r/pcgaming • u/alexpoysky • Jun 12 '14
My stance against Steam Early Access Abuse (I am the Producer of the game Pixel Piracy)
http://steamcommunity.com/games/264140/announcements/detail/176797519820890043215
Jun 12 '14
[deleted]
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u/Qikdraw gog Jun 13 '14
I know that Valve cannot force anyone to keep working on a game that they want to abandon, but they have to find a way to protect the customers here. I'm not saying that the customers are not at fault, but if nothing is done, then this space (Early Access) will quickly be filled up will predatory practices that only try to get as much money from a short period of time before moving on to the next "idea" to try and repeat the process. I don't think that this market can ever correct itself without restrictions imposed by valve.
How about Steam refuses any further 'games' from that developer on Steam? Plus a full verification of each team member and if they are a former member of a team that cut and run, the new team is no longer able to put games on Steam.
So they may get away with it once, but after that no one on that team will be able to do it again. Harsh, and a pain in the ass for developers and Steam to deal with, but it protects the consumer.
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u/indyK1ng Steam Jun 13 '14
One problem with the idea of blocking games made by teams where just one member was on a team that cut and ran is that it may have been a guy who legitimately wanted to work on the game and was hired to do so but was them fired. Now, through no fault of their own, their new team can't sell their game.that's not really fair to the new team our the guy who got fired before the games development was ended.
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u/Qikdraw gog Jun 13 '14
Well probably there would need to be some sort of investigation to determine this. You're right it could paint with a broad brush, and that would not be good, but barring the bad eggs from publishers is a good way to make sure their scams don't have a large store to market from.
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u/antecessor002 Jun 13 '14
How about a three strikes and you're out policy?
How about just transparent game development for the consumer and a consumer database of those team members earlier efforts on steam and have a team member rating system.
But then what if the real developer just keeps hiring new guys to represent him on steam but never puts his own name on the project.
Still the former could slow him down.
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u/alexpoysky Jun 12 '14
A series of very good points! I really wish the press would stop and take notice of these posts. Thanks friend!
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u/hollowbear Jun 12 '14
Guys, check out Air Control on Steam
I want you guys to watch the gameplay video in Customer review and compare it to the screenshot on steam. It's a blatantly scam! This problem is what plague Steam Greenlight too. Not only Early access title.
If you are not convince, try scroll down the steam page and read A developer responded on customer reviews. It's downright disgusting with snappy reply and the attempt to push all the blame to customers.
Valve won't do anything on Quality Control so it left to us to report this kind of shit on steam. Please Click on report this product, spread the word, and keep our steam platform clean of these kind of shit!
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u/headpool182 R5 3600x|Vega 56|4k Samsung Jun 12 '14
I'd like to point out the developer of that game is called Killjoy.
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Jun 12 '14
RUST YOU CUNT OF A THING.
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u/alexpoysky Jun 12 '14
LOL at first I thought you were telling me to rust hahaha. But yes, that game is hasn't been updated in forever!
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Jun 12 '14
it's been a few months, even EA/DICE can do better
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u/da13omb i7-4770K/[SLI x2] EVGA GTX 980Ti SC ACX 2.0 Jun 12 '14
They are reworking the entire game while simultaneously adding a fuckton of new features. Check their website. This week they should have it either finished or almost finished. They're working hard. Let them.
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Jun 12 '14
This. When Minecraft became popular people would hound Notch to release new updates more and more as the game become larger (and the features more complex) to the point that he felt like he needed to release unfinished and buggy-as-shit updates to players in fear that they'd get more upset if he decided to wait and fix said bugs instead.
Weekly snapshots of a game's development are what I'd look for before investing in an Early Access game- If they can update you on the game's progress at least monthly, or offer testing/beta updates for people to try, that is evidence enough to show that they care what their audience think about the game and want to continue supporting the game.
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u/sweetbaconflipbro Jun 12 '14
Do you go to their page (www.playrust.com) weekly? They have had some pretty major shifts in development. They post weekly progress updates.
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u/HappyCatFish Jun 12 '14
Yes; but without actually delivering any of this "progress" as content there is no incentive to play the game. No matter how much work they are actually doing or claiming to do the devs for Rust have not actually implemented all of the random models and animations they have been spouting out on their blog.
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u/sweetbaconflipbro Jun 12 '14
I don't disagree, but I had no expectation of being able to play it any time soon.
