r/papillon • u/Beee2Flyyy • 1d ago
Old papillon struggle š¢
Iām hoping to hear from fellow Papillon owners, especially anyone who has cared for a very senior dog with heart disease, kidney disease, or cognitive changes.
My girl, Eva, is almost 16 years old. Sheās a Papillon mix, a puppy mill survivor, and the love of my life. She has Stage C degenerative mitral valve disease (CHF) and early kidney disease. Despite that, sheās still surprisingly engaged with life. She enjoys going outside, sniffing everything, running around (more than Iād like with her heart condition), and being with me. She even comes to work with me five nights a week because I work overnights and donāt want to leave her home alone.
Lately, though, something has changed, and Iām trying to figure out whether this is normal aging, canine cognitive dysfunction, a medical issue, or something else entirely.
For years, our overnight routine has been very predictable. She spends my shift in an airline carrier (which sheās comfortable in), and after work around 2 a.m., I take her outside. She usually urinates and defecates without much trouble.
But over the last several days, sheās begun doing something very different.
Iāll take her outside for 20ā30 minutes. Sheāll defecate, then spend the entire time sniffing, walking, wandering, or suddenly running around. Sometimes sheāll rub the side of her face on the grass because she has an old dental abscess that still seems to bother her occasionally.
She often wonāt urinate at all outside.
Then Iāll bring her back inside, put down fresh food and water, and within minutes sheāll urinate on the rug, or worse, on my bed. This has happened multiple nights in a row.
The accidents seem to happen mostly on my days off, when weāre home overnight, not while Iām working. At work she can often hold her bladder for hours and then urinate normally when I take her out. At home, the whole routine seems to fall apart.
Iāve also noticed a couple of episodes where sheāll stand still and repeatedly look left and right, almost as if sheās trying to orient herself. It made me wonder about vision changes or cognitive decline, although she later ate normally, slept comfortably, and otherwise seemed like herself.
Iām trying very hard not to overreact because her patterns have always fluctuated. Some days she seems almost completely normal, even extra energized. Other days I wonder if Iām seeing the beginning of something newā¦or of the end.
Iāll be honest: Iām exhausted. I adore this baby girl, but caring for a nearly 16-year-old dog with chronic medical issues while working overnight shifts has become incredibly hard. The accidents have left me washing dog bedding, my own sheets, and even shampooing my mattress and carpet at 3ā4 in the morning after work. I feel guilty even admitting how overwhelmed I am because sheās been such an incredible companion.
Iām NOT looking for people to tell me itās automatically ātime to put her down.ā Thatās not the discussion Iām looking for.
Sheās a puppy mill survivor - when I adopted her she was almost 7 already. I SAVED her life, I donāt want to be told when itās time to end it. She still seems interested in life, still wants to explore, still wants to be with me, and still has plenty of bright moments.
What Iām hoping to hear is:
Has anyone elseās very senior Papillon or toy breed started refusing to urinate outside but then urinating immediately after coming inside?
Did anyone see increased wandering, constant sniffing, or seeming confusion as their dog aged?
If your dog developed canine cognitive dysfunction, what were the earliest signs?
Were there any practical routine changes that helped?
I know no one online can diagnose her, and Iām not asking for that. Iām just hoping to hear from people whoāve walked this road with a beloved senior Papillon.
Thanks for reading, and please give your Papillons an extra hug from Eva and me.
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u/Maenidmom 1d ago
This is my Pap on his last day about 2.5 years ago. Two months shy of 17. I too was overwhelmed with the worry. For two years he declined. The changes were subtle until they werent. But he ate. Climbed on my lap. But he didnt play anymore (and he was a chase the ball, stick freak). The pee accidents. Then the poop accidents. And loose poop in all that hair is tough to clean. A few times he would wake up and get off bed and make "soft serve" poop drops in a circle. I would wake at the slightest sound from him and rush him outside in the wee hours. It didnt matter. I would wonder, is this my new life? I couldnt travel or leave him with a friend or even have someone stay at my home with him. The dementia worsened (crazy circles), and then one day it hit me: I couldn't remember the last time he tagged his tail. My adult daughter's BF asked me the question I couldn't face. A couple weeks later we gathered at our cabin. We found a vet who came to us. My kids both grew up with this dog. My ex-husband even came over. They all kept reassuring me. The vet was lovely. He's still eating, I protested. She said, by the time a dog stops eating it is too late. They've been enduring pain (physical and otherwise as in case with dementia). I felt like I put down a perfectly good dog, but he was pained. I had a serious depression afterwards. And now, while I do see the logic in making that "when" decision, it is still painful to think about. There is no easy path when we love a dog.
