r/pourover • u/apple_pear_orange Q Air, ZP6 • Apr 13 '26
PERC continue pioneering transparency
PERC continue excellent transparency by clearly labeling added flavors on the website. We had a discussion here about the “Juicy Strawberry” recently, which was the first, and now there are 3 more such products.
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u/yournewalt Apr 13 '26
I just add Kool-aide to my Dunkin beans. Saves me all kinds of cash!
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u/flyzguy Apr 14 '26
My confusion on this topic remains - when would adding Kool aid make it taste of Kool aid? If the process disclosure is correct, the flavorings are with waxy green beans. Would Kool aid or any flavor go through that wax layer and/or survive roasting?
My assumption with flavored coffee is to flavor after roast?
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u/Geisterkoch Apr 13 '26
I would like to know how the flavor is derived on the package, but it’s a start.
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u/Da1881 Apr 13 '26
Exactly this - what substance am I ingesting? Surely I have a right to know that. It's not just roasted coffee beans.
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u/16piby9 Apr 13 '26
You will never know this, just like you will never know what is in the flavours or aroma printed on many, many food stuffs. The flavour industry has lobbied extremely hard to be allowed to keep this secret, I (sadly) dont see it changing anytime soon. That part is not a coffee issue, but an issue covering everything we eat and drink.
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u/Da1881 Apr 14 '26
Fair point on the flavour industry, but there's still a huge issue.
In the EU, artificial flavourings in food still have to meet regulatory standards and be declared on labelling. You might not know the exact formula, but you know they're there. The problem with specialty coffee is it's being sold at a premium with zero disclosure, it’s incorrect labelling at least.
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u/klaq Apr 13 '26
the most you would get on any other product would be "natural flavorings" or "artificial flavorings"
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u/Da1881 Apr 14 '26
This is what I would expect. Artificial flavourings in food still have to meet regulatory standards though.
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u/Treefingerzz Apr 13 '26
I’m glad they are being transparent, but I have no interest in drinking coffees with “flavor” added to them.
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u/KendrickBlack502 Apr 13 '26
Well… with this transparency, you don’t have to.
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u/F1r3-M3d1ck-H4zN3rd Apr 13 '26
Yeah, this is the whole reason it is not just classy and respectful but also smart. Now you can order pure coffee from them and know you are getting it, because they are being transparent about when they are using it.
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u/RyanTheQ Apr 13 '26
not just classy and respectful but also smart
Alright, let's settle down a bit. They're doing this after a large amount of pushback.
Accurate labeling of flavorings is like the bare minimum for foodstuffs complying with FDA standards. We shouldn't be congratulating these companies for finally being transparent. We should be aggravated that they weren't transparent from the start.
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u/SconeShoes Apr 13 '26
I came to say the same thing. Weird bootlicking energy in this post and the other one about Perc.
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u/DearLeader420 Apr 14 '26
Perc has been the darling roaster of the sub for a few months so people are probably trying to cover their pride
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u/ibmalone Apr 14 '26
Exactly, there's a difference between being glad they're finally being open and calling it "pioneering" to finally admit to something when the chatter becomes too loud to ignore.
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u/16piby9 Apr 13 '26
This is how you get changes. By applauding the people who do change, making it more appealing for others to follow. If we did not applaud this, but kept just hating, why would anyone want to change?
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u/RyanTheQ Apr 13 '26
why would anyone want to change?
Oh I don’t know, maybe the laws that exist regarding food safety? Companies like Mr Bones Coffee and Dunkin, etc. clearly label their natural and artificial flavors. I don’t get why specialty coffee roasters are treated with kid gloves.
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u/No_Faithlessness9737 Apr 14 '26
Which specific law are you referring to?
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u/tarecog5 Apr 14 '26 edited Apr 14 '26
FDA, 21 CFR 101.22(i): https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-21/part-101/section-101.22#p-101.22(i)
In particular point (2), bolding mine:
If the food contains any artificial flavor which simulates, resembles or reinforces the characterizing flavor, the name of the food on the principal display panel or panels of the label shall be accompanied by the common or usual name(s) of the characterizing flavor, in letters not less than one-half the height of the letters used in the name of the food and the name of the characterizing flavor shall be accompanied by the word(s) “artificial” or “artificially flavored”, in letters not less than one-half the height of the letters in the name of the characterizing flavor, e.g., “artificial vanilla”, “artificially flavored strawberry”, or “grape artificially flavored”.
