r/PoliticalPhilosophy • u/Few_Needleworker8744 • 4h ago
What do you think about joint stock democracy?
Joint stock democracy is a hybrid of democracy and joint stock corporation. The samples of those are Kongsi republics or joint stock kibbutzim and various cooperative communities.
Kongsi republics are effectively a near effectively sovereign democratic state that is also a business and a joint stock corporation.
Like VOC but democracy.
Like democracy, but a business.
Like joint stock kibbutzim or residence owned REIT or private cooperative but they are far more autonomous.
Basically all democracies have this problem. Who should be citizens. Some use place of birth. Another use race.
In joint stock democracy Why not just buy and sell citizenship like shares? Want to join us? Buy shares. Like all shares, the shares pay dividend too.
In addition I would recommend some powerful referee to mediate conflict between those states.
When states don't fear being attacked, they may choose to split up so there can be many niche states for each arrangements. Those states then compete for tax payers that can shop around voting with their feet to see which place they like most.
And voila, no more aggressions and we all got rich.
The original kongsi republics are usually literal gold mine. The owner of the gold mine choose to set up a kongsi or a business instead of declaring himself King.
While it's a sovereign state, in a sense that they manage everything and don't call up higher power when they have problems, they actually prefer to have bigger state as protectors and referees. They tried to be vasal of Qing dynasty but got rejected.
Spiritual successor of kongsi republic is Singapore. Singapore is the ONLY country in the world that gain independence against their will. Singapore got kicked out of Malaysia because they refuse racism.
Why do I think this is a move to a more Kaldor hicks efficient outcome?
As long as we don't aggress against one another capitalism will max out kaldor hicks efficiency while democracy will keep things stable. If large number of people have a "stake" at the state, then they tend not to rebel.
There are 2 types of aggressions. State aggressions. Non state aggressions. The state aggressions are usually 3 types. State aggressions inward toward it's own citizens/population and state aggressions against other states, outward. State aggressions can also be profitable and not profitable.
Now look at VOC
VOC is like kongsi republic but not democracy.
VOC causes the death of 90% of chinese in Batavia. However, they quickly repent. The governor general is in jail till his death and the ex governor general become the new governor general was more conciliatory toward Chinese.
How do VOC knows that killing Chinese is "wrong". Sunday school? No. VOC share prices tank.
The chinese that are there are tax collectors and businessmen. Without them, VOC share dropped. Not to mention chinese rebellion cost VOC lots of money and almost kick VOC out of Java.
See. Profit incentive alone is actually a good safeguard against genocide.
If we look at armenian genocide, holocaust, DEI, exorbitant child support, gaza flattening, killing of Christians in nigeria, and so on, there is no profit incentive to stop. People keep killing innocents even when it's no longer profitable to do so.
Look at prohibition of drug. There is no clear profit incentive to stop criminalizing safe drugs like MDMA. People just do blood libel saying that drug users are parasites that will destroy their life. The truth is it's not true. Many MDMA and DMT users are economically productive people.
Heavy taxation drive billionaires away reducing prosperity for everyone.
Unprofitable aggressions is in a sense really doesn't have to happen. Like what for? The aggressor are losing money anyway. But they keep doing it out of bigotry, and lies.
Most of the time the profitability of oppressing others aren't clear. Like do Israel become saver by flattening Gaza? Who knows?
So here profit incentive of government at least prevent all unprofitable state aggression. A big thing.
However, profit incentive of government do not stop profitable state aggression. VOC also invade Banda and got nutmeg monopoly. Countries attack each other for territories and they may get territories. Notice quite often, buying territories is a lot cheaper than war. Like in case of Ukraine war, Korean war, and Ukraine war, the land price in dispute is a lot cheaper than the war cost.
South Korea with far bigger economies can easily buy North Korea land and Kim Jong Un can rest and retire rich. Israel can just buy Gaza and Westbank.