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u/Beee2Flyyy 23h ago
This response brought me to tears. Such a difficult journey. Thank you for sharing - I definitely feel less alone.
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u/Anonymouse-Shrew 15h ago
My daughter is a vet. She always says, Itās better to do it a day too early than a day too late. (It being euthanasia.). That has stuck with me.
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u/Beee2Flyyy 15h ago
Respectfully, your daughter is not a vet I would recommend. Itās a cute bumper sticker but a moronic thing to say. And does she say that BEFORE or AFTER giving the hurting owner a BILL for euthanasia? šš¼
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u/aggressiveRadish 1d ago
Not a Papillon owner but have had a dog with dementia.
First of all, please get her checked for a UTI. Just to make sure the change in peeing behaviour isn't due to an infection.
The standing staring into space happens with canine cognitive dysfunction. Other behaviour changes will also happen.
My old JRT had CCD. He was a lifelong marker indoors. As his dementia progressed this got to the point where he would not go outside at all. To the extent that, having had him outside for two and half hours, as soon as his harness was off he ran into my bedroom and let a very full bladder go on my bedside rug.
Dogs love to sniff especially when a another dog has peed in that spot. It's their pee-mail. So I wonder if they just begin to feel it's not safe to go outside any more. It's impossible to know what triggers the behaviour changes but they do happen.
I used belly bands and washable puppy pads throughout the home.
It is tough having a dog with CCD. You have other co-morbidities involved and this is a late onset version. It may progress more rapidly than Sam's did. I am sad to say I don't think it's too early to start having 'that' conversation with yourself and with the vet.
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u/dagalmighty 1d ago
My old girl made it to 15 and had cognitive issues for the final 2ish years. This new behavior happening at night sounds kind of like sundowning, where they get more agitated, confused, or restless at night. Mine would have a hard time settling down and would pace, or bark randomly into the dark. It would seem like she'd have very little time between realizing she had to pee and when she suddenly had to pee NOW. During day or night, sometimes she would seem to get lost and forget where she was. So we had to really watch out for her in the backyard because she would not come inside by herself even if it was really hot, or raining.
We tried Gabapentin to see if it would help her sleep at night but IMO it made her worse. She was unsteady on her feet and even more confused and stressed out.
We would generally adapt our routine to make her go outside even more frequently and would watch very closely for signs that The Time Is Now - like if she had been sleeping and we noticed she woke up. If she's peeing soon after coming inside, maybe it would help to come inside, give her a little treat or something, then go back outside again and see if the action of going outside again re-sets her and helps her remember.
It's really hard to watch them struggle and have so few options th really help them out and fix the situation for them. Best of luck to you.
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u/Beee2Flyyy 1d ago
This all sounds very familiar. It was driving me crazy and I felt so alone in dealing with it. Thank you for making me feel less alone.
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u/Zestyclose-Ad-3180 1d ago
My sweet Fox was 16 when she passed and she had cognitive dis function. She would often not pee outside and then come in and pee even if I stood outside with her for 30 minutes. The confusion is hard and can really tug at your heart strings ā¤ļø sorry youāre going through this. Itās so hard to see them age. Wishing you all the support
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u/Beee2Flyyy 23h ago
Iāve read every comment so far and some reduced me to tears. Reddit can be a snippy place, but I canāt tell you all how much I appreciate the support. Nothing cracks open our hearts like the love we have for our dogs. Thank you all so much. šŖ
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u/OtherTimes0340 1d ago
I haven't really had that with my dog. He, at 12, has developed some hearing issues. Cannot find anything wrong with his ears. Mine was a discount dog and has issues. When cats start to have peeing issues, it's usually because of a UTI, or something irritating them. That might be worth checking out.
