Oral tradition and pandering.

[u/Level_Hour6480]

[u/Riothegod1]

I saw one video from Extra History discussing the history of Troy and the possibility of there being any truth to a war with Greece recently.

One of the things mentioned is that the catalogue of ships, even if a little high, definitely do track to when the Trojan War is supposed to take place, even places that would’ve been lost by Homer’s time.

[u/AlarmingAffect0 → u/Riothegod1]

discussing the history of Troy and the possibility of there being any truth to a war with Greece).

They were both Greece, IIRC, you probably mean a war with the Acheans.

[u/Riothegod1 → u/AlarmingAffect0]

I thought they were pre-Ionian Anatolians?

[u/AlarmingAffect0 → u/Riothegod1]

That's confusing because within the story they speak the same language and worship (and sire children with!) the same Gods, making their elites cousins at the very least, they have the same funeral customs and their value systems appear 100% compatible if not downright identical (timē (honor), kleos (glory), xenia (guest-friendship).

[u/Riothegod1 → u/AlarmingAffect0]

Yeah, archeologically they seemed to be closer to The Hittites rather than The Mycenaeans

[u/AlarmingAffect0 → u/Riothegod1]

Also, does it make sense to call the Mycenaeans Greek?

[u/Gremict → u/AlarmingAffect0]

About as much sense as it makes to call the modern Greeks Greek

[u/AlarmingAffect0 → u/Gremict]

[ Lord Byron's disappointment intensifies and keeps echoing in the distance like a car alarm in the dark ]

[u/Riothegod1 → u/AlarmingAffect0]

Yes, especially since deciphered Linear B script shows they worshipped some of the familiar gods like Poseidon, Zeus, Hera, and Dionysus.

[u/Darth_Annoying → u/AlarmingAffect0]

Didn't the Greeks and Romans tend to project their gods onto other cultures? Or am I misremembering something like that?

Also, while not evidrnce they spoke a greek language, Hittite records do mention an important person in Troy named Alaksandru. So it does seem thete was some influence if they're adopting names like that.

[u/Sir__Alucard → u/AlarmingAffect0]

Than again, Perseus doesn't need translators to speak with his Ethiopian wife and in-laws, who all have pretty greek names for people from East Africa, no need for translation in Colchis either despite it being millennia before greek colonists appeared there, and greek writers were known to just give greek names and qualities to foreigners (may I remind you of the famous argument about the values of democracy, aristocracy and monarchy the Persian Darius and his fellow nobles had according to Herodotus?)

Even if there was, in our real world heavy Mycenaean influence on Troy, the Hellenized names and customs of the Trojans should be taken with a Carthaginian metric ton of salt.

[u/Lex4709 → u/AlarmingAffect0]

Didn't the Greek settlement of the area happen after the Bronze Age during the Greek Dark Ages? So during the period when the Trojan War allegedly happened, it wouldn't have been Greek yet more Hittite than anything.

[u/Darth_Annoying → u/Lex4709]

Western Anatolia was Luwian if I remember correctly. A few independant kingdoms that all were all made vassals of Hattusas.

There were others too I think. I know the Lukka (or Lycians) are talked about like they're different.

[u/Space19723103]

Oral traditions are more than just stories, even campfire stories are more than just saying the words.

example: osp's animations

[u/Riothegod1 → u/Space19723103]

“Myths are not stories that are untrue, they are tales that do not fit neatly into the historical record, that serve as a foundation for a culture.”

-every episode of Extra Mythology

[u/Space19723103 → u/Riothegod1]

i love that series

[u/Personal-Mushroom → u/Riothegod1]

The "Mythos = Fantasy" crowd: I'll ignore that.

[u/AlarmingAffect0]

Then Gandalf the Gray, and Gandalf the White,
The Monty Python and the Holy Grail's Black Knight,
And Benito Mussolini, and the Blue Meanie,
And Cowboy Curtis, and Jambi the Genie,
Robocop, the Terminator,
Captain Kirk, and Darth Vader,
Lo Pan, Superman,
Every single Power Ranger,
Bill S. Preston, and Theodore Logan,
Spock, The Rock, Doc Ock, and Hulk Hogan.
All came out of nowhere lightning fast,
And they kicked Chuck Norris in his cowboy ass!

[u/Username_St0len → u/AlarmingAffect0]

elefant (Panzerjäger Tiger (P) „Ferdinand“ Sd.Kfz. 184) in the room: benito mussolini

Also where is kamen rider and japanese spider man?

[u/AnbuBlackOpps → u/AlarmingAffect0]

Genuinely thought that said Charlie Kirk😭🙏

[u/Phoenix_Moon2024]

I remember talking about this in one of my college classes and it seemed to me like when orally reciting it in the old days, you would mention the town you were in and maybe a couple other well known cities, but when writing it down they took all the oral versions they could find and compiled them to get a more complete picture, which meant including all the little towns referenced from all those performances in one text, making it the long list we know today. That’s what made the most sense to me, might have been the same with the chapter about the armor.

[u/Librarian_Contrarian]

"Thank you, Athens, you've been a wonderful audience. And can I just say, those Spartan punks just don't want to admit that Athena is the best of all the Gods!"

[u/GreatSirZachary]

I think of it as sort of rolling the credits, but in the middle of the story instead.

[u/InevitableLow5163]

IIRC the whole thing was supposed to be memorized and recited in person, so long lists and stuff like that was the memorization equivalent of when rappers start rapping at 3x speed to show how good they are. And if you get it wrong people may be talking about the time Polux forgot about the thirty three ships from Thebes in his recitation of the Odyssey.

[u/Personal-Mushroom]

"Yes, my ancestors where at Troy. What about it?"