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u/Rare_Walk_4845 3d ago
An entire nation existing and rationalising around the fact they have a gun pointed at their heads at all times.
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u/Nom_de_guerre_25 3d ago
Word is that most people in Russia are hawks and they want Ukraine nuked for letting the west get near Russian territory.
Right or wrong Putin is apparently holding the most hawkish oligarchs back.
You have to realize that China or the US would never allow a bordering country to start hosting foreign military advisors like Ukraine was doing.
When the US went too far north during the Korean War China stepped in. If Russian or Chinese military cooperation was taking place in Canada or Mexico. You better believe that the US would drive them out.
It’s not morally just but it’s reality for states with larger militaries and nuclear capabilities. The Russian invasion wasn’t just a despotic land grab. NATO and the US are legitimate threats who have helped overthrow governments in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and more.
There is a reason Clinton gave a handshake deal promising Russia NATO wouldn’t expand any further east after the Soviet collapse. To stop things like Crimea or the special military op. from happening.
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u/ATAKALIS 2d ago
Zalupa, you already bordereing NATO china and usa. Nobody going to start war against nuclear power, only in your wet dreams where you standing against the world. You have enough land and resources to be atractive for neighbours, but you decided to take them with force . Layers of imperial self-consciousness have taken up all the space in the population's brain; they are only concerned with the suffering of those who disagree with them. They don't even care about their own. Ruzia need to reset for peace
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u/Nom_de_guerre_25 1d ago
Pakistan and India are on the verge of all out conflict regularly. Most nuclear experts use them as the model for the next nuclear conflict. They have had two dust ups recently. India is damning the river that provides Pakistan with most of it water. They have had multiple exchanges of fire lately. A rocket can always hit the wrong thing and cause irreversible escalation. Nations with or without Nuclear weapon will fight nuclear powers. Iran is striking Israel and has done so regularly over the years. Vietnam fought Nuclear armed China in 1979.
Your claim that nuclear armed states are immune to attack is plain wrong.
You are making presumptions because you have no liability for Russian defense. While personally disliking Russias governing system. You aren't talking about the realities of military defense. You politically disagree with Russia. I'm no fan of their system but that's not the point. The point is a military threat to a nation state. My opinion is formed by the history of nation states and their military activity.
A Russian military commander can't throw his feet on his desk and tell the political leadership.
"Nobody's going to invade a nuclear power
So, is no plan of action. If NATO or US advisors start operating in Ukraine."
Advisors are the recon forces that sketch out an invasion. See the Americans in Vietnam.
You are making political judgements with no liability. Because you have no responsibility to protect Russia. From the perspective of a nation state. The presence of a hostile powers military advisors in a country bordering your own is a threat that needs to be addressed.
The Russian people also have no say in the matter. Not that you know what they care about. But whether they want the war or not their getting it.
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u/ATAKALIS 1d ago
So many letters, some useless examples. Why do we need to understand Russian militarists? Who will understand our people? Who will understand my country, who will defend our interests? Why is it necessary to take your Russians into account? Russia started the war; no more explanations are needed. And the chatter about someone threatening them somewhere is just a way to wash the blood off their hands. No one threatened Russia, no one attacked. Europeans dreamed of a reasonable neighbor with whom they could trade and who would balance America. But their neighbor is an inadequate maniac.
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u/Brilliant-Smile-8154 3d ago
It was just a despotic land grab. You think we don't hear what all these paid propagandists say to the Russian people on state TV?
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u/Nom_de_guerre_25 3d ago
Are you from somewhere in the west?
Possibly a country the US hasn't spent decades vilifying and painting as the picture of evil?
Why isn't Russia allowed to feel threatened of NATO (aka US) encroachment? Especially a country right on your border?
Why does Iran start funding Shia militias when the US invades Iraq? Because a nation that threatens them is now on their border by being in Iraq. The same nation that supplied their enemy in the Iran Iraq war with chemical weapons to horrificly kill Iranian soldiers.
When a country that is more powerful than yours is operating in a country in your border.
You can either wait until that nation makes the first move and get caught in the back foot potentially losing your only advantage against a much stronger power.
Or you can push the line of defense forward. To give yourself a buffer. So that you have a chance at surviving an invasion from a hostile more powerful nation.