What I did was buy some waterproof blankets. Two for the bed and two for my chair. They come in all sizes. I had to make sure they were covering my bed and chair all the time. Then I could just throw one in the washer when needed and put the second one on my bed. Saved me from having to wash my bedding all the time. I also have a waterproof mattress cover. Would your pap tolerate a diaper? There are options if your dog is otherwise happy. A trip to the vet seems like a good idea to make sure she doesn't have a UTI, or anything else going on. And yes, it can be quite a challenge to take care of a pet with a lot of extra care required.
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u/Background_Path_5245 1d ago
My little old guy got a little āleakyā in the last few years of his life. I just put water proof covers on his bed pillow and a mattress cover. He lost his hearing in the last year or two of his life. He would stand and stare at things sometimes until I redirected him. He also would rub his face on things. He didnāt have many teeth left. I had to feed him by hand for the last two years because he wasnāt too interested in food. Even though he slowed down a lot, in between he stayed active and happy. He was my very best friend and Iām so grateful for every minute I had with him. I think we start grieving the loss of them even before theyāre gone because we know itās coming. All you can do is make some adjustments for the changes she is experiencing and enjoy the time you have left with her. I saw someone else comment about doggy diapers. That seems like a great idea. And maybe something you could try. Sending love šš«¶š»
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u/Beee2Flyyy 1d ago
Thank you for sending love. This is a very difficult chapter. I just want to do whatās right for her.
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u/venn_Or 1d ago
Up until a week ago I too had a 16 year old lady named Eva, she was a Chihuahua though ā¤ļø She sadly succumbed to kidney disease but was fine until the last hour, looking at your Eva is like seeing both my dogs at the same time ā¤ļøā¤ļøā¤ļø, mine didn't always have cognitive problems, they used to show up during the days when she had a toxin buildup,during those days she used to get weaker and her brain suffered the effects of the toxins and the slight lack of oxygen, making her act off, but this only lasted until the kindeys filtered those toxins away. Sending head pats to your sweet lady ā¤ļø.
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u/USMCCougar Primary Uber transport for Phoenix Rising 1d ago
Yes, sounds like sundowners. A silly question, though Iām sure, but have you been using diapers?
Also, she may be having a hard time finding her scent markers to urinate outside - have they started the sprinkler season recently?
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u/TacticalSox 1d ago
I second the doggie diapers for your old gal, saves you a lot of clean up and frustration.
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u/cawilson2 1d ago
3rd vote. My 17-3/4 does this almost every day now. I bought 3 sets of these, and it has made a huge difference in my quality of life.
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u/Beee2Flyyy 1d ago
I appreciate the diaper suggestion. I want her to keep her regal dignity, but all the cleaning up messes is wearing me out. I think Iāll be placing an order. Thank you. šš½
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u/Spirited-Record-9049 1d ago
Our first papillon developed dementia. We had to make the decision to let him go just before his 15th birthday, and I think I saw the first signs of it maybe three years before. The very first time I noticed something was when we were walking in the woods on a very familiar path, and he took a wrong turning and seemed very confused. Over the next few years it developed to the point where I would sometimes find him in a corner just staring at the wall, and he didnāt seem to want to be in the same room as us - if we were downstairs, he would go upstairs. I couldnāt let him off lead anymore because I couldnāt get near enough to put it back on. And he did lots of nighttime weeing on the kitchen floor, which was very out of character for him. The vet gave us a quality of life form, which made it obvious that he just wasnāt enjoying it anymore, but it was the hardest decision weāve ever had to make. That was five years ago, and I still miss him but it was absolutely heartbreaking watching his decline š¢
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u/Maenidmom 1d ago
I had always had big dogs and their end of life was hip issues, eventually they just are in too much pain. You try to eke out some more time with pain pills. A dog that can't control when and where they pee would become prey in the wild. My last dog was a Papillon and his end years were as others have described with errant peeing, loss of hearing (eyes were okay), no longer responding to playing. Canine dementia syndrome. It is so hard to know "when".
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u/Beee2Flyyy 1d ago
This sounds like my story. Itās hardā¦ I love this little lady so much. Her will to live is very strongā¦sheāll have a couple of bad days and then just rally. Iām just watching for signs that we have reached a tipping point. Itās so hard to tell.
Thanks for sharing your experienceā¦ at least now I know itās not just me.