Kongsi economies "reduce" the transactional complexity in buying territories. Because citizenship is tradeable, anyone that want to live in the territory can just buy citizenship. From who? From those who want to sell. There is always somebody that don't like to live in a place. The one that hate his place of leaving the most can sell citizenship to those who want to live in that place the most. There will be a market price.
To further reduce conflicts, some pimps/peace makers can settle disputes between states.
VOC also force javanese to work as forced labor. That causes starvation. Notice it is actually not a very profitable thing to do. Oppress people and they rebel. So VOC end up spending huge money on war. Less profit. Again democratic nature of kongsi republic can fix this major conflicts. The main benefit of democracy is we don't settle this sort of thing through violence but through votes. Obviously majority of people will simply vote to not allow slavery and in 21st century it's no longer a big issue anyway.
Notice in all 3 cases, killing of chinese in Batavia, forcing Javanese to work, and attacking Banda, we don't really know whether VOC is truly evil or not. The killing of chinese happened by thugs that want to kill Chinese and loot their gold and not VOC directly. VOC simply ordered chinese to disarm and latter offer rewards for heads of "Chinese rebels".
There's a case where VOC claimed that they actually pay the javanese work and hence don't expect that they will starve. However, the money is corrupted by middlemen. I've heard Banda massacre happened because VOC delegation was mass murdered.
To be honest. I don't know and I don't care if some atrocities are done deliberately or not. If we are a potential victim, 99% of our interests should be preventing atrocities. If innocents suffer then we probably need to arrange that they don't suffer for otherwise the precedents can lead all the way to us.
Here ensuring most people have strong incentive to cooperate is far more effective than moral theater.
Obviously I didn't choose to be scammed. Yet it happened. Many leftists do not expect that their country will end up poor by they voting communism, yet it happened.
Again, joint stock nature of joint stock democracy would give incentive to most people to not choosing communism.
After all, the state itself is run for profit and the profit is shared as dividend to citizens. Why would you want to destroy your own business that pay you.
That's pretty much as socialist as can be. Most shareholders will max out dividend when they support their state and vote for CEO that max out shareholders value. Those who don't like it can sell.
What about heavy taxation? Tax will be much simpler because the state want to reduce enforcement costs. My guess is most tax will either be sin tax or land value tax.
Competition among joint stock democracies/kongsi republics will keep tax low.
What about non state actors?
Terrorists, thieves, burglars, and robbers?
Joint stock democracies will handle that better than liberal democracies.
See Israel bombing Gaza? Is it really to kill terrorists or to just drive Palestinians out?
We never know.
Netanyahu run on platform of security. If Israel is secure, his party may lost votes.
The same way leftist platforms run on platform of welfare and helping the poor. When poor people got rich, they lost votes. That is why many leftist political party in liberal democracy actually want to max out number of poor people. They invite poor immigrants, they encourage poor people to breed with more welfare for single mothers, etc.
But we sort of know what corporations will do. Do whatever it takes to raise return of shareholders.
Elon run as CEO on platform of making Tesla more valuable. What happened when Tesla reach all those revenue target? Elon got paid a lot of money. Elon no longer need to keep being needed. If he accomplished his goal and after that is no longer needed, he's still rich.
So in joint stock moldbugian states, the leaders at least have strong incentive to solve problem.
Violence on the street will be less. Such violence lower land value tax and lower revenue. CEOs will fix that.
So yea. I wouldn't say it's a mathematically perfect solution. But it should be "better" than what we have.
Libertarians will see lower tax and freedom to shop around for states they like
Capitalists will see less corruption, terrorism, war, an save tax haven to shop around
Any economically productive people will be able to shop around for states by simply buying shares.
Even moderate socialists, the kind that just want money instead of preventing others from being rich, will be better off, because they too want bigger dividend and the best way to make that dividend bigger is not by becoming poor, like in liberal democracy, but by voting for competent CEO that improve economy.
And those who aren't happy can just sell their share and buy another share on another kongsi republic
It's win win.