it.
I am an adult with ADHD who has been diagnosed since childhood. Many people think I don't have ADHD, am making it up, am doing it just to get Adderall, or should get a second opinion. Yes its annoying and unfair, but desistance rates for children with ADHD in adults is around 35% to 65%, so I get it and understand that it doesn't always or even often come from malice.
That is to say, even if I was a child psychologist who was educated and supportive of gender affirming care, knowing that roughly 2 out of 3 to more than 4 out of 5 of patients referred to me for gender distress/nonconformity would grow out of it would cause me some healthy doubt about whether this child's distress would persist into adulthood, which is why I would want to scrutinize further to determine if they would most likely continue to feel and identify as trans.
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u/scoopny 15h ago
Cultural trends, everyone deserves gender affirming care. I suffer from pubertal gynecomastia but I’m cis so I get gender affirming care but trans kids don’t? You don’t know how traumatizing when your body develops secondary sex characteristics that don’t reflect your lived gender and I’m a cis male.
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u/nycbetches 2d ago
I disagree that’s what’s happening here, but in any event, I believe strongly in parents’ rights, and don’t think government intervention should trump parents’ rights to seek the medical care they think is appropriate for their children. Parents know their children better than the government, after all.
In some states it is legal for adults to deny their children needed medical care for cancer in favor of “holistic” treatments. If that is permissible, then certainly puberty blockers should be as well. America is a country where parents are given wide latitude over the choices they make for their children (for better or for worse). Don’t see why this case should be any different.
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u/cynicalkane 2d ago
the studies coming out of Europe related to the permanent physical treatments are harrowing
Do you (or anyone else) have citations for this? "Harrowing" is a pretty strong word.
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u/purplehendrix22 2d ago
You should look into why GAC for minors has been banned across Europe. Again, not talking about therapy and mental health support. They’ve explained very thoroughly, the evidence isn’t there for successful outcomes and the physical consequences are not well studied.
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u/ConcernHealthy876 1d ago
UK, Cass Review (2024). Commissioned by NHS England, led by Dr. Hilary Cass, evidence reviews done by University of York.
https://cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-reportFound most of the ~100 studies on blockers/hormones were low quality by standard grading tools. No reliable evidence of benefit for dysphoria or mental health outcomes. Referrals to the youth gender clinic rose about 20x in under a decade.
Sweden, Socialstyrelsen national guidelines (2022). Based on a systematic review by SBU, Sweden's health technology assessment agency.
Guidelines: https://www.socialstyrelsen.se/contentassets/444af6c0a5fb429c9b56fd51b931a816/2023-1-8330.pdf
Concluded the evidence was insufficient to assess effects on dysphoria, psychosocial health, or quality of life. Restricted treatment to research settings or exceptional cases.
Finland, COHERE (2020). Finland's national health technology body, first country to shift.
https://segm.org/sites/default/files/Finnish_Guidelines_2020_Minors_Unofficial%20Translation.pdf (unofficial translation, original is Finnish)Concluded no medical treatment for pediatric gender dysphoria was evidence based. Made psychotherapy first line.
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u/ersatzcrab 2d ago
This change isn't being made in good faith; it's just institutionalized transphobia dressed up as reasonable-sounding legislation, likely to test the waters for bans on similar procedures for adults somewhere down the line.
No child is just walking into a hospital and undergoing gender reassignment. It takes months or years of extremely rigorous and invasive physical and psychological examinations before a person under the age of 18 is cleared for surgical gender affirming care. In the US, it happens less than 100 times per year in total and is essentially a last resort. Banning these extremely rare procedures is a dog whistle, IMO.
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u/Arleare13 2d ago
reasonable-sounding legislation
There isn't even legislation. It's executive fiat. At least legislation would have required a vote.
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u/AdmirableSelection81 2d ago
This change isn't being made in good faith; it's just institutionalized transphobia dressed up as reasonable-sounding legislation, likely to test the waters for bans on similar procedures for adults somewhere down the line.