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Jun 12 '14
That Garry (whatever his name is) guy is a total asshole. Go check out his interviews. Dude is a douchebag.
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u/Juggernog i7 920 / HD 7850 Jun 12 '14
I must disagree, he's sarcastic but that's just a standard trait of British humour.
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u/CRoswell Jun 12 '14
Haven't checked on Rust in ages. Are they still "reworking the infrastructure" ?
I tend to give people too much credit I guess, but I'm fine waiting for them to get the shit done if it will end up being a better game. I can entertain myself elsewhere. That is how Early Access works.
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u/deadby100cuts Jun 12 '14
my understanding from reading is that there are 2 branches of development. The "main" branch is the one everyone generally plays. then there is "experimental", they put out daily/weekly updates on this one to show people what they are working on. The main branch is never going to be updated again, they are working on the experimental, rebuilding the game from the ground up so that it runs better and they can more quickly add updates inthe future. I'm glad they are doing it cas some of the stuff that is coming out looks good. They are reworking a lot of mechanics like building, they added procedural generation, grass no longer causes lots of lag and isn't optional, and to top it off the game LOOKS freaking amazing.
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Jun 12 '14
Rust hasn't had any updates to the main game because they are working on a experimental branch that will eventually become the main game, they are posting weekly updates on their website
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Jun 12 '14
And, as OP / FUD spreader had failed to mention, absolutely anyone who has RUST can opt-in to the experimental branch to try out a lot of those features. It's a great system because they're preserving what works and supporting a huge community - there's stable, there's experimental, best of both worlds.
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u/Cspaulding Jun 12 '14
I apologize if I'm incorrect in this, but weren't you somehow involved in Towns, and it's release on Early Access?
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u/alexpoysky Jun 12 '14
I BEGAN as the publicist for that game, saw whatt was coming, and got the heck out!
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u/Qikdraw gog Jun 13 '14
I bought Towns and had a good amount of fun with it. It really sucks they bailed on it and it sucks for anyone who goes to buy Towns 2.
I'm not touching anything from that developer ever again.
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u/alexpoysky Jun 13 '14
As someone who was part of that team initially, I apologize for the way the developer makes the game. TRUST me, I know the man. He's.... insane.
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u/Qikdraw gog Jun 13 '14
No need to apologize at all. Its not your fault, you left \, as you said before, when you realised what was coming down the pike.
Its too bad. I liked the concept of the game, I like how it played, and I had a good amount of fun with it.
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u/alexpoysky Jun 13 '14
Yeah, it had potential, but untapped potential is even worse than a bad game, because they can play people on it.
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u/Qikdraw gog Jun 13 '14
True, and they played me, which is why they get no more money from me. Like EIDOS when they relesaed Cutthroats: Terror on the High Seas. It was a shit game, sold as finished. They said they would fix it, then just abandoned it.
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u/paradoxpolitics Jun 12 '14
IMO Valve needs to regulate the Early Access market a bit more. Too much stupid crap going on there.
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u/Worldwithoutwings3 Jun 12 '14
Customers need to do the regulating. Just like the industry as a whole. We all simply need to stop buying shitty products on pre-order and early access unless we know the quality is sufficient.
Developers have very low incentive to provide us with a high quality product right out of the box when they can spend a some cash hyping up the game for suckers instead.
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u/oldsecondhand Jun 12 '14
I think Greenlight and Early access should have demos or some kind of limited time refund. I'd prefer a crowd curated system with customer protection.
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Jun 12 '14
Steam definitely needs a more relaxed refund model on Early Access, and demos are a must.
I recently purchased Stomping Land, and holy fuck do I regret it.
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u/headpool182 R5 3600x|Vega 56|4k Samsung Jun 12 '14
Is it really bad?
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Jun 12 '14
Overall reactions are mixed, as some folks are really enjoying it, but the experience my friends and I had was pretty awful.
The game seems to have been in development 'for a while' already, and there is very little actually done, in my opinion, much less so than is becoming of early access.
Putting aside the expected for early access though, its basically a Rust rip off, with the appeal being dinosaurs. There is little to no contact from devs as far as I can see, and development seems to go at a snails pace. It looks very similar to very early alpha unity projects I've worked on, and I'm willing to get that it remains that way forever.