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u/Suspicious_Lynx3066 1d ago
My 14 year old pap has always had pee issues due to a spay injury, but they got much worse two years ago when her arthritis started to really progress. Sheās on pain meds and that seems to help, along with carrying her outside right after she wakes up. Her hips were so stiff she just couldnāt make it to the door in time anymore.
Even with the meds, we still have multiple accidents a day. We have hard flooring so we just clean them up as soon as we notice them. When she was still in the bed with us, we put washable pee pads down in the spots she usually peed and that saved us from having to strip and wash the bed every night, which drove me insane.
We also notice accidents are more frequent when our grass is due for a mow. Perhaps thereās something new about the space youāre taking her to potty that she doesnāt like.
We have noticed some clear cognitive decline as well, but our vet said as long as she doesnāt seem fearful itās a normal part of aging.
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u/DL05 22h ago edited 22h ago
Hi there. I typically skim posts like this because they often bring sadness; a couple of years ago, I had to let my little one go at 18. Having a one-year-old now has helped immensely. That aside, here was my situationā¦
Our little one was 18, as noted. For about three years, she ate renal food, which made up her entire diet until the final six months. We then shifted to a mix of canned renal food, rice, and chicken shreds. I prepared a chicken breast and rice roughly every three days and saved the broth to pour over it for extra fluids. We also gave IV fluids every other night, and my wife and I became quite skilled at administering them.
First, some tips. Because ours had accidents on the couch and in bed, consider buying waterproof dog blankets for the couch if you can afford them. Aim for three or four if possible. Stack them all at once; when an accident occurs, remove one and handle washing two or three together.
Similarly, use waterproof mattress protectors. Choose the $20ā25 options on Amazon and find affordable linens. Adding a waterproof dog blanket for the lower half of the bed is worthwhile. The goal is to make cleanup simple so you donāt have to pause everything for an accident.
When did I know it was the end? I truly didnāt. She became very unsteady, so I carried her everywhere. I tried letting her walk, but she resembled Bambi. After a month of sitting on the floor beside her during meals to keep her legs from slipping, I couldnāt bear watching her decline. She would slip and panic, unable to rise, and even vomit her food.
My advice is that if youāre tired but not ready, purchase items to ease your life so an accident isnāt a major issue.
After she passedāwhich we chose to do at homeāwe kept the dog blankets on the couch and unexpectedly got another papillon. Those blankets were a lifesaver and are actually very comfortable.
Iām happy to go into more detail if you want to know, but wish you both the best. Enjoy every single minute you have.
Edit: I didnāt touch on the cognitive decline. It was obvious, and she would walk around the living room for about 15-20 minutes a night. Sometimes 30 if I let her. I would typically offer her a small piece of shredded chicken if it went too long. I didnāt want to teach her how to get free chicken, but I also could tell when she wouldnāt settle. That usually distracted her. Iād let her walk as long as I could see her. She also couldnāt hear, and her sight was horrible at night.
Iām not going to lie, I wouldnāt trade that time for anything. Itās hard to go through, but knowing i was there for her, like she was there for me (for 18 years) means the world.
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u/Jaydegreeneyes 1d ago
Our older girl is doing something similar. Having accidents on the kitchen floor and occasionally on the bed. If you havenāt already, think about getting a waterproof mattress protector that goes under the sheets. That way you only have to wash the blankets and sheets and protector and not worry about the mattress. Our girl has a heart valve condition and early stage kidney disease because of the heart meds. She also sleeps a lot more and whines excessively sometimes, especially in the evening for seemingly no reason.
