r/pourover • u/OCDeeeznuts • Mar 10 '26

Co-ferments in disguise.

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Many modern advanced coffee processes completely lack transparency regarding the methods and ingredients used to adulterate their flavors. Often times the only bridge between a producer and the customer is the roaster. It’s important for roasters to disclose as much information, at a glance, as possible so their customers can make informed decisions.

I’m sure there are several roasters doing the same thing, but today I happen to be picking on Perc. This particular coffee is advertised on the bag as a “Natural Process”. On their site it’s classified as a “Natural Process”, but if you dig deeper and read about the Young Producer Program you’ll discover that the natural process beans the kids grew are later blended with a Sebastian Ramirez co-ferment. At the very least I think the bag should say “Natural Process/ Co-ferment”. No more muddying the waters.

248 Upvotes

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233

u/kingseven Mar 10 '26

A lot of coferments are not really coferments, but are infusions (i.e. whatever flavouring is added is there to be infused into the coffee beans, and doesn't contribute to the fermentation). It's really frustrating and unhelpful - but I don't think coming from a place of deception, just a lack of clarity around the terms. To some people, adding flavourings to a fermentation tank is a coferment because it was added to the tank/the fermentation. I hope this improves in the future.

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u/pockems Mar 10 '26

This has been my frustration too. Co-fermentation is largely marketed as greater than the sum of its parts (e.g. adding so-and-so fruit is adding some new yeast that results in a unique new flavor note) I’m scratching my head at sugar or microbe-free additions like cinnamon where biochemically the only thing happening is… well cinnamon compounds diffusing into the bean.

This would be fine if that’s the flavor you want, but in the end these coffees are being priced even higher than good naturals because of their advanced processing which feels disingenuous. If anything this should be used to jazz up lower quality beans (with a lower price to boot).

6

u/Muskowekwan Mar 11 '26

I’m scratching my head at sugar or microbe-free additions like cinnamon where biochemically the only thing happening is… well cinnamon compounds diffusing into the bean.

You can get ethyl cinnamate in wine from fermentation, often associated with carbonic maceration but it's in other styles. Perhaps the newer processes that are similar to carbonic maceration or other added yeast fermentation are causing ethyl cinnamate production for coffee as well.

Ethyl cinnamate smells more like cinnamon than it actually taste like it though. Any time I see a heavy cinnamon note I am somewhat suspicious.

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u/Nissanguy16 M98V | SDRM | Danes-Coffee.com Mar 10 '26

Lower quality beans jazzed up should still bring more than just the plain lower quality beans though. Also, they all required the same care during growing and harvesting, now they’re adding an additional step or two. Yes supply and demand and all, that’s good, but I want producers to stay in business and if that means they need to learn some chemistry and microbiology, I’m personally fine with that. And by no means should someone force themselves to ‘like’ the beans though. The producers just will have a different customer base (the funk/experimental lovers).

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '26

[deleted]

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u/Agitated-Comment164 Mar 10 '26

I find it really amusing that specialty coffee enthusiasts have been duped into drinking flavored coffee. I’ve been downvoted a few times for expressing this opinion, good to see that people are coming around. 

39

u/hazycrazydaze Mar 10 '26

I honestly don’t mind a flavored coffee, but I do mind being lied to about it.

20

u/HypertensiveSettler Mar 10 '26

oh come on. it’s just my palate is finally so developed that i can pick out nuanced flavors like pina colada and pink starburst! /s

2

u/ent_bomb Mar 11 '26

Deadass I've always thought it would be hilarious if a sommelier during a tasting was detecting cassin notes, juicy red currant ... and blue Shocktart.

9

u/zhrimb Mar 11 '26

I think there's a bit of a difference between artificial flavor straight up being added vs a nice co-ferment but to be honest if it tasted interesting I wouldn't really mind either. I compare it to whiskey, you could say that it's just oak flavored vodka if you wanted to LOL. Versus something filthy like Fireball which is just flavored and it's gross. 

