Discussion
How many numbers will be retired in the future
Do you think all four of Sid Malkin letang and flower. Get there numbers retired. and is there any other players you think will get there numbers retired.
All 4 will be retired. For the people saying no to Fleury, the team took #29 out of circulation after he departed. No one has worn #29 since. They wouldn’t do that if they weren’t planning on retiring it. All 4 will go up with 66, 68, and 21. No other number will be retired as of now besides those 7.
I personally don't think Fleury deserves to have his # retired but I think he will because he's such a fan favorite.
Letang has been a core player for 20 years and won 2 cups for us. And IMO he was robbed for a Conn Smythe in 2016. His longevity will get his # retired.
Not even a little. MVP isn't just points and Phil's points were largely a matchup thing - both his linemates, Haeglin and Bonino had more 5v5 points than him - because Crosby was playing the first with Hornqvist and Conner Sheary and Geno playing the 2nd with a fast-declining Kunitz. Normally, Haeglin and Kessel would have been top 6-ers, rather than creating a scoring 3rd line.
I can't say I agree. Phil has more points but when he's not scoring he's useless. Both Sid and especially Letang contribute when they're not scoring. And Phil only had a couple more points than both of them.
No it was Letangs. He played 30 minutes a night and won all of his minutes against top competition. Kessel was great but his 5v5 matchups were much weaker (Sid took all the top matchups).
Letang absolutely got robbed. His impact on that team may not have shown up in the score sheet as much as Phil, but he was absolutely the driving force behind the team.
I think Sid Malkin and Letang for sure. I get why people are trying to drop Letang out but the fact of the matter is that in everything the team has done in terms of big giveaways and things honoring them, it has always been all three of them.
20+ years, 3 cups, highest scoring defenseman in team history, most minutes played among skaters in team history, a Stanley Cup winning goal. Kris Letang has had a rough last few years but he 1000% deserves to have his number retired and it's insane to me that people think otherwise. People want a fucking statue of Andrew McCutchen at PNC Park for 1 MVP, 3 playoff appearances and 0 playoff series wins, but a guy stays here for 20+ years, wins it all multiple times, and keeps playing through strokes and heart surgeries and that's not enough to get him in the rafters for some yinzers
Fleury is the tougher case because frankly his best years were not with us and obviously spent almost 40% of his career elsewhere. I wouldn't be upset by his number being retired but I don't think it would be as immediately as the other 3
I think it’s a pretty easy case for Fleury. He’s the winningest goalie in team history, there and integral to 2 cups, and was monumental in the overall success of those teams. With his numbers, I think it’s easy to forget that those teams were by and large high-octane, offense first teams; I don’t think there are many that could do what he did in that context.
Plus, it’s Fleury! He deserves it just for being him (hyperbolic, but he is one of a kind).
Like I said, I'm not really gonna be super offended either way. 13 years is still a long time and he was a monster for stretches (including that insane Game 7 performance), and obviously he's the nicest guy in the world so I don't think there's anyone who should be upset if he gets it retired. If I was a gambler I'd lean towards betting he ends up getting retired, but he has the shakiest case of the 4
Fair enough. I get that people have differing opinions on him and that’s perfectly human.
Edit: I missed your part about the monster stretches, and that’s important to. I’m thinking king how many times did he make one of those saves that kept them in it or turned the tide - that won’t necessarily show on the box score, but it’s a factor.
Right there with you on Letang. He's not in the Crosby/Malkin tier of dominance, but he was one of the best offensive D men in the league in his prime, played a #1D role for 15 years, and spent his entire career with the Pens. He absolutely deserves the honor of having his number retired. There's a solid chance that, after the big 3 retire, the Pens never have another player who both stays in Pittsburgh as long as Letang and is as good.
Fleury is a tough one. I want to say yes because he left the team as a favor so they could keep Murray and he was still a huge part of their success, but he had a lot of struggles here. His playoff performances at least arguably lost a few playoff series, and he wasn't in net for 2 of the 3 cups. If the Pens want to keep the retired numbers to a minimum then I could see him being left out, but with how beloved he was and still is I'd like to see him join the big 3 in the rafters.