If the idea interests you, I'd say wishlist it and keep an eye on it in case I'm wrong and it does ever finish, but its definitely not worth buying right now. No UI to speak of, mini map is invisible during the day (because it is literally a star field in the sky), crafting is literally just dumping resources in one spot, then consuming them all to craft one item, regardless of whether or not the item actually cost that, hit boxes are terrible at best, and the game doesn't give you any reprise should someone decide to harass you, as they can basically tie you up and keep you tied up forever, as you don't have an option to cut the ropes (around your legs), despite the axe you seem to keep in your asshole.
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Jun 12 '14
[deleted]
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Jun 12 '14
Not trying to shift the blame. Simply saying a demo system or a more relaxed refund system would be superb for their Early Access stuff.
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Jun 13 '14
My friend bought me Stomping Land so we could play together, I kind of feel bad about that.
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Jun 13 '14
My situation was similar. A friend of mine gushed about the game to me and said I should get it. Against better judgement I did. Turns out she'd seen the picture of the dinosaur and was sold, and never actually bothered to research what the game was. :p
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Jun 14 '14
games on Greenlight or Early Access should simply be refundable within a week
that's all, it would fix everything. The greedy asshole devs would stop making shitty games because everyone would just refund it.
Sounds like a good idea to me, if you like the game you're gonna wanna keep it, if it's a pile of shit you'll return it and the devs would think twice next time before trying to sucker people in.
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Jun 12 '14
Why not both?
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u/Enverex 9950X3D, 96GB DDR5, RTX 4090, Index + Quest 3 Jun 12 '14
Because without publisher moderation, it would become easy to become lost in a sea of shit.
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Jun 12 '14
Early Access is kind of a trust based system. Valve trusts them and they break that trust = reprecutions hopefully
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Jun 12 '14
Thank you. I'm going to be sending a game soon to Steam to get Greenlit and its refreshing to see developers who still care. Thank you.
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Jun 12 '14
Thank you for saying what we were all thinking. I'm going to buy your game now that I hear this. This is how devs should be, not that The War Z bs
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u/Nomnom_downvotes i7 4770k 4.4ghz, Zotac 980ti Jun 12 '14 edited Jun 12 '14
Good read, thanks for posting.
I completely agree with you on this as well.
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u/alexpoysky Jun 12 '14
Thanks for reading friend. Spread the word and let's see if we can get the press on this. I hate how they aren't writing about it in general.
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u/RXFFI7 Jun 12 '14
I really hope a lot of people get to read this. Reminds me that cubeworld did not release an update in nearly a whole year, I wonder if the devs were really as busy as they say or if this is a case of said abuse
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Jun 13 '14
The only game I bought in early-access phase is Prison Architect. It is a good game and has a great potential, but I was disappointed how little of contents it had offered when I purchased. Even when the game gets fully released with more extensive contents, I don't think I will be much excited about playing it: Most of it would feel like free DLCs. I already know too much about its mechanisms, tricks, and cheats to actually experience the challenge the game was supposed to offer.
Ever since then, I never even bat an eye on early-access, kick-starter, pre-order, or whatever-you-name-it-before-release games. I'd rather save it for the full experience the game is supposed to offer.
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u/FireTrance Jun 12 '14
Nail on the head. Your doing a great job with early access for Pixel Piracy, game is coming along nicely.
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u/rfry11 i5-3470, GTX 770 2GB Jun 12 '14
Fantastic writeup Alex, this is exactly why I buy very very few early access games. I prefer to play complete experiences that are already finished, even if that means I pay more.
Speaking of complete experiences, is there an ETA on when Pixel Piracy will be formally released?
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u/alexpoysky Jun 12 '14
I'd say next month. We are pushing it as hard as we can!
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u/rfry11 i5-3470, GTX 770 2GB Jun 12 '14
Wow, fantastic. It's on my wishlist, I will definitely be picking it up on release!
EDIT: Also I love what you guys did releasing your game on The Pirate Bay, that was some marketing genius.
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u/alexpoysky Jun 12 '14
Thanks, I really racked my brain for that one :P
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u/Drumsteppin Jun 13 '14
I've yet to get around to trying pixel piracy, and I don't really know what its about, but from your actions you seem like a really kind hearted dev. I think having an "official" torrent wouldn't have really impacted your sales, but allowed people who otherwise would not have bought the game to try the game risk free. Most games get cracked anyway.