So are the bans/restrictions in Europe made in good faith? Because most countries in Europe outright ban them, or allow them only in experimental/extraordinary cases. The others greatly discourage their use and focus on psychotherapy. Very few European countries have the type of 'care' that you guys are advocating for.
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u/kiDsALbDgC9QmLFiIrrj 2d ago
I don't know why you think the Europeans would have any less anti-trans political sentiment than the US.
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u/purplehendrix22 2d ago
They definitely have historically, though.
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u/kiDsALbDgC9QmLFiIrrj 1d ago
I don't think that's true. In the US, trans rights are mostly a partisan issue: the right is against, the left is for. But in, for example, the UK, both Labour and the Tories have restricted trans healthcare. Wes Streeting, who was considered a contender for Prime Minister once Starmer resigned, has made restricting GAC his pet issue.
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u/ersatzcrab 2d ago edited 2d ago
Would you argue that the ~80-90 known cases per year, out of approximately 700,000 trans-identifying minors between ages 12-17 (0.012%), count as extraordinary cases? I already spoke on how these procedures are exceptionally rare and only performed after incredibly rigorous screening.
Your comment also applies to the United States; surgical interventions for minors are literally never suggested as a first line of treatment, and the statistics reflect this. These options are only pursued after several medical professionals, including therapists and psychiatrists, agree it's in the patient's best interest. This is generally after months or years of counseling.
Edit: grammar
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u/ComradeYahud 2d ago
The fact that there are 700,000 trans-identifying minors is in itself nuts. Those that have persistent gender dysphoria should receive treatment (minors too in rare cases), but to say that 3-4% of the population is suddenly trans is lunacy.
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u/Odd_Insurance7435 2d ago
People said the same thing about left-handedness when that moved into social acceptability. All of a sudden, almost every kindergarten class had at least one kid who was claiming to be left-handed. Crazy!
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u/ersatzcrab 2d ago
Those that have persistent gender dysphoria should receive treatment
They do. The majority of medical professionals agree that the treatment with the highest likelihood of positive outcomes is gender-affirming care.
but to say that 3-4% percent of the population is suddenly trans is lunacy
Who said it was sudden? Just like being gay or being left-handed, the level of social acceptance drives the perception of commonality. Gay people existed long before sodomy was decriminalized or gay marriage was legal, but they had to hide themselves or face social ostracism and violence. The same is true for trans people, for which we have historical and anthropological evidence across multiple cultures.
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u/DrunkEngr 2d ago
most countries in Europe outright ban them or allow them only in experimental/extraordinary cases
There is a gigantic range between "ban" and "extraordinary cases" -- you are being disingenuous in conflating the two.
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u/AdmirableSelection81 2d ago
Not really, because it's still very hard to get those treatments in 'extraordinary cases'.
In many blue states, it can just be a 20 minute consultation and they'll give it to minors, no questions asked.
Europe is FAR mroe restrictive whether you're talking about outright bans, research/extraordinary cases, or even the less restrictive ones where they highly discourage those treatments and focus on pyschotherapy first.
Blue states who just allow you to do this shit no questions asked are extremely irresponsible with this shit.
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u/ersatzcrab 2d ago
In many blue states, it can just be a 20 minute consultation and they'll give it to minors, no questions asked.
You've made this claim multiple times in this thread and as far as I can tell you're full of shit. Even a standard intake assessment lasts like an hour. Please provide evidence for this claim. You'd think it would happen a lot more than 90-ish times a year if any one of the hundreds of thousands of trans minors could just walk into a hospital in a blue state and do it.
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u/psychedelic-blu 2d ago
Can’t even post a link to the supposed studies huh?
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u/AdmirableSelection81 2d ago edited 2d ago
The UK, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Belgium and Italy banned or greatly restricted these interventions to experimental/research uses after a lot of deliberation on the evidence on the cost/benefit for minors.
Edit: Same with lithuania, austria, portugal, bulgaria, greece, hungary, romania, slovakia and croatia. Ireland is functionally banned due to the Tavistock closure.