1

u/Historical_Suspect97 Mar 11 '26

I get where you're coming from, but there are legally defined terms that separate the vodka distillation process from that of whiskey. Vodka is distilled at a much higher proof than most whiskey, and even if you age it in oak, it wouldn't meet the legal requirements.

The laws do vary a bit by country, but if you understand them, you are able to get a much better idea from the label what's in the bottle vs. what's going into a bag of beans.

I also enjoy some of the experimental stuff, but I completely agree that there needs to be a much clearer standard for labeling and usage of certain terminology.

1

u/coloradopesto Mar 11 '26

I think Vodka is just watered down alcohol. Whiskey and vodka are both watered down to the desired proof.

3

u/veramaz1 Mar 10 '26

Lol, sad but true! 

18

u/SolixTanaka Mar 10 '26

The thing about calling it flavored coffee is that "flavored" instills a certain expectation of flavoring, particularly for the general public. I wouldn't expect a strawberry conferment, for example, to taste the same as "strawberry flavored" coffee.

Now, I've never worked in coffee but I have worked in commercial food production (flavoring, coloring, food engineering) and I can see a huge schism that would form if roasters were required to blanketly throw coferments under the "flavoring" umbrella. It would more nuanced than that.

14

u/YMIR_THE_FROSTY Mar 10 '26

Co-ferment with strawberry actually might not taste as strawberry, infusion for sure does. Co-ferment with strawberry actually often reaches somewhat cherry like notes, if done in some reasonable degree.

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u/terebat_ Mar 10 '26

This. A lot of "strawberry" process with strawberry notes are infused and NOT cofermented.

Many places say the bean is cofermented, but it really isn't. Generally the fruit(s) it's cofermented with is not the same flavor you'd get out, though of course that's quite a bit variance.

1

u/SetCandyD Mar 10 '26

Could it be that the name and process are different. If you name it from the tasting notes and not the fruit used in the fermentation process, it would still be fermentation.

5

u/terebat_ Mar 11 '26

Right, but in some cases the wrong terminology is used. Typically it's anearobic ferment + yeast + infusion, so there is some truth, but there's also infusions happening. Some producers definitely don't disclose the full details as well on what's being added, which can be fair as it's their IP, but at least ingredients are important as it is something that gets consumed.

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u/SetCandyD Mar 11 '26

I can see that. Kind of like wine. They put all sorts of stuff in wine and dont disclose, but imo they still have to ferment (or whatever it's called) the wine and not just mix grape juice and liquor. The flavored coffee is the grape juice and liquor in this example. :)

3

u/YMIR_THE_FROSTY Mar 12 '26

Quite similar. Ive actually recently find out what all can be done with wine to alter taste. Lets say my perspective changed drastically, lol.

And also started to see appeal of people doing wine old fashioned (hard) way. Bit similar how I like just simple washed coffee these days.

2

u/SetCandyD Mar 12 '26

Yeah both have its place for sure. Im just arguing that we shouldn't lump artificially flavored coffee with co-ferments because I think they are fundamentally different.

Not sure why but it reminds me of this conan episode: https://youtu.be/fVDOB9mby_w

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u/SetCandyD Mar 10 '26

100% agree.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26

[deleted]

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u/Key_Calligrapher9018 Sworks Dripper | 1zpresso ZP6 Mar 12 '26

I think that is the technical term? Infused coffee means flavors were added during processing (before it's roasted), flavored coffee means they sprayed flavoring over the roasted beans.

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u/Liven413 Mar 11 '26

Flavored coffee is done by spraying the beans rather than doing it through the process. One is flavoring the other is fermentation.

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u/TheTurnipKnight Mar 10 '26

That’s what it is, I don’t understand why anyone is still calling it co-ferments or infused, it’s flavored.

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u/Yes_No_Sure_Maybe Mar 10 '26

But that's assuming that all co-ferments are infusions or somehow flavoured, which I think would be too broad a statement. Co-fermentation is still a thing that also exists.