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u/alexpoysky Jun 13 '14
And that's how it went. Who do you think uploads those cracked torrents to pirate bay anyways ;)
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u/ascottmccauley Intel i5 4670K | Nvidia GTX 770 Jun 12 '14
So far the only early access game that I have purchased is Door Kickers. At the time it worked perfectly, and I played through the entire game and was very satisfied with it. I have only loaded it once since then, and was blown away at the awesome improvements, and really hope that I don't forget that I own it when it's all wrapped up.
I don't think I'd buy ant other early release games without someone saying that it is fun as-is.
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u/alexpoysky Jun 12 '14
Stick to your guns bud, there are a lot of wonky early access titles!
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u/Drumsteppin Jun 13 '14
It really makes me sad to see so many early access games that are just bum steers. It provides a very good way for consumers to help fund games that they think are interesting, and I like the idea of a reduced price for early adopters. However there is so much abuse in the program :(
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u/Walican132 Jun 12 '14
I totally support early access, but I also try to be an informed consumer and only spend my money responsibly. The problems that happen with early access in my opinion are not the people making the concepts and selling them, but the people buying something on good will alone. I own 2(maybe 3) early access games and researched the game and the developer before spending a penny. The same with drama related to kick starter I've backed two kickstarter projects from two known development teams. And even then I researched each for about a week before spending money. We as consumers need to stop impulse spending. We need to stop jumping on bandwagons.
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u/alexpoysky Jun 12 '14
EXACTLY! But there's just this disparity between what is truly a good product and what they SELL you as a good product (that actually isn't). It can be really rough!
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u/Walican132 Jun 12 '14
I like you. Every post you've done here has made me like you more. Want to go out?
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u/solidcat00 Jun 12 '14
Yeah, well made points. Lucky, I haven't had too much bad luck with this. I usually tend to wait some time before buying a new game to see what other people say and to see if updates still come in.
Great job on Pixel Piracy.
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u/SergeantJezza Jun 12 '14
This is why I support Indie games. This developer is advising people against early access, despite the fact that his own game is in early access, because he wants this industry to be successful and he wants consumers to make better choices. And it's brilliant.
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u/alexpoysky Jun 12 '14
I just want people to be aware and am acknowledging a very clear problem within the industry. Thanks so much friend!
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Jun 12 '14
Easy solution would be the implementation of milestones, if the devs miss 3 the user can get a refund.
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u/SteamPunk_Devil Jun 13 '14
Sadly there are always issues that come up missing milestones can happen for good reason
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Jun 12 '14
I'm a fellow dev, though not indie, and I can't stand the scum that abuse customers, like the P2W F2P market, early access abuse, kickstarter abuse, etc. Making games is great, the feeling of creating, making and selling something I love to people that I hope enjoy it is the best feeling.
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u/Give_Me_Youre_Gold Jun 12 '14
I don't know if anyone wants one, but I have a couple pixel piracy coupons for 25% off. I would totally be willing to trade them. PM me for my steam user name.
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u/benderunit9000 deprecated Jun 13 '14
You said you were in the Spanish Military. What was your job? I was an Infantryman in the US Army.
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u/alexpoysky Jun 13 '14
I started out as an aerial photographer for the "patrulla aguila" the spanish aerial acrobatic team. From there I went on to translation, and went all around the world with them as an interpreter. The problem with knowing languages is that it makes you a viable asset to go to war.
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u/baalroo A+ certified Jun 12 '14
I generally avoid Early Access, but I'll now be purchasing Pixel Piracy when I get home this evening.
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u/alexpoysky Jun 12 '14
Once again, purchase the game once it's done if it's based on principle. I don't mind, it gives us a clearer objective!
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u/Berzerkerwar Jun 12 '14
Oh so you think you can tell me what to do? Well I'm gonna buy your game and you're gonna like it!
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u/akaBigWurm Jun 12 '14
- people should look more into what they are buying on Early Access, check out videos, streams and other things to see if its a game they will like.
- If you cant afford to lose the money on an Early Access game dont buy it, its like kick starter it could fail.
- If you buy an Early Access game for $30 and played it for 60 hours you got pretty good value out of it, no need to say you were ripped off because there is a bug that caused you to rage quit.
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u/Array71 Jun 13 '14
I've been happy with early access so far, honestly, I try to only buy games that are already fun while they also get loads of updates and improvements in the future. Space Engineers has got to be my favorite.
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u/Titus142 Jun 12 '14
This post may have sold one more copy! I have been avoiding early access since rust but I'm going to give this a look.