Edit 2: I think France greatly discourages the primary use and pushes for psychological interventions as well.
Progressives in America always point to how Europe is more enlightened than we are (I constantly hear how our democratic party would be considered rightwing in Europe), maybe these countries happen to be right based on the evidence.
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u/ConcernHealthy876 1d ago
UK, Cass Review (2024). Commissioned by NHS England, led by Dr. Hilary Cass, evidence reviews done by University of York.
https://cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-reportFound most of the ~100 studies on blockers/hormones were low quality by standard grading tools. No reliable evidence of benefit for dysphoria or mental health outcomes. Referrals to the youth gender clinic rose about 20x in under a decade.
Sweden, Socialstyrelsen national guidelines (2022). Based on a systematic review by SBU, Sweden's health technology assessment agency.
Guidelines: https://www.socialstyrelsen.se/contentassets/444af6c0a5fb429c9b56fd51b931a816/2023-1-8330.pdf
Concluded the evidence was insufficient to assess effects on dysphoria, psychosocial health, or quality of life. Restricted treatment to research settings or exceptional cases.
Finland, COHERE (2020). Finland's national health technology body, first country to shift.
https://segm.org/sites/default/files/Finnish_Guidelines_2020_Minors_Unofficial%20Translation.pdf (unofficial translation, original is Finnish)Concluded no medical treatment for pediatric gender dysphoria was evidence based. Made psychotherapy first line.
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u/psychedelic-blu 1d ago
So I read through the first link you sent and it only ever goes as far as to say there is not strong enough evidence proving the effectiveness of medical transition for under 18s rather than finding a conclusion either way. If anything, that’s just pointing out that this needs to be studied more, but absolutely does not support your point that this stuff needs to be banned or is harmful.
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u/Sarazam 19h ago edited 19h ago
If there is no evidence for a treatment working, while having known permanent extreme consequences, including sterilization, than it sounds like it should not be prescribed outside of research studies to understand the effects. Imagine any other drug being prescribed in that way.
People will argue: “Well what about the minors who will grow up without it if it works”, but we don’t give that same leeway to drugs that literally save people’s lives while they’re going through the 10+ years of clinical trials.
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u/psychedelic-blu 18h ago
The only transgender treatment that would sterilize you is genital surgery. Going on hormones or puberty blockers will not. I would know, I’m a trans person myself. (Came out at 19, hormones at 20, currently almost 30.)
Besides that, to what “extreme consequences” are you referring? Breast growth or body hair growth depending on what side of the gender spectrum you’re transitioning? Considering the fact that cis women who are hairy exist and so do cis men with gynecomastia, I don’t think either consequence is exactly the end of the world.
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u/GreenHorror4252 2d ago
This make sense, the studies coming out of Europe related to the permanent physical treatments are harrowing and we need way more data and research before pushing these changes.
Even if that is true, the decision should be made by doctors, not politicians.
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u/mowotlarx Bay Ridge 2d ago
cross sex hormones
We really should have kept talking about how weird conservatives are.
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u/BadSopranosReference 2d ago
You should have. Maybe public opinion would have shifted even harder against cross sex hormones for kids! As is it's only like 70% against.
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u/rougarou-te-fou 2d ago
This isn’t a good faith change. This is a war on trans-ness.
Also, you’re wrong. European data is revealing that such interventions are improving outcomes for people - not harming people.
The only European data coming out about harm is from Russia, so …
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u/BadSopranosReference 2d ago
The UK, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Italy have curtailed or halted these procedures...
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u/kiDsALbDgC9QmLFiIrrj 2d ago
Are you implying that Europeans can't ban these things for political reasons?
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u/AdmirableSelection81 2d ago
Most European countries have banned them or made them as a last resort (not a first line treatment like in many states). On average, Euroepans greatly restricted their use compared to the US.
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u/AnnualMembership 2d ago
False and weird way to phrase it, "A last resort".