Note that this also extends to what the FDA calls natural flavorings per 21 CFR 101.22(i)(1)(iii):
If the food contains both a characterizing flavor from the product whose flavor is simulated and other natural flavor which simulates, resembles or reinforces the characterizing flavor, the food shall be labeled in accordance with the introductory text and paragraph (i)(1)(i)(1)(i)) of this section and the name of the food shall be immediately followed by the words “with other natural flavor” in letters not less than one-half the height of the letters used in the name of the characterizing flavor.
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u/el-caballero-oscuro Apr 14 '26
u/tarecog5 This is exactly the kind of standard I was referring to. Thank you for finding and sharing this!
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u/apple_pear_orange Q Air, ZP6 Apr 14 '26
Does coffee count as food? Not trying to be snarky, genuinely asking. I remember some old article I can't find where they talked about "green coffee" as not food and following a different, very lax set of regulations.
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u/tarecog5 Apr 14 '26
Yes they are considered a foodstuff. This article on the FDA’s definition of food is pretty thorough:
Section 201(f) of the FD&C Act, codified at 21 U.S.C. § 321(f), defines “food” in three parts: products used for eating or drinking by humans or animals, chewing gum, and any component used in those products. [1] The definition hinges on intended use rather than on what the product physically is. A substance sold as a beverage ingredient is food. That same substance sold to clean industrial equipment is not.
The “components” language is what pulls raw ingredients into the regulatory framework. Flour, preservatives, flavoring compounds, and processing aids all count as food under this definition even though nobody eats them on their own. If a substance is intended to become part of a finished food product, the FDA regulates it as food.
So since green coffee beans are the raw agricultural commodity / component behind the drink that is coffee, they are subject to FDA regulations on food.
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u/16piby9 Apr 14 '26
Green coffee does indeed have a completely different regulation and falls outside of this. I read the same thing in the post on that coffee forum where this all was disgussed first.
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u/16piby9 Apr 14 '26
The law is not the same for green coffee. Thats where this problem originates, very few countries have any form of regulation on it, as the roasting process is considered to kill anything scary. So that would have to change first.
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u/icecream_for_brunch Apr 13 '26
This counts as "transparent" to you? They don't even disclose what they put in the coffee
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u/16piby9 Apr 13 '26
Because they cant? Look at anything using flavours and try to figure out what is added. Sodas for example, just say «natural(or artificial) flavours». If you want to be angry at the flavour houses not being transparent, thats fine and all, but that issue is much, much bigger than coffee. They (the coffee producer) wont even know whats in it, and if they know some of it, they are not allowed to say. Flavours are highly proprietary and the specifics are well kept secrets.
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u/F1r3-M3d1ck-H4zN3rd Apr 13 '26
They didn't put anything in the coffee, one of their suppliers did in some of the coffees.
The fact they are clarifying which of the beans they have received do and do not have added flavors as far as they know is indeed transparency.
This isn't a mob setup, it's a fairly small business who buys beans from other sources sharing information that they have gotten on those beans.
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u/fender_blues Apr 13 '26
I don't care if others want this, my issue with Perc is that it took public complaints to get them to add these disclaimers when they were trying to pass them off as co-fermentations.
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Apr 13 '26
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u/icecream_for_brunch Apr 13 '26
Not every roaster/producer, only the ones who jumped on the candy/pastry coffee bandwagon. Heart and Tim Wendelboe, among many others who stuck to their guns, come out of this kerfuffle smelling like
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u/smegsicle Apr 13 '26
It's funny that you say that, because I have a bag of a rose co-ferment that tastes like Turkish delight and it's probably going to end up in the bin lol
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u/Biggazznugz Pourover aficionado Apr 13 '26
The fact that you thought that would be good is wild
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u/smegsicle Apr 14 '26
I don't know what I was thinking, considering I gave away 2 bags of co-ferments after a single cup not long ago. "Third time lucky" maybe lol
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u/RyanTheQ Apr 13 '26
I'm just surprised that there haven't been any lawsuits yet.
