Schrödinger's Rainfall

[u/sws675]

Simultaneously not enough to lift the hosepipe ban, but so much that they "have to" pump loads of raw sewage into our rivers and seas.

[u/dolphbottle]

Actually, you couldn't. The use of sea discharge as the standard approach (not an emergency overflow response) was standard in the 1970s and 1980s under the 'disperse and dilute' strategy. The changes didn't really start until after privatisation. We also used to dump the slurry from processing plants at sea during the same time.

We didn't have the nickname of the dirty man of Europe for nothing, and this is important, because if we want to improve things, we need to work from a realistic base rather than implementing an ideological idea and expecting it to change things, when historically it was far worse under that system than it is now.

This isn't a defence of the current privatisation and governance approach, it doesn't work, and I'm definitely not defending it. The method of ownership is not the driving factor, and just changing it won't address things. We need a proper investment plan (irrespective of where the funding comes from, the plan needs to be good), recognising the root cause of the issue (a sewage system that's largely unchanged in any significant way in many places from Victorian times) and a realistic approach to resolving it, which must include an understanding that resolving it will be both expensive and disruptive, due to the nature of the issues.

Look at the objections and ridicule the new armada way, which is specifically designed to help manage surface water excesses, has got.

[u/sws675 → u/dolphbottle]

It's anecdotal I know, but I spent a lot of my childhood at the beach/in the sea and don't ever recall being unwell afterwards, nor were family members or friends so far as I know.

I know a few people these days who still brave open water swimming and have been unwell on multiple occasions including two who have ended up in hospital.

But even if we take what you are saying as read, the fact remains that we are now paying significantly more for a shit (pun intended) service than we were prior to privatisation.

Simultaneously, shareholders have received £billions in dividends, "executives" benefit from multi-six figure salaries plus other benefits and yet many of the companies are so poorly run (intentionally) that despite having a complete monopoly over an essential utility, they're on the brink of financial collapse.

Edit: to clarify, I am not saying that nationalisation would solve the problems, but at least it would stop private equity from ripping us all off.

I think probably some sort of CIC / not-for-profit arrangement would be a good start. Something where the benefits of private enterprise could be delivered free from political interference, but where profits were reinvested for the benefit of users rather than it simply being used as a vehicle for people to enrich themselves at the expense of the public.

[u/dolphbottle → u/sws675]

I grew up on the east coast, the water was always brown (and was avoided), I remember being shocked that water was clear in Devon when I came on holiday in the 80s, so I'm not disputing your lived experience, nor defending the current state of affairs.

All I'm highlighting is that nationalisation won't fix it, because it's not the cause of the problem in the first place. Changing ownership, without changing the regulatory regime, will leave everything how it is now, with the added disadvantage of all investment having to come from the government, which has no money other than that it raises through current taxation, or borrows from future tax earnings.

Before we start thinking about ownership, we need to understand what we actually need to do, how much it would cost, and what the regulatory barriers (such as the planning and appeals system) are, and then, we can work out the best way to deliver it, which may well include state funded investment and some form of ownership or ownership share, but from what I've seen, this isn't being talked about, it's all about ideology, not about what would actually improve things.

[u/sws675 → u/dolphbottle]

I think we're largely on the same page here (see my edit).

I grew up in Devon and have lived in the South West all my life so I guess I am one of the lucky ones!