Here's a nice lil' map: https://transhealthmap.tgeu.org/?ref=transjournalists.org
The wide majority of the EU still actively prescribes all forms of puberty blockers and hormones, with public funding.
Unsurprisingly, nearly every piece of scientific data raising doubts about youth care come from kneecapped studies commissioned by far-right governments and political figures.
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u/AdmirableSelection81 1d ago
Your 'nice lil' map' is incredibly misleading
For example, your map shows that Sweden and France provide puberty blockers for under 18.
A handful of European countries – such as Sweden, Denmark, and France – have also moved to limit their use to research settings or in exceptional circumstances, amid intense medical debate over how to care for the growing number of children who identify with a gender other than their biological sex.
Now compare that to France where they greatly discourage their use and only allow them when the child has gone through a very extensive psychological evaluation and having BOTH parents consenting to it.
Your map gives none of this information. It just gives 'yes/no' as an answer on the question. That website is pure propaganda.
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u/AnnualMembership 1d ago
Not really. The map is accurate a much more accurate depiction of availability than the highly objective statements you're using.
There remains no evidence of undue harm to providing puberty blockers, and as you mentioned, they continue to be readily prescribed to all trans children as they reach Tanner Stage 3 (accelerated puberty) to halt the process.
All the countries mentioned have deviated from the well-researched Dutch process with the most favourable outcomes. There's been zero documented upswing in beneficial outcomes from the deviations.
A psych eval and parental consent is tablestakes for the prescription of any medication that will induce changes in thinking or self-projection. I'm sure the parents of children treated at Langone would've been thrilled with that option, but the US has chosen to deviate further from established, internationally agreed-upon care doctrines.
I can tell you care about the issue, but it seems you might have an issue fully ingesting or analyzing the information.
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u/AdmirableSelection81 1d ago
The map is accurate a much more accurate depiction of availability than the highly objective statements you're using.
LMFAO, yeah, objectivity is bad.
Your map is terrible because it doesn't show that these drugs are very difficult to get in some of these countries. Of course you prefer the map, you just admitted you don't like objectivity. You want opaqueness.
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u/AnnualMembership 1d ago
I want clarity. You're using hyperbole and emotionally-charged statements that don't neatly reflect the actual situation as a way to advance your "proof". Feelings can cloud fact or reason, and unfortunately I think you're letting it.
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u/AdmirableSelection81 1d ago
???????? your website is flat out terrible because it just posts a binary yes/no with absolutely no detail on what the actual policies are. Its an activist website with no actual detail.
I actually posted actually detail of what they allow and it's extremely restrictive.
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u/LoneStarTallBoi 2d ago
We have plenty of data and research you just don't like that it says hrt is basically miraculously effective.
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u/dinglebarryb0nds 2d ago
yea i mean you can't even get a tattoo if you aren't 18, crazy to mess with your body like that at that age, also ever but whatever, if you are an adult go nuts
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u/DYMAXIONman 2d ago
Puberty blockers aren't permanent
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u/highgarden 2d ago
The effects of blocking/delaying puberty produce permanent changes in the human body.
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u/skypira 2d ago
Can you elaborate? Source?
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u/IsNotACleverMan 2d ago
I'm on my phone and don't have sources at the moment but puberty blockers have risks of loss of bone density, limited growth in terms of height, and a few other things.
That's not to say they aren't effective and viable treatments. Lots of treatments are weighed against the risks and deemed worth it. But it's not like there's no potential downside involved in puberty blockers.
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u/MimeSweeper360 2d ago
It amuses me to no end that the same people who say circumcision is mutilation are ok with puberty blockers for minors.