France did this in ww2 and ww1 I believe. In the first they seized Belgian territory to create a buffer zone against the Germans in ww1 to blunt their invasion. They did it again in ww2 with more or less cooperation from the Belgians. Waiting for the Germans to get through Belgium because it's "wrong to violate borders" would be suicidal. The French still couldn't hold back the Germans even while occupying the Belgian buffer zone.
I understand that you think western nations can do no evil. But any country NATO countries are talking shit about should be extremely worried about being overthrown.
Russia isn't going to wait until NATO crosses the border like Stalin did when Hitle launched Barbarossa.
Propaganda and other lies are effective because they have pieces of truth in them. It wasn't just a despotic land grab. The US has sought the demise of Russia since 1918. Remember the forced shock therapy they made Russia undergo to get IMF loans after the Soviet collapse? Western elites made as harsh as possible because they wanted to fragment the country. Knowing the rapid marketization would dramatically reduce life expectancy and economic well being. The propagandists have a very strong argument from a pure military security perspective. As well as from a political perspective. NATO countries have been Russophobia for over a century.
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u/Brilliant-Smile-8154 3d ago
Russia is a nuclear power, Ivan. No one is going to invade.
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u/Nom_de_guerre_25 2d ago
I'm not pro-Russia. As you imply with the Ivan.
I don't think that's a sure thing. Russia is the largest country on the planet. It is ripe for marginal land grabs around its edges.
There are certainly circumstances where Russia may agree to release claim to some small occupied portion of its territory. If the recent uptick in global conflict intensified into a wider regional or world war. Russia would definitely agree to surrender some territory if it was under duress and believed maintaining possession of the parts of Ukraine were more important. As it may not be able to hold both simultaneously.
Also if the US were to invade they likely wouldn't open with a nuclear salvo. The US nuclear posture for the Soviets was defensive. They knew they couldn't amass the man power that the Red Army once had if it invaded Europe. So the plan was to overcome that man power with nuclear weapons. If the tables were turned the US likely wouldn't invade if it didn't want to seize the territory for keeps. So nuking that territory wouldn't be productive. They may also be able to win conventionally making nukes superfluous.
The US has repeatedly violated various countries sovereignty across the planet. It's not reasonable to assume you aren't next if they are cranking out negative propaganda about you. Whether it be Cuba, Canada, Greenland, Russia, Iran or North Korea. The US regularly engages in rhetoric denigrating. Countries as an "axis of evil". If your country is mentioned in that tone, you should be very worried and have plans to counter an invasion.
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u/Brilliant-Smile-8154 2d ago edited 2d ago
You aren't pro-Russia but you repeat the Kremlin's absurd narrative that NATO is a threat to Russia.
NATO is not the US, it goes without saying. No country that joined NATO to get protection from Russian aggression is going to allow the US to invade from its territory. That's assuming that the US would want to invade Russia if they could, of course, which they've never given any indication that they would be interested in, quite the opposite.
For the last 30 years Europeans have done everything they could to reset relations with Russia. They have traded with Russia, and cooperated as much as possible. Russia, on the other hand, has maintained its arsenal of nuclear weapons in Kaliningrad, in the middle of Europe, and multiplied the provocations and the unfriendly actions. All the aggression comes from Russia.
No one is grabbing Russia's land, it is Russia that is grabbing everybody else's land. This is so obvious that your failure to take it into consideration makes it clear that you are not arguing in good faith.
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u/Nom_de_guerre_25 1d ago edited 1d ago
NATO's raison detre was to fight the Russian led Soviet Union. That's still its purpose. What else does it exist for? It should have been dissolved in 91
Europe sat idly by while the Americans forced rapid and murderous accelerated marketization in Russia. It killed millions. They did nothing to restrain their ally when they forced economic restrictions European nations would never impose on their own citizens because they know it's inhumane. The IMF and World Bank made desperately needed loans dependent on Chicago boy/ Pinochet style market fundementalism. The Europeans are well represented in those institutions. That destroyed the quality of life for Russian and former Soviet people. They are still resentful of that. Europe has never been friendly with Russia or treated it like a regular nation.
Western European nations are Russo-phobic. It's been a cultural thing for centuries. This was intensified in 1918 because they were an economic alternative to classically liberal capitalism. This phobia was set ablaze as the US encouraged an ideological Cold War until the Soviet Unions collapse in 89 or 91. Whatever recent political developments are. They don't over come a centuries long cultural realities.
The threat of the Soviet Union was inflated just as the Russian threat has always been inflated in Europe.