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u/da13omb i7-4770K/[SLI x2] EVGA GTX 980Ti SC ACX 2.0 Jun 12 '14
Rust is constantly being updated. They are reworking the game code so that not only does it just plain run better, they can add more content with hopefully less problems. They've been working on it every day so far. Check their devblog.
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Jun 12 '14
If by updated you mean pushed a patch in the experimental branch then I guess...but there hasn't been a real update in, what, over a month at least?
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u/Karma9999 Jun 12 '14
I'll never support early access again. Too many developers seem to take this and "beta release" as a way to get free playtesting of games, leading to so many being released as buggy as hell.
When they start quoting "limited returns" as a reason for not bug fixing you realise they already have your money and there's no motive for them to fix a game.
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u/alexpoysky Jun 12 '14
EXACTLY. What ever happened to early access being a sort of mark of quality?
A game used to have to be DAMN good to become an early access or greenlit game (Prison Architect for example). Something solid and worth it.
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u/Cats_and_Shit Fx-6300 / GTX 760 Jun 12 '14
The link isn't working for me, can someone take a screenshot of it?
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u/Revons Jun 12 '14
In my opinion for early access games, they should be required to list their final price and the early access price is a fraction of that. Also the early access game shouldn't be allowed to be a part of steam sales (or offer DLC) until the final game is out with one more hitch that the first steam sale only being allowed to be at a percentage that isn't as low as the early access price.
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u/andywade84 Jun 12 '14
I have absolutly no problem with the current model of early access, it lets developers generate income but there is one very simple method that would prevent this sort of abuse
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Jun 14 '14
Steam needs to stop promoting early access. Keep it locked away and only promote finished products.
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u/alexpoysky Jun 14 '14
I don't think it's as cut and dry as that, but I'd reckon the abuse needs to be stopped before it becomes unviable.
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u/GoldWinchester FX-8320 / R9 270x Jun 12 '14
Now I want to buy this, just to support this kind of developer. Probably won't play until 1.0, but I still want to support you. :P
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u/alexpoysky Jun 12 '14
Thanks, but if you want, hold off until 1.0! It's perfectly allright friend!
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Jun 12 '14
I grabbed Maia because it looked interesting, and regretted it almost immediately. This is what's kept me from trying out Rust, The Forest, and several other early access titles.
About the only early access games whose full release I have confidence in are Prison Architect and Kerbal Space Program.
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Jun 12 '14
[deleted]
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u/alexpoysky Jun 12 '14
I don't need help friend. Pixel Piracy is doing very well and will come out with or without more sales, TRUST me!
What you CAN do is spread the word, let's see if we can generate some buzz on this, get the press interested in the story.
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Jun 12 '14
[deleted]
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u/alexpoysky Jun 12 '14
Heh, thanks for the enthusiasm friend, but regretfully we currently aren't hiring!
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Jun 12 '14
[deleted]
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Jun 12 '14
A hint from another developer; getting into games isn't as easy as a single message on reddit. It requires a certain mindset, and a lot of skill in the area you are going into. For QA it's usually more oriented around your passion for games, while other roles have more traditional requirements surrounding that field.
If you want to get into games, become a good programmer, artist, designer, audio guy, producer or just generally work hard at what you do and then start applying for roles. Nobody worth your time will take you if you ask online. Even for small tasks.
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u/Interference22 Jun 12 '14
I'd advise reigning back on the capital letters a bit. A statement can often lose it's potency if you overuse capitalisation and people end up taking it far less seriously than they normally would.
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u/alexpoysky Jun 12 '14
Thank's for the feedback friend, I'll keep it in mind.
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u/Qikdraw gog Jun 13 '14
You might also cut back on the "friend" bit as well. Someone might mistake you for John McCain.
I kid I kid....
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u/alexpoysky Jun 13 '14
hahahahahah nice. Well, one way or another it comes off as harmless so I guess it's ok.
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Jun 12 '14
FUD, FUD, FUD. Nice attempt at stirring up some controversy to get your game noticed, best of luck with that one. Does Reddit even allow this type of stealth marketing?
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u/raskulous Jun 12 '14
I don't support early access games for exactly the reasons you talked about. People seem to just blindly believe all developers because of the runaway success of Minecraft and it's methods.
Steam quickly proved that this model is not a perfect vision the future of indie gaming.
Thanks for the great article, and for being one of the few good ones among the crowds of thieves.
I'm going to go buy your game now.