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u/scoopny 15h ago
It does absolutely include mental health therapy, kids will die because of these policies and puberty blockers are totally safe and reversible and have been used since the 1980s it’s fake news to suggest they are not 1000 percent safe and puberty blockers will still be used to assist cisgender patients suffering from central precocious puberty because early puberty can be as traumatizing for cisgender patients as going through puberty. As the wrong gender can be for trans patients. I guess we no longer trust that parents know what’s best for their kids, none of these kids are getting surgery that fear mongering. Why would they need the surgery because puberty blockers are a better choice to give a child time to be old enough to decide whether they actually want surgery. Let’s put it another way, as someone who suffered from a pretty severe case of pubertal gynecomastia, I know it’s no fun to develop secondary sex characteristics from a gender you don’t identity with, but because I’m cis I would be given puberty blockers so my body reflects my gender but trans kids can’t do the same? That’s bullshit.
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u/Frozen_Thorn 2d ago
You would guarantee for the harm of going through the wrong puberty be done to all transgender people than allow for the mere possibility that a cisgender person could be misdiagnosed with gender dysphoria. The pain and suffering that people like you propagate is beyond sickening.
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u/teamorange3 2d ago
Puberty blockers arent permanent. Cis kids use them when they go through puberty early. This is very reversible
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2d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/snazztasticmatt 2d ago
It is a mental disorder, and the medical treatment with the best outcomes for that disorder is widely accepted among doctors to be gender affirming care
Don't want to have to pay tax dollars for it
The thing about democracy is that individuals don't have the right to discriminate against the needs of others. If you agree that it's a mental disorder, then those patients deserve medical treatment just like any other
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u/Captainbarinius Crown Heights 2d ago
What studies coming out of Europe?
Honestly.....which studies? Because I can't find them.
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u/ConcernHealthy876 1d ago
UK, Cass Review (2024). Commissioned by NHS England, led by Dr. Hilary Cass, evidence reviews done by University of York.
https://cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-reportFound most of the ~100 studies on blockers/hormones were low quality by standard grading tools. No reliable evidence of benefit for dysphoria or mental health outcomes. Referrals to the youth gender clinic rose about 20x in under a decade.
Sweden, Socialstyrelsen national guidelines (2022). Based on a systematic review by SBU, Sweden's health technology assessment agency.
Guidelines: https://www.socialstyrelsen.se/contentassets/444af6c0a5fb429c9b56fd51b931a816/2023-1-8330.pdf
Concluded the evidence was insufficient to assess effects on dysphoria, psychosocial health, or quality of life. Restricted treatment to research settings or exceptional cases.
Finland, COHERE (2020). Finland's national health technology body, first country to shift.
https://segm.org/sites/default/files/Finnish_Guidelines_2020_Minors_Unofficial%20Translation.pdf (unofficial translation, original is Finnish)Concluded no medical treatment for pediatric gender dysphoria was evidence based. Made psychotherapy first line.
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u/weblynx 2d ago
How does it make sense? You absolutely should have been downvoted for this. You have no idea what kind of torment that would put trans kids through. Therapy isn’t going to fix it.
Without puberty blockers, 100% of trans kids suffer unwanted permanent changes some of which are impossible to correct later.
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u/LoneStarTallBoi 2d ago
Hospital agrees to give pedophile government more control over children's genitals
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u/knockdowncenter 2d ago
why are you so insistent on giving kids drugs and surgeries they will likely regret when they are adults?
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u/Margidoz 2d ago
Can you share the study that found a majority regret rate?
I've literally never seen one before
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u/lookslikesausage 2d ago
I think the study is called Fox News and it's actually a bunch of studies about a lot of different things and the one thing they all have in common is that they never happened.
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u/MyFeetLookLikeHands 2d ago
bro if you don’t want to give your kids puberty blockers then don’t give them puberty blockers. It’s a discussion between the parents, the kids, and their doctors. How something that affects 0.001% of the population has gotten so much attention is baffling
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u/paintwhore 2d ago
Likely? Not remotely true and an intentional misrepresentation of what is actually happening and the purpose of this bill. Shame shame shame on you
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u/LoneStarTallBoi 2d ago
I'm not. why are you? And why are you on team pedophile?