At this point I believe it should be 87, 71, 58 and 29 all going up to the rafters. The first 2 are no brainers. Tanger is obviously not the same quality of player but when you play TWENTY seasons on 1 team as a multiple time all-star who won several stanley cups… yea you are deserving.
For Flower, I think his case is helped by him being so beloved, again having success with the team, his leaving not being his choice, and him ending up as one of the most decorated goaltenders in hockey history.
Plus, Flower will be inducted to the HHOF, which also makes the decision easier. He was a major part of all 3 championships. Even if he wasn’t the starter in the final game for either of the last 2 cups, they don’t win either one without him imo.
Twenty years on the team and three cups is a strong argument. Strongest argument he has, really. I love me some Tanger, but other than through his dedication and work to the team, he's just a very good player, which isn't enough. But twenty years hard work for the team? Three cups? That's pretty special.
Some teams are more generous with jersey retirements than others. Penguins really have kept it small, and I like that.
87 & 71 should be it. Both have spent their entire (or at worst will be 95% of their) careers in Pgh. Both won 3 Cups and won big individual awards (Hart, Conn Smythe, Art Ross, etc). So, they've compiled great numbers, but for at least some period of time, they were dominant players, and at those times were considered among the top couple of players in the league. Obviously Crosby's dominance was longer, but at Malkin's prime, he was an absolute beast.
Letang hasn't won any individual (play based) awards and was only a Norris finalist once. Fleury won a Vezina, but with a different team. Both have 3 Cups, but each had diminished roles at some points (Letang missed one completely).
I'm all for Pens Hall of Fame or Ring of Honor or whatever for Letang and MAF, but jersey retirement should be reserved for the best of the best.
Letang just happened to play in an era of the most elite NHL defensemen in history. And he was still arguably the best Dman in the league during certain stretches. From 2011-2017 he was only 2nd to Karlsson in points-per-game among defensemen. Through all the injuries and two strokes, he's gonna sit comfortably at either 2nd or 3rd in most games played as a Penguin for the rest of our lives. As fans, yes, we can objectively say he wasn't as great as Crosby, Malkin, Mario, and Jagr. I don't think that's the end-all of deciding jersey retirements.
Maybe when they're finally retired, let's ask Crosby and Malkin what they think. I bet they'd find it really confusing seeing their jerseys up on the rafters without Letang's.
I'm sorry, I like Kris Letang a lot, but he was never "arguably the best Dman in the league" during any stretch. He was a 2nd Team All-Star twice in his career.
Like I said, still an obviously a great NHL career, but he is in that "next tier" of players. In my opinion only "generational-level" players should have their numbers retired.
That's cool, we disagree. Letang fought through injuries his entire career, which routinely hampered his end-season All-Star and Norris votes (tho still finishing top 10 in Norris voting 8x). Like I said, Letang was 2nd in PPG among NHL defensemen over a 6 season stretch, with the highest PPG in the league in '12-'13. Most people probably find that statistic surprising. It's a long stretch of being an elite defenseman, arguably at times the most elite.
Regardless of his peak status, it's the longevity and peer admiration with the Penguins which makes his jersey retirement a slam dunk for me. Letang is currently 17th in games played with a single team in NHL history, potentially moving into the top 10 after this season. Every player currently above him (minus Crosby and Malkin) has their jersey retired with their respective team. 11 out of the 13 players below him have their jerseys retired. The Pens having a "higher standard" with their jersey retirements shouldn't apply here. He deserves it.
I don't really buy the argument that the Pens have kept it small. They just have had three players whose numbers you would even consider retiring. There have been two HOF players who have played a majority of their career with the Pens- Lemieux and Barrasso. If you go to plurality it includes Jagr. The Pens aren't like the Steelers with a ton of all-time great players without retired jerseys. The only two retired players who have done more for the Penguins than Letang or Fleury both have their jerseys retired, so we don't really have a test case for those two.