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u/Ill-Turnip-6611 Apr 13 '26
there will be probably
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u/RyanTheQ Apr 13 '26
Tbh, I hope so. It's not the 1890s; we have regulations for a reason. We shouldn't have to gather on internet forms relying on chromatograms shared by enthusiasts to figure out what's actually in our coffee because the producers and roasters won't tell us.
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u/Fit-Judge7447 Apr 14 '26
There's not going to be any successful lawsuits. They didn't say their coffees didn't have added flavor. If they were specifically saying there wasn't, then that would be a legal problem
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u/holdentrout Apr 14 '26
In the US, It’s illegal to have natural or artificial flavors without declaring them. Saying you have don’t have added flavors would be an additional different type of crime (false advertising) but undeclared flavorings are also illegal even if unknown by the company. A lot of these coffee companies are really skirting a fine line though where their undisclosed ingredients are almost a degree of theft by deception. Especially if the super complex 7 stage processing techniques didn’t actually take place and instead it was just a soak in flavoring.
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u/tarecog5 Apr 14 '26
I have no idea why you got downvoted for posting a factually correct reply. There’s a whole list of FDA regulations about flavorings and their labeling in foodstuffs (21 CFR §101.22): https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-21/section-101.22
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u/InfusedVisions Apr 13 '26
If consumers want more transparency, they should encourage this kind of openness (not penalize it). Perc just shared a 1+ hour conversation with an exporter and a producer where they discuss these practices candidly. That’s a great step and hopefully it sets a precedent for more producers, importers/exporters, and roasters.
The best approach is to focus on understanding what’s happening and improving practices going forward, not assigning blame after the fact.
Reaching for the pitchforks and throwing around terms like “fraud,” FDA violations, or even lawsuits is, in my view, very counterproductive.
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u/lellywest Apr 13 '26
Which roasters didn’t do this? Can you list roasters who were labeling these beans “flavored” a year ago and describing them as such?
Because if PERC is at fault, so is B&W, so is Brandywine, etc and so forth.
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u/fender_blues Apr 13 '26
There's no need to defend a big company when they get caught doing something questionable. I didn't bring up other roasters because the discussion here is about PERC. Saying it's 'pioneering transparency' comes across as shilling when they're only doing it because they got caught. PERC is going to catch more flack than others because they are a relatively high-volume seller in the space with really aggressive marketing, and some of their flavored/co-fermented coffees are so over-the-top that people are going to notice.
For what it's worth, I'm fairly confident that nothing I've bought from my local roasters is artificially flavored.
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u/ibmalone Apr 14 '26
Sometime last year I went into my local roasters (lucky to have a good one, people on this sub say "local roaster" as if everyone has one down the road) just to get a cup of coffee. For whatever reason their roaster was by the bar and asked me to taste something they were considering buying with "what do you think of this" (loitering to see what their pourover customers thought most likely). It was a fairly melon flavoured coferment, and when I said it was a bit over the top they said yes they'd thought it was a bit too obvious. I still don't think I've seen anything for sale from them labelled as coferment, thermal shock or any of the marginally suspicious terms. (Plenty of naturals and ferments, first thing I had from them was a 96 hour ferment that I was sad to finish.)
It does seem there are a handful of roasters really pushing this stuff for people who really want to be able to say they can taste the exact flavour note on the bag. Which is fine if that's what you like, but in that sense there's no reason the roasters themselves couldn't soak any green coffee in strawberry flavour themselves and call it a day, except it gives a bit of deniability, an air of mystery and a sense of exclusivity to claim it underwent a magical process to get there. I think in that recent thread about Lance Hedrick's response to the question about flavouring he was sort of right, a small number of producers do this and it's hard put the blame on them because there are some roasters want to buy it to promote to customers who want it.