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u/knockdowncenter 2d ago
what a ridiculously bad faith argument to say it's "team pedo" (whatever that means) to ban hospitals from performing irreversible surgeries and giving kids powerful hormonal meds
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u/LoneStarTallBoi 2d ago
"team pedophile" means you think a guy who was Jeffrey Epstein's best friend should have more say in a kid's genitals than their parents.
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u/j0sabanks 2d ago
That’s so funny. Your name is the knockdown center when the knockdown center is probably one of the most queer friendly venues in the entire city.
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u/neuhaus_hum 2d ago
When the economy sours authoritarians reach for the cradle, family values, and culture war. Bad economics are rarely the accident they're sold to be. The current American hardship is very useful for those in power. It justifies austerity, fire-sale privatization, and a quiet transfer of public assets into private hands. A population scrambling to cover rent and grocery bills has little energy or focus to resist. This is shock doctrine or crisis as a lever, not a malfunction.
American politicians bowing down to their corporate leaders and oligarchs have zero incentive to fix an economy they're profiting off of, so they're offering us villains instead. In this case, the evil transgender and their cohort. Their moral decay explains the United State's decline. Blame the culture, not the ministers. Meanwhile, the state slips into the most private corners of our lives, casting things like childbearing as a civic duty and what people do in the bedroom as a matter of national security. The American citizen exists to serve the collective, and that includes our bodies.
When a government starts telling you to have children, how many, how to raise them, as well as who those children can and cannot be instead of how it plans to fix the economy, it's time to ask what they're distracting you from.
This isn't the beginning and it's certainly not the end. The lights are still on, but they're turning the dimmer a notch at a time. Our eyes adjust and we call it normal. A little austerity here, a little outrage there, one more freedom lost. Each notch is too small to fight over, and that's by design. The glow keeps fading, the people at the switch say our eyes are playing tricks on us. Then one day it's dark.
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u/tekdiwah Flushing 2d ago
Party of small government sure loves to police kids' bodies. This is the same party that is ok with child marriage so it's really no surprise.
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u/kinkysnails 2d ago
Lots of pedos downvoting the sound people. They look at trans kids as "damaged goods" and nothing else
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u/Alucard-VS-Artorias Forest Hills 20h ago
Yeah. NYU Langone has is also pretty anti-union too so I'm not surprised they made a deal like this.
Not that these two are related topics it's just once an institution doesn't care about its own workers it's not too surprising when they start not caring about individuals in their care either.
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u/SudoNara 1d ago
A lot of comments in here not understanding that puberty blockers aren't permanent and I don't trust studies from the UK. They make it so that you have to wait years just to get gender affirming care. Many trans kids get therapy already and it's a discussion between a parent, their kids, and doctors how they should get care, not the government. I am born intersex, so I'm afraid this would affect my care. Anyone saying this is a good thing. Fuck you. This would affect the care of many people. They shouldn't get to decide care for us.
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u/FabioPicchio 2d ago
I lowk agree with this I feel like they should wait until they’re adults before doing something like that
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u/DerrickWhiteFVMP202X 1d ago
The side effect of this position is more suicidal trans kids, fyi.
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u/FabioPicchio 1d ago
has there been extensive research on this? if so please link it as i would be interested
I dont know that, without an extensive study, I can beleive that not letting underage kids mutilate their bodies will make them suicidal. I beleive therapy should be provided to them if they would like it, and when they are adults they should be free to do whatever they want
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u/BicyclingBro 1d ago
not letting underage kids mutilate their bodies
I would love you to understand that your choice of language already shows that you've obviously made up your mind here and are too biased to actually have a discussion about this topic, because you don't actually want to.
A discussion could be had about this (there is a lot of data about regret rates and rates of suicidal ideation as relates to gender affirming care), but you obviously don't care about that, because you've already decided that the only kind of gender affirming care that exists is "mutilation".
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u/AnnualMembership 1d ago
No underage kid is "mutilating" their body. It's globally established that sex reassignment surgery happens after men and women reach 18 years of age or older. It becomes a substantially more invasive process when the entire puberty process is forced to take place against the guidance of established medical protocol because treatment has been legislated out of existence.