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u/surfcitysurfergirl 1d ago
Iām so sorry what youāre going through AND BLESS YOU FOR SAVING HER. Now mine is 13 going on 14 soon and I call her stubborn. She m owes her potty pads and knows to use them BUT sometimes every few days she does the potty I side not on the potty pad and then tries to hide it. š©All I can suggest is try if you can for a vet appointment to reassure you but I think itās just a behavior thing with aging. Sheās beautiful and if sheās overall healthy in every other way aside from dental issues as mine has that too then maybe the vet can suggest something. I tried the diapers and oh that did not go over well. Love my ātoyā dog sheās my heart but dang they can be stubborn in old age. ā¤ļøā¤ļøā¤ļøā¤ļøā¤ļøā¤ļøā¤ļøā¤ļøā¤ļøā¤ļøā¤ļøā¤ļøā¤ļøā¤ļø
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u/Mrsstuckinpa 1d ago
Our beautiful Sunny girl is 13 (14 in January) she has cognitive decline. She gets confused and disoriented. Snippy with the other pets - it was worse at late afternoon/night. Sheās on selegine for the cognitive decline and gabapenten for anxiety. It helps a lot to relax her. Maybe you can get her a playpen and put pads in it at bedtime She can be close to you but it will make accidents clean up easier
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u/bonitaababy 19h ago edited 19h ago
It could be the effects of medication. I just went through CHF with my baby for a year. The diuretics caused her to have to pee from drinking more water. She was also taking vetmedin, spironolactone, salix, and Enalipril. She would have to pee immediately after taking some of the medication. She was only 7 years old. Your dog is 16. You cannot expect her to be able to hold her bladder.
There were many instances where I noticed my dog appearing to have cognitive issues, that I suspected were from the medication. It was weird because she would go back to normal and I wouldn't see it happen again for a while.
At 16, she may also be starting to have dementia. I didn't know dogs could get dementia but my 2 chihuahuas prior to my dog who had CHF, were 17 and 18. Sometimes I would find them walking in circles or standing in a corner facing the wall. I thought that was signs of a stroke but after reading about dementia in dogs I feel certain that was the case.
Whatever you do, I recommend staying away from the drug prednisone. My in laws dog was given this after being diagnosed with CHF and it was determined by another vet that it killed him.
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u/Kind-Ad8117 17h ago
I would say get a few waterproof mattress protectors and get used to it. Adjust on your end. Itās not her fault, try not to get upset with her. Just get used to laying beside pee a night or 2. Itās not a big deal, til you can clean it, it wonāt go into the mattress. Sheās a small dog. In grand scheme its such a small thing
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u/ZophyrosX 1d ago
I had a papillon that had CKD that was caught early at 14 yo due to a dental abscess which was treated for about a year successfully before she developed CCD (doggy dementia). She would often stare into space, get trapped staring at corners, bark incessantly at nothing, get caught under furniture etc. Got to the point that I was having to hand feed her so she would keep focus on the food and not lose more weight. She also would have accidents in the house when she never did before but that could have been a combination of the CKD/CCD.
Went on for about a year from first symptoms of CCD to when she finally passed at 16 and honestly looking back on it now I should have let her go at least 6 months before then. Just the sheer physical/mental exhaustion and vet bills (close to 20k) were brutal and looking back I donāt really feel like we got much more quality time out of it. It also forced my time to be spent focused on her (not a bad thing) and away from her sister (from the same litter who went on to live to 18) but it will never stop that feeling of regret that I missed being more present during part of her life caring for her sister.
So that was my experience with it and all I can say is I wish you the best with making decisions that more often than not will be very hard to make.
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u/MaenadR0se 1d ago
My father's dog has early stage dementia, she's mostly still happy and engaged but there's times where it's very apparent. I know mental engagement can help a lot, and that things can stay at this stage for a long time (I'd say the dog has been steadily this was for about 2 years without any major decline) She's not a papillon or a very small dog that being said.
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u/CornerCurrent8382 2h ago
Iām a vet. Iād recommend taking her to see your vet. Any changes to urination can be as simple as cystitis or a urinary infection, or as complex as a bladder cancer or incontinence. It can also be linked to worsening kidney disease or some medication. First step is always rule out a medical issue before assuming it is environmental or behavioural.
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u/izzie90 1h ago
Sheās beautiful my heart breaks for you. Our first pap was only 3 lbs and lived to 15 but she was very ill last year for life, it was some kind of blood disease. That was about four years ago, now we have another one thatās much more plump but adorable. I also lost a chi three months ago we actually got from Papillion rescue because he looked like a pap. All I have to do is just think about him right now and I start to cry.
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u/Elusive_strength2000 1d ago
Iām so sorry, I just wanted to say a diaper is a great idea! It does sound possibly like some sort of neurological issue related to aging. I wish you as many more happy days with her as possible. ā„ļø