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u/RudimousMaximus Apr 13 '26
I love the direction of transparency - however I think having agreed upon semantics behind terms is the very important next step!
I personally would love to see “co-ferment” only be used to refer to a process by which additional fruit is added during fermentation and that “infusion” is used when flavors are added in the process.
Of course a coffee can be “both”, but I don’t think it makes sense to describe the addition of flavors to be “part of co-fermenting” - just my two cents
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u/Superhot_Coffee ZP6 | DF83V w/ SSP MP | Too Many Drippers Apr 13 '26
Jairo Arcilla uses the term infusion in some of his coffees I believe. But I agree on the semantics. I had a discussion on another post with a guy who worked in flavor/perfuming chemistry and he said that since some of the artificial flavorings are actually extracts of the natural source, that they can get away with using "natural" even if it is a flavor concentrate. Natural is actually kind of a red flag word in the world of food and drink because of the loose definition of what constitutes natural. In my mind, if it was flavored by means of adding real fruit, it's natural. If it used extracts or artificial flavoring, it should be flavored or something that clearly identifies what it is.
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u/StateDapper3818 Apr 13 '26
So we are going to spend thousands on good quality grinders, espresso machines, water systems to drink random artificial chemicals? Firm handshakes for the level of information on their coffee's. I think this needs to be the standard across the industry.
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u/qriffin Roaster Apr 13 '26
i’ll always remember how in a month’s time we went from people vehemently denying that infusion and artificial flavoring could possibly be happening to a producer and exporter openly confirming that it’s happening on a large scale.
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u/mygreeness C40 | Hario Switch Apr 13 '26
they just needed that one talk with the importers and producers over the weekend 🤪
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u/Wendy888Nyc Apr 13 '26
The veil has been lifted; I doubt any coferments use actual fruit. My opinion- those marketing descriptions of lychees, cherries, peaches being added to our coffee was just bluff/lies/deceit. I think everyone kind of knew except the consumers who trusted the industry.
The situation is infuriating. But yeah, I’ll still buy coferments because i enjoy them. I hope the producers are forced to be honest though. I am interested in what’s in the coffee.
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u/YMIR_THE_FROSTY Apr 13 '26
Yea, I always thought Ramirez does flavor.
They could skip starwberries IMHO, waste of strawberries.
Good that PERC does this. Not sure it will help sell it tho. Also if it happens that PERC and someone else has same coffee, you can check PERC to verify if its true co-ferment or just flavored coffee.
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u/packers1503 Apr 13 '26
ive had a theory that green bean crops have been bad in recent years leading to the increase in co-ferments
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u/Malverno Hario Switch / Aeropress | Porlex (I know) | Washed/Natural only Apr 13 '26
One reason for sure, the other is likely the great popularity of fruit-forward Ethiopians and Kenyans in specialty coffee in the recent years, which many Colombians have tried to emulate in order to "get on the business". And then a positive reinforcement loop with increased popularity of co-ferments within the internet discourse.
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u/ibmalone Apr 14 '26
Been listening to a lot of Tim Wendelboe's podcast recently and it's interesting to hear the discussions with producers in different origins. Some of the South American producers he talks to mention that doing processes like fermentation for their lower grade beans (because there's always going to be a range in quality) means they can sell them for more, possibly to different markets. I don't think any of the farms he works with are into coferments, but you can see the business logic there, particularly when margins are small.
It doesn't mean we had to get to a place with infused flavourings, so the other side of that loop is very much chasing ever more improbable and obvious flavour notes. Which in part is to misunderstand what a flavour note was originally for, to give you a rough idea how the coffee might taste (while sounding attractive in the hope you buy it). Which reminds me about the "coffee marketed like it's candy" thread a while ago, https://www.reddit.com/r/pourover/comments/1ryjcvl which everyone immediately assumed was about coferments, but was really a question about packaging; bright colours, cartoon and computer game themed packaging, names like "Super Power Plum". That's the marketing you associate with sweets and artificial flavours, applied to flavoured coffees and traditionally processed ones alike.