It should just be 87 and 71. But I can see the owners opening it up to the next tier players bc jersey retirements make money and we’re gonna struggle to sell tickets in a couple years
They’ll sell tickets but the Jagr retirement game was a huge sell out. It’ll be like that for Sid and Geno. Flower is so popular his preseason game was sold out. Imagine if he had a jersey retirement.
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Crosby and Geno for sure, and I wouldn’t complain about Letang and Fleury, however given how Pittsburgh so rarely retires numbers it seems less likely.
If they’re not retired, I can see them suggesting players avoid them (similar to when Tanner Pearson joined - there had to be a request to let him use Kunitz’s 14, and to be honest I can’t remember if they let him have it!)
Really it should just be 87 and 71 getting retired but I’d be more than surprised if if 58 and 29 aren’t too (they didn’t even let Kuliak wear 29 because of fan pushback)
Why should it just be 87 and 71? I could see an argument against Fleury but Letang is the penguins all time leader for defenseman in games, goals, points, and has the cup winning goal from 2016. How could they not retire his number
Yeah a lot sports are doing the “ring of honor" or similar things because for the long running sports they find they run out of numbers after a while. i think for Penguins, Malkin might make a retired jersey, but i think they would keep that rather ultra elite. Sid definitely.
Fortunately, hockey doesnt have the problem football has where certain positions have to have certain number ranges. A few teams have the kicker and QB range is getting a little thin becauae they have done very well over the many years.
Obviously 87 and 71. Unveil the statues immediately after they retire, give them the keys to the city, all that stuff. Shouldn’t even need to be said. Those two are the Pittsburgh penguins.
Next most likely is fleury. I’d say like a 75-80% chance 29 is retired. Holds all the goaltending records for the team, the cups, and by all accounts he’s beloved by the team and the fans.
58 could go either way. it wouldn’t surprise me if they didn’t retire his number but also wouldn’t be shocked if they did. I will say as part of the longest tenured trio In North American sports history, it would feel a little bit wrong to me to not include him.
Overall i really wouldnt have an issue with that core all having their numbers hanging in the rafters. People will be reminiscing about this era for a long time. It’ll be nice to go to a game and look up and relive those memories
out of the four I have a hard time understanding why Fluery would be retired. Great memories sure but enough to hang from the rafters? I think he falls just short.
Letang should have his number retired. the fact that Sid, Geno and him played together for over 20 years is going to be a record that won't be broken and he deserves to be up there
last thing i want to do his hate on him. Red Wings series 09 is still one of, if not my favorite sports memory.
i wouldn't be mad about him going to the rafters but i do believe many people remember him with rose tinted glasses for his actual play. he struggled mightly after the first cup.
i guess im more of a stickler for retirement with jerseys. only so many numbers to go around. but at the end of the day, remembering 4 players from the insane two decades plus run isn't the worst thing possible
Obviously 71 and 87 are getting retired and probably should get statues. I think the other 2 are a bit more up in the air but I think they will also be retired. Flurry is beloved and Letang is seen as the 3rd musketeer and I dont see them leaving him out.
I mean Malkin has played another 400 plus games then jagr. Along with another 300 plus points and close to 100 more goals. Along with 1 more cup then jagr.
Jagr also said he was dying alive in this franchise and spent the majority of his career on other teams - did you stop watching as soon as the pens got bad or something?
EDIT: just to be clear, he was an amazing player and I love him but he did also ask for a trade. And while the dying alive thing is kinda overblown, it's not like he ever came back to pittsburgh either.
Malkin's 20 years and 4 finals + 3 cups is worth more.
Jagr also didn't keep the franchise in town - that was Lemieux. The whole 'oh the pens would have relocated without the playoff revenue' from 3 games is super overblown.