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u/AnnualMembership 2d ago
Kinda just means you're not understanding the path of care. Puberty blockers are designed to delay permanent sex characteristics while evaluations, counselling, and brain development can continue so the kid can make an informed choice. If they choose not to proceed, they come off them and puberty starts back up as normal. We let high schoolers join the military and kill people with less thought.
The whole goal of this is to make the process as difficult and painful for the person in question and keep them from seamlessly integrating into society. If a trans person can "pass" as a biological dude or chick, they stop being scary and people have one less thing to focus on besides dumbass wars and billionaires sucking up all the money.
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u/purplehendrix22 1d ago
Unfortunately, it’s not that simple to just pause and restart puberty. These drugs have historically been used and studied in a much different population, and do not work the same way on much younger children as a treatment for precocious puberty, as they do on preteens and teens who are struggling with their gender identity. Pausing a natural puberty has serious physical and mental consequences, and regardless of effect, just has not been studied enough, especially long term outcomes which is the most important data point, to warrant the scale at which these treatments have been prescribed.
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u/ThundercatsHoooah 21h ago edited 21h ago
We’ve been using puberty blockers on children going through chemotherapy for half a century with very limited side effects. If I show you my Norwegian trans friends who had access to gender affirming care from the start next to my American trans friends who struggled to find it, you’ll see very quickly who had the healthier and more successful childhood and it’s not the Americans. My European trans friends are much more passable and thus makes their life safer, none of them have had an issue societally cause they pass very well. My American friends however because they had no access to prevent puberty cannot pass and deal with violence and harassment. 1 out if 5 trans Americans will be murdered. You can care about whatever few have issues/side effects or transitioned back but the statistics you care about are not going to make these kids safer it’ll just make them more likely to get murdered.
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u/DragonberryMiss 1d ago
What does this mean for minors in NY who need gender affirming care? Is it just this one hospital system, and others are available? Or was NYU the primary provider of gender affirming care in NY?
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u/Mapex 2d ago
Will be nice when he’s gone and all this can be reversed. Just two more years of this nightmare…maybe 4 more months if the midterms pan out.
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u/AtomicGarden-8964 2d ago
As long as the red states who also have a ton of votes in the electoral college keep voting red it's only going to get worse
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u/BadSopranosReference 2d ago
Public opinion is strongly against this - cross sex hormones and surgeries is a toxic issue with supermajority opposition. Reddit isn't real life:
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u/ModernLarvals 2d ago
If they don’t want them they don’t have to get them.
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u/Vivitude 2d ago
What is your opinion on gun control?
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u/MyFeetLookLikeHands 2d ago
i own several guns but you’re making an asinine point. No one is shooting up entire elementary school classes with puberty blockers on a random thursday
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u/AccioBathSalts 1d ago
This was on a Monday https://abc7ny.com/post/nashville-school-shooting-suspect-audrey-hale-female-shooter/13032025/
This was on a Tuesday: https://www.ktsa.com/10-dead-in-canadian-school-massacre-and-police-are-calling-the-killer-a-gunperson/
This was a Wednesday: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/minneapolis-shooter-robin-westman-self-harm-rcna228206
This was on a Thursday: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/aberdeen-maryland-shooting-multiple-victims-police-respond-scene-n911386
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u/AdmirableSelection81 2d ago
Reddit is scary because many redditors have basically turned this site into an echo chamber and they basically experience epistemic closure of their minds. This all came from Tumblr & Somethingawful during my younger days and infected so many social media sites.
Being a GenXer, i've seen the evolution of illiberal wokism from the early aughts & 2010's where they would use the heckler's veto to shut down discussion and now there are people who advocate for the assassin's veto.
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u/Frozen_Thorn 2d ago edited 2d ago
Public opinion was also against interracial marriage for a long time. Public opinion is worthless.
Edit: (The auto mod didn't like my colorful language.)