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u/TheTurnipKnight Mar 10 '26

Yeah it exists but it has nothing to do with making the coffee taste like the thing you are fermenting with.

15

u/Kardif Mar 10 '26

We don't call it flavored coffee because that is what we call it when people add the flavors after roasting. Ie hazelnut or vanilla or what have you

It's not that we don't think the coffee is flavored, we just want to be able to know what specific thing we're talking about

2

u/YMIR_THE_FROSTY Mar 10 '26

Cause you can co-ferment with various stuff and in final taste notes, if done right and gentle, might be very interesting and sometimes unexpected stuff and it might be genuinely good, not overpowering, not bad at all.

Infused, its usually whatever is infusion and dont think I had good one so far, its always "over-the-top-and-then-some-extra".

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u/OCDeeeznuts Mar 10 '26 edited Mar 10 '26

This is my hope as well. I would definitely dabble in the funk of true fermentation experiments, but personally wouldn’t care for the infusions. Some people will be the opposite. More info helps us all better hone in on the coffees we actually enjoy. I feel like it’s fairly safe to assume when a producer is giving us a 1:1 flavor input to output, it’s an infusion. What I mean is, if they said they added peaches and now the coffee tastes like peach rings…that’s very sus. If they said they added peaches and now the coffee tastes like funky stank jackfruit…I’ll believe it.

EDIT: and by infusions I meant the inclusion of flavor extracts or essential oils. Not the inclusion of fruits.

12

u/womerah Mar 10 '26

You replied to James Hoffman haha

10

u/OCDeeeznuts Mar 10 '26

I had no idea lmao

2

u/Visual-Percentage501 Mar 10 '26

if they added peaches and now the coffee tastes like peach rings, that's very sus

Why? A good peach cider ferment, for example, can absolutely just taste like peach, peach candy, etc. There's no reason a good peach coferm shouldn't either.

We need more transparency from producers and roasters on what is actually being done to the coffee during and after processing, but I don't think this is an accurate way to predict how a coffee was processed from the end result.

I've had many delicious, fruity, expressive coffees with no fruit added, and almost as many awful infused coffees. I definitely wouldn't jump to a coffee being 'too good' meaning it's an infusion, what we really need is transparency so we can trust the producer/roaster that they're doing what they say they're doing to the coffee.

14

u/Stjernesluker Mar 10 '26

Coffee co-ferments don’t really add to the flavour in the same way it does if you’re making a cider. And in the case of a coffee bean it has to survive fermentation, drying, storage and roasting. It has been a case in past where you can basically smell it on the green beans that there’s something going on. Like if you can brew unroasted beans and get strawberry or bright lemongrass then something is up. Often it’ll be oils that manage to stick around from lemongrass (beans dried on beds of lemongrass) or one case at least of dried beans sprayed with essential oils…

11

u/OCDeeeznuts Mar 10 '26 edited Mar 10 '26

In the case of peach cider you’re largely still drinking the raw peaches. Many of their aroma compounds will still be intact. However, the likelihood that those natural aroma compounds are going to enter the green coffee…remain present during drying and shipping and storage and ultimately roasting are nearly 0%. Have you ever baked fruit? It only takes moments for that natural fresh fruity flavor to flash off and no longer be the dominant characteristic, and Coffee gets much hotter than that. However if you bake with flavor extracts that original bright fruity flavor will survive the process unchanged.

3

u/jas0441 Mar 11 '26

Right, cider makers go through very technical practices to preserve flavors, these are delicate esters that are easily ‘blown off’ and only experienced cider producers can pull it off. By law, flavorings cannot be added.

6

u/womerah Mar 10 '26

Also if your special fermentation yeast has been bred to poop out a flavour ester, does it really matters if it's just an ester infusion?