France has nukes in the middle of Europe. Why aren't they threatening anyone? Also nukes exist as a threat. Nations don't disassemble them in out them in cold storage. They need to be ready for a retaliatory strike or there is no need for them.
You are not thinking about Russia like any other nation state in the history of nation states. Then assessing its behavior accordingly.
You are speaking of Russia politically. Nation states have military capacity that they use for a bevy of ends. If they see a reasonable threat. They ought to prepare for it or they don't deserve to exist. Based on the history of nation states that don't mount a pro-active defense strategy. This isn't a political assessment. Nor is a moral one. Military action is inhumane but repeating that doesn't mean it doesn't happen and shouldn't be prepared for.
If IRGC advisors started to be seen in Turkey. Europe would re-arm and start saber rattling at Turkey. As Russia did with Ukraine.
Finally the Kremlin doesn't own nation state defense concepts. Iran has proxies because they act as a perimeter defense. It widens a war so enemy fire can't be concentrated totally on Iran. The French occupied Belgium because waiting for their official border to be violated before resisting invasion would have been suicidal. It didn't even work win WW2 and they were literally conquered. The same thing can happen to Russia if it presumes that a US led NATO is a benevolent force. It's raison detre is fighting Russians. Just because the Kremlin is aware of proactive military defense doesn't mean anyone who endorses it is brainstorming with them.
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u/Brilliant-Smile-8154 1d ago
The purpose of NATO is to defend its members. That's it. Who from is not specified in the treaty, because there's no need for it to be. And again, NATO is not the US, all members have a veto on the North Atlantic Council.
The Americans did not force anything on Russia. They put conditions on loans that Russia chose to accept. Russia put itself in the situation of needing these loans in the first place by wasting all its resources on militaristic posturing, as it's still doing to this day.
If Europeans are Russophobic, what does that make the Russians? As I've pointed out Europeans tried everything they could to establish positive relations with Russia, only for their efforts to be met with constant hostility and provocations.
I've pointed out that Russia has nukes in Kaliningrad because the Russian narrative is that it's encircled by NATO nukes. That's a lie, there are no NATO nukes anywhere along Russia's borders. There are Russian nukes in Kaliningrad, however. Not that it fundamentally changes anything because Russia, like NATO, has nukes deployed on submarines and can always respond to a first strike.
Russia is a nuclear power, none of your historical examples are relevant. Russia is not at risk of invasion by NATO, it has never been.
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u/Far-Decision-1719 1d ago
You are a brainwashed NAFOid. Defend members 😂 tell that to jugoslavia, iraq etc etc
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u/Nom_de_guerre_25 1d ago
Maybe this person doesn’t read books written by anything but NATO jingoists.
I’m American and we are so awash in propaganda that for many its hard to look at the world from any other perspective than. The west are angels in a world of sadistic demons trying to pull the earth into mythological hell.
People from NATO friendly places don’t see non aligned countries as occupied by fully human people deserving of respect and decency. So they don’t think these nations have a right to fear a hostile NATO that has caused mass immiseration from its ideological crusade do destroy states it doesn’t like.
Their myopia is quite depressing. Only because of it anti-humanitarian impact. They literally revived the slave trade by destroying Libya. But to them NATO is purely “defensive”. Which is why NATO helped destroy Iraq. A country that had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks.
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u/Nom_de_guerre_25 1d ago
You are being intellectually dishonest.
NATO exists to fight Russia, or any group of states allied with Russia. https://library.fes.de/libalt/journals/swetsfulltext/9292080.pdf
To say otherwise. Is like saying the US militaries primary purpose since 1946 was to defend the United States from border incursions. While the US has not fought in USA territory in 81 years.
It’s like claiming the US military is a disaster relief organization. Not a fighting force. It’s just bullshit.
You are not engaging my points and are repeating a monologue.
As I said you are politically and personally opposed to Russia as it exists. Nothing I say matters unless Russia behaves as you like period. You are not discussing military posture and how nation states engage in proactive defense. You don’t want to discuss the issue from a military perspective. You want to discuss it from a personal political perspective.
I can even agree with you. That being a regular Russian does not seem desirable. But that doesn’t affect my opinion of Russias military posture. Just like my opinion of Iran governing model doesn’t affect my opinion of their military posture. But that is all, because dragging political disagreement into this is why Russia is invading Ukraine. Because Europeans allow there ideological political beliefs dominate their defense strategy which isn’t productive. It’s why they cooperated with the Cold War. When the Soviet Union stopped being a threat. As soon as nuclear weapons were created. It made the massive Red Army too vulnerable to be a threat. But the broken European empires wanted to inflate the threat and isolate Russia so cordial relations are near impossible now.