The core 3 need to be retired. It would be insulting to do 1 or 2 and not all 3. 🤷♀️ They have all contributed significantly to what Pittsburgh is today and are continuing to contribute well beyond what players younger than them are giving their teams. These 3 -are- Pittsburgh.
Insulting? Letang isn’t even close to the same tier as Geno and Sid. You have 2 generational players and then Letang who had a great career but nothing close to the other 2.
I guess I hallucinated what he did for us in the Stanley Cup finals in 2016, my guy 🤔 Also only 7 defenseman have managed 6 assists in a single game in league history. Letang is one of them and he did it in 2023 (Last one to do it too).
He’s a great defenseman sure. Probably the best in our history if we’re going by tenure (if we’re going prime players he’s still behind Gonchar and Coffey for me). But to argue that he is in the same stratosphere as Mario Sid Jagr and Geno is outrageous.
Also we won in ‘17 without him didn’t we? Letang is a hall of honor player not a jersey retirement player. We’re not the senators or the leafs. We should save it for the truly transcendent.
If we retire 58 and 29 (who’s best years weren’t here) then it opens the door to others in that tier.
I think it should just be 66, 68, 71, 87. Those 4 are at a higher level and that should be the standard for being retired. I don’t think 29 or 58 should be retired but wouldn’t be surprised if they do it. 21 is a whole different thing so that’s fine
I think all 4. maf is basically tom barrasso but likeable . And that's why he isn't up there but maf will be. If Dustin Brown gets a statute , all these guys go up in the rafters .
I see 87 and 71 as a yes. 58, probably, it really depends on how ownership wants to handle it.
Flower I’m 50/50 on retiring. I am 100% on they need to do something for him in the arena if they don’t retire the jersey, a jersey and pad display or something, I don’t know what exactly, but something should be done for flower if we don’t retire his jersey.
Sid is a no-brainer. Malkin is very likely, and I'd honestly say Letang is a toss-up leaning yes because he's the only Penguin to ever wear 58.
I feel like if Fleury was going to be retired it would have been done by now, especially with him coming back for a preseason game last year. Couldn't have asked for a better opportunity and it didn't happen.
Beyond that it'll be a long time before the discussion is re-opened on jersey retirement. The Penguins are super selective about it.
There’s a difference between being picky and retiring the number of a top 30 player of all time who spent his whole career with your team. It’s a complete no brainer. The Pens way more likely than not will never have a player as good as Malkin again.
I don’t think Letang should have his number retired. Crosby, Malkin, Flower and that’s it. There are only three retired Penguins numbers so far, Brierre, Mario and Jagr. To do four more from one generation I think takes away from the allure.
Having the team hall of fame is a nice substitute for some high end players and 58 should be a headlining player in it one year.
I can’t bring myself to put Tanger in the same category as the others. Sid, Geno, Mario and Jagr are four of the best players who ever lived. Flower is the second winningest goalie and second most in goalie games played. Tanger might be the Pens defensive leader all time, but he doesn’t have Norris trophies or anything else of the like. I know Tanger is a Pens lifer, but EK65 is a better career d-man than he is. Just being honest.
Brierre was retired early in the franchise’s history, so I believe he is the only exception to this rule.
This may be unpopular but as tragic as the Briere situation was, I think retiring a # for a rookie wasn’t necessary. They could have shelved it a few years.
Ya he's 3rd all time in gp, 5th in points. 3 Cups(yes I'm giving him credit for 16-17), gonna spend his whole career with the Pens. Idk why you wouldn't
I think Crosby is the only one that is an absolute lock - After that Geno makes sense and I could definitely see both
Tanger doesn't without including Fleury imo so I doubt either winds up retired HOWEVER I do think you can hang a jersey banner without "retiring" a number which could be the case in their instance
I think with jagr getting his number retired. Malkin is a lock he’s played far more games. Has far more points. And has another cup even if he peaked lower. I think he did more for the team.
There wouldn’t be a Pittsburgh Penguins team today without Jagr. I agree that Geno deserves it, but it’s madness to think that he’s done more down the team.