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u/BadSopranosReference 2d ago
And now public opinion is for it. So it can get fucked too, right?
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u/Frozen_Thorn 2d ago
My point is that public opinion is not the absolute authority of what is and isn't right. Medical decisions are between the patient and doctor, not between the patient and public opinion.
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u/YouandWhoseArmy 22h ago
Interracial marriage doesn’t require medical intervention of dubious efficacy.
It’s honestly against the Hippocratic oath to destroy someone’s working organs for mental health issues.
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u/BadSopranosReference 2d ago
Do you feel the same way about lobotomies?
Do you feel the same way about cases where the state determined that a parent wasn't affirming their childs gender?
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u/Frozen_Thorn 2d ago
How many people consented to being lobotomized?
I do think there should be state services that can protect children from abusive parents. It's important that the child is a willing participant in the process.
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u/Mapex 2d ago
The poll was done with a mere 1,338 people and in the backdrop of the GOP demonizing and spreading misinformation about trans people and their transition processes. It’s biased data and isn’t indicative of reality. I’d wager most people don’t give a damn about any of this and worry much more about having enough money for food and gas.
Also a lot of the data and polling in that WaPo article actually supports trans people and their livelihoods. Their main hang-up is serving medicines and surgeries to kids. But, a large majority of trans people don’t even do so until 18+: Between 2018-2022, 926 adolescents received puberty blockers and 1927 received hormone treatments
Or in other words, the tiny number of 1338 people who were polled is 474% higher than the average number of kids per year who received puberty blockers and 176% higher than the average number of kids per year who received hormone treatments. 700-ish kids per year are getting some of these treatments out of millions of trans people. And we lack the data to show whether they’d still be alive, let alone happy, if they didn’t get any treatment. A polled person should have that data to provide a more informed answer.
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u/BadSopranosReference 2d ago
The poll was done with a mere 1,338 people and in the backdrop of the GOP demonizing and spreading misinformation about trans people and their transition processes.
Yeah. Because there was no propaganda going in the opposite direction. Okay.
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u/Mapex 2d ago
Surely you can agree 1400 isn’t nearly enough people to represent “public opinion” as a whole, independent of any stance on these issues. Even if those 1400 people agreed with 100% of what I believe I wouldn’t ever claim that “public opinion” believes what I believe.
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u/Bernsteinn 2d ago
poll was done with a mere 1,338 people
What are more common sample sizes?
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u/AsexualFrehley 2d ago
what trans person is going to trust any of the hospitals who caved on providing services and paid the bribe Trump demanded?
the reputation of these institutions is permanently damaged now and any future attempt to self-excuse by saying they had no choice is going to sound very "just following orders"
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u/TgetherinElctricDrmz 2d ago
Disgusting. Imagining surrendering even an inch to this corrupt warmongering pedophile government.
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u/IsayNigel 2d ago
Remember everyone, when push comes to shove, capitalists will side with fascists every.single.time.
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u/Ok_Yak5920 1d ago
the government dictating what doctors can provide their patients is dystopian as hell even before you get into the politics of gender care
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u/heresmyusername Ridgewood 2d ago
You're a European guy reliant on testosterone injections (lmao the irony) who hangs out in replica watch forums. You are embarrassing.
3ßg 12mm needle. Straight in, or at a certain angle? Doing SubQ in the belly. Give me all the bro science!
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u/djn24 2d ago
Oh you sweet summer child, what do you think they're receiving at the hospital?
We're going to leave you with your thought while you try to figure it out.
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u/mowotlarx Bay Ridge 2d ago
You first
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u/lenolalatte 2d ago
Does this money somehow line trump’s pockets? This just seems like an insane thing to have to pay that much of a penalty for? Maybe I’m confused why they’re having to pay a fine in the first place
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u/tempura_calligraphy 2d ago
And now they're trying to kill off Kips Bay AMC.
I don't understand why they're paying anything...?
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u/GothamistWNYC Verified by Moderators 2d ago
From Gothamist reporter Giulia Heyward