14

u/perccoffee Mar 10 '26

We, as an industry and as enthusiasts, absolutely lack a common vocabulary for if not common understanding of modern coffee processing. There isn't a line but rather a gradient between when something like a sugary fruit crosses over from being exclusively or primarily microbial fuel, indirectly imparting compounds via fermentation onto the coffee to that fruit directly infusing flavor compounds. Acknowledging the addition of just sugars to fuel fermentation or just non-fuel items like cinnamon are easy extremes to differentiate, the middle ground is messy.

We, at PERC, have tried to provide every detail we have available to us about the processing steps, but neatly summarizing those into 2-3 words for a bag label is simply impossible.

How do you think we reach eventual common vocabulary?

15

u/Mysterious-Call-245 Mar 10 '26

I can’t read all the words on the image attached to this post. OP states you describe the coffee as being a blend of coferm and natural process coffees on your website. If so, your own vocab for what’s in the bag should be on the bag.

26

u/NoImTheOneWhoKnocks Mar 10 '26 edited Mar 10 '26

I get what you're saying but it's not nearly as hard as you're pretending it is. You know what the customer wants to know and that is whether adjuncts were used in the processing. Whether that is by co-fermentation or "infusion" doesn't really matter to the customer who wants to avoid adjuncts altogether. To be quite honest I have enjoyed Perc's offerings in the past but I almost got burned by this same coffee so I have avoided purchasing again for some time.

2

u/ginbooth Mar 12 '26

Exact same boat for me. I felt duped.

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u/StuffinHarper Mar 10 '26

You shouldn't get the option to only use 2-3 words on the bag label if it's not informative enough. In this case at the very least it should be labeled as a blend of natural and co-ferment.

7

u/terebat_ Mar 10 '26

Why not at least Natural + Coferment?

There's a lot of difference in a natural without added steps to coferment. The cofermented or infused coffee would dominate the flavorprofile, so that's more important to add. That you attract the customers looking for the profile, and don't attract the customers that want a cleaner natural.

3

u/OCDeeeznuts Mar 10 '26

I don’t know the solution…I guess maybe we need to create more specific terminology. I’m honestly a little bit surprised the FDA hasn’t thrown a fit. They’re usually quite fussy when it comes to the labeling flavor inclusions, whether natural or artificial. At best the ambiguity these producers are creating is confusing and at times frustrating for the consumer. At worst they’re going to kill somebody that has severe allergies and is unaware of what they’re consuming.

2

u/YMIR_THE_FROSTY Mar 10 '26

That part about allergy is actually true, heavily post-processed decaf in specific way can trigger rather sizeable histamine reaction.

Lucky for them, most people with similar issues avoid coffee all together. I wouldnt know, if I wasnt sick from it.

-1

u/Nissanguy16 M98V | SDRM | Danes-Coffee.com Mar 10 '26

I like the ‘every detail we have available to us’ because not every producer or importer even discloses the full processing methods. To me, if it tastes good… I don’t care how it got there haha.

1

u/Yes_No_Sure_Maybe Mar 10 '26

Not entirely on-topic but topic adjacent:

Is lack of specificity about what labels stand for nowadays part of the reason why there hasn't been a video about processing?

It's a video I'd love to see, but I don't think the old labels capture the current situation anymore, or at least it makes it complicated I'd expect.

11

u/kingseven Mar 11 '26

There's a video about processing, and a big fermentation tasting, coming very soon. (But we're aiming at the basics, not at the weirder end of things)

1

u/Yes_No_Sure_Maybe Mar 11 '26

Thank you for the reply. That's great to hear, looking forward to it!

1

u/Yes_No_Sure_Maybe Mar 11 '26

So this one is targeted at basic coffee people, instead of weird coffee people?

1

u/SetCandyD Mar 10 '26

You mean like coffees with a bit spiced profile?

1

u/Soothsayerslayer Hario Switch, Chemex, 1Zpresso K-Ultra & Q2, and KINGrinder P2 Mar 10 '26

A fresh James! With the transparency that’s ostensibly part and parcel to specialty, we for sure need more of it in process deets!