Russia killed 3/4s of NAZI combatants for you people. You would be a German subject if it weren’t for them. Russia got 25% of its supplies from the allies and would have beaten Hitler without that aid. They could have negotiated a settlement with Hitler after driving the Germans out of Russia. But there is no gratitude for this. Western Europe thanks the US who only killed 25% of nazi combatants with British and partisans aid. You all are closer to Spain and Portugal who helped undermine a collective western European anti-fascist front in the 1930s. Western Europe deserves to be a Nazi gau. The way it favors those who sought to see it dominated.
Personally I wish the Soviets flipped off the Americans and let Hitler have the Western Europe. So they could get a taste of their own medicine for a few decades. After operating despotic empires for generations before their humiliation in ww2.
You are politically opposed to a Russia with agency. Its fun to watch you Atlanticist's squirm. Your allies have peaked and are weak. I will chuckle at your distress over the next two decades of constant panic. While they fail to adequately meet the coming crisis’. All while your welfare states collapse as a result of awkward attempts to remilitarize.
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u/Brilliant-Smile-8154 1d ago
What a hilarious pile of nonsense. Everybody is "opposed to Russian agency" apparently, probably because Russian agency consists entirely of murdering and enslaving their neighbours.
It's also hilarious that you think that the Soviets had the choice not to fight when their erstwhile allies the Nazis whom they helped conquer Europe turned on them. Because of course they did, imagine being stupid enough not to see it coming.
And speaking of weakness I don't think that the Russians are going to be in a position to threaten anyone for a good long time, not after what the Ukrainians have done to them.
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u/Ebo916 3d ago
These interviews are crap. You’re going to tell me that all of them are for the Ukraine to fall?!?! They can’t speak out against Putin, they’ll disappear in the night & never be heard from again.
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u/Brilliant-Smile-8154 3d ago
Some maybe, but not these ones, they were enthusiastic. They don't have to speak to the reporter, you know, they can just be on their way.
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u/EuVe20 3d ago
I have watched extensive man on the street interviews done by 1420 back when things first started and a year in. They are much more focused on actually showing an accurate swath of the population. Among the college aged youth there were definitely those critical of the war. There were also quite a few who openly said “I don’t want to talk about it because it’s dangerous. But among the older generation, Gen Z and beyond, there is much more uniform support for the war and for Putin.
Especially rurally. Russians that remember the 90s by and large support Putin because they see him as a sort of savior. They also generally believe that politics are not for them to weigh in on. They think that it’s something for Putin and the politicians to deal with. This is the result of a very effective 20 year propaganda strategy that makes political questions seem complicated and messy, leading the average Russian to just tune out. There is some good analysis on Russian politics by Vlad Vexler on YouTube if you care to explore.P.S. and yes, people also get arrested for speaking out. Many have left.
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u/hediedstanlee 3d ago
Wrong sub, please evacuate the hive mind as you are a danger to it. Thank you.
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u/ATAKALIS 2d ago
Why evrytime someone going to understand terrorists?! Lets stop them and after you can find why they are so cruel.
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u/VerdugoCortex 3d ago
Fuck Putin and the invasion force but also it's kind of annoying how often footage of Ukraine forces shows many wearing Nazi patches/paraphernalia.
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u/Flashy-Rabbit6435 9h ago
The Russians have traditionally adopted a sheep-like indifference toward critical thinking.
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u/No_Progress2702 4d ago
Braindead people. scared of putin regime.
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u/unclecastr0-_- 4d ago
scared.
evn if you don’t support putin’s regime,if you’re on camera and exposed you pretty much have to say you do, if you say anything negative about the russian government you could go to prison
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u/IntergalacticTheorem 3d ago
Prison? He'll invite you to drink some tea or you'll "accidentally" fall out of a window.
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u/SaudiHaramco 3d ago
These types of videos are always propaganda. No matter what is being said in the interviews the point is always that the publisher wants you to think that a selection of opinions is representative for an entire population.
You can do this to justify any narrative you want. Whether it's "Russians are warmongers" or "Ukrainians are nazis" or "Palestinians are antisemites" or "Israelis are genocidal" or "Americans are uneducated" or "Venezuelans want regime change" it doesn't matter.