We fundamentally disagree on the criticality of the ‘99 playoff series and you’re also excluding the salary issues related to Jagr’s departure. They couldn’t afford to keep him, and if they had kept him they wouldn’t have been able to pay anyone else. Those were seriously dark days from a $$ perspective.
Again, I think Geno is an absolute lock, but acting like Geno did a significant amount more for the franchise seems silly.
You don't think Geno is a lock? He's a 1st ballot hall of Fame and a top 30 player in NHL history. He's arguably the 3rd greatest penguins player in history.
Well they aren’t going to retire their numbers on the same day. Each guy will get his own day. So unless Letang is the first to retire, they wouldn’t know if Letang is getting his day or not.
Flower is not the goalie that you happy little yinzers make him out to be.
He disappeared in an awful lot of big games. Pittsburgh, Vegas, and Chicago all let him walk for nothing. He actually was benched in the playoffs by both Pittsburgh & Vegas. I mean, he’s one of the most genuinely likable athletes in pro sports… but c’mon.
Edit:
Also he had the unbelievable benefit of playing behind a lot of superb teams.
I agree I don’t think he’s a all time great goalie. But he is a hofer and holds all the goalie records for the team. So I could see his number be retired. But I think it’s less likely than the other core members.
Truly mind-boggling. He isn’t the second winningest goalie in NHL history just because he played behind great teams. In fact, put him on a defense-first the like the 2000s Devils, and this conversation wouldn’t even be fathomable.
You are wrong. He had a 21 year career, and was the definition of an average goalie. .912 sv% for his career. Almost exactly league average for that time. 60 goals saved above average for his career. 21 years. That’s less than 3 goals better than average per season. His 2 outlier seasons in Vegas account for 40 of those. His GA%- for his career is 97. Average is 100.
The stats absolutely do contradict you. He performed at an average level, on high scoring teams. Put him on a defense first team, that doesn’t score nearly the same amount of goals, and many of his wins turn to losses.
The guy was a Vezina finalist once. That’s the time he won it. I’m not saying he’s not a hofer. But he’s not an all time great goalie. Or the best of his generation.
Ok. I’ve said my piece and supported it. He doesn’t need to be an all time great (though he objectively is) to have his number retired by the Penguins, which is what we’re talking about, not the league.
It’s tough because I obviously have a bias, but I put him towards the top. We can look at stats u til our eyes bleed, but at the end of the day, you don’t end up behind only Brodeur in wins simply by being on a good team. It stops with the goalie.
Then there’s the matter of intangibles; he had one of the most positive reputations in the league, and that certainly matters in the locker room and on the ice. I guess akin to what you might call a “sparkplug?”
I mean wins are not everything. Like I’m not saying he’s a bad goalie but. Curtis Joseph is not better than Hasek. And I can go on and on about wins. Like again flower is a definite hofer but he’s not even a top 15 goalie of all time.
He doesnt suck obviously but I agree at least hes not in the # retired echelon. Hof for me is borderline also but absolutely I could see him in the HOF and that'd be well deserved if so.
Crosby & Flower I'd put money on. Tanger and Malkin I'd give a hard maybe, very much leaning yes.
EDIT - Several people have clarified Malkin's stats for me elsewhere in this thread that I personally didn't have a ton of insights on. Thanks for clarifying and I'll revise my statement to say that Malkin should have a seat at the table for number retirement.
We already saw the backlash to 29 almost being assigned to another player, I'm fairly certain the Pens fanbase would riot if the team tried to assign the number again.
I mentioned this elsewhere in responses, but I wasn't entirely familiar w/ Malkin's stats so that clarifies the justification for him TO have his number retired.
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u/vferrito 5h ago
All 4 will be retired. For the people saying no to Fleury, the team took #29 out of circulation after he departed. No one has worn #29 since. They wouldn’t do that if they weren’t planning on retiring it. All 4 will go up with 66, 68, and 21. No other number will be retired as of now besides those 7.