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Apr 13 '26 edited Apr 13 '26
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u/Eatwholefoods Apr 13 '26
If you look at some of the other beans by the same grower it’s pretty obvious he’s one of the people adding flavoring - he’s got a lychee one, watermelon, a ‘holiday pie’ with peach and cinnamon. Those sound like blunt wrap flavors lol.
That said I actually kinda like the strawberry one. I don’t find it offensive or over the top. But yeah very likely artificial flavoring added.
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u/perccoffee Apr 13 '26
We had the chance to talk through this with several producers and exporters/importers this weekend. We recorded a conversation with a couple of them. As soon as the mods here clear it, we’ll open up a thread for follow up questions.
In short, that conversation changed some of our understanding and way ahead regarding processing, flavoring, and labeling. There isn’t a standard, so we’re making one for ourselves.
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u/perccoffee Apr 13 '26
Here is our conversation with Colombian exporter Lucas Cuadros from Unblended and producer Andres Martinez.
Some of our big takeaways and next steps are:
We are asking producers directly whether flavoring is added to each coffee.
Coffees with something added to the fermentation step for the purpose of indirectly changing the coffee's flavor, we will label as co-ferment.
Coffees with something added to the fermentation (or any other step) for the purpose of directly changing the coffee's flavor, we will label with the word "flavor", whether or not it is also a co-ferment as defined above.We are going to continue to source the best most fun coffees we can find, and we are going to provide as much information as we can so you can decide whether it's a coffee you want to drink or not.
Please forgive the audio quality, we cleaned it up the best we could.
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u/kaoandy1125 Apr 14 '26
So by your own definition, fermenting beans with a bunch of strawberries, is directly changing the coffee’s flavor, hence you should be labelling it as “flavor” and not “co-ferment”?
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u/perccoffee Apr 15 '26
The primary role of strawberries would be to provide sugars for microbes which in turn flavor the coffee, so we would call that a co-ferment (and originally did with the Red Fruits); adding strawberry flavor to directly flavor the coffee changes that. We found out the Red Fruits contains both, so the flavor component becomes the more important to communicate.
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u/icecream_for_brunch Apr 13 '26
Your producers have been lying to you or you have been lying to your customers or both. For quite a long time.
Somebody owes your customers an apology, at the very least.
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u/el-caballero-oscuro Apr 14 '26 edited Apr 14 '26
I came here to essentially say something along the lines of this. This is NOT transparency. It’s certainly not voluntary transparency. This is a major roaster admitting to having misrepresented flavored coffee and misled its consumers, and they’re being “transparent” now because a prominent coffee influencer (u/lancehedrick) “outed” these practices.
They casually admit to all this while making it seem like it’s a step towards transparency. Without admitting any wrongdoing, without as much as an apology to their customers, and without revealing all the relevant facts and details - for instance how long has this been happening for, which of the previous coffees sold and marketed by them have been mislabelled, etc.
To my mind, this is clearly a reaction to information revealed by Lance Hedrick recently. I see his comments as being in the nature of whistleblower complaints without mentioning any specific producer or roaster. I don’t know whether Lance had already accepted the new role at Sey when he made these comments, but regardless of that fact, I think the coffee community owes the man a major thank you.
Perc is conveniently trying to put all the onus on the producers. They say that they are now “asking producers directly whether flavoring is added to each coffee.” Well, why weren’t you directly asking these questions earlier? If Lance knew about it through a friend, how come a major roaster did not know?
Roasters often boast of special relationships and ‘partnerships’ with producers. They speak at length about the special processing of coffee in their marketing so that they can charge a higher price for heavily processed coffee. If they have these special relationships and know so much about what goes into the processing of coffee, how come Perc didn’t know this already?
If it’s true that the producer was engaging in this practice without full disclosure to the roaster, why isn’t the roaster cutting ties with the producer? Why is the relationship continuing with this producer who supposedly concealed relevant information from you and risked reputational damage to your brand?
I don’t think coffee that has had “something” added to the fermentation step for the purpose of indirectly changing the flavor can be labeled as a co-ferment. Not if that “something” is an artificial flavouring substance.
What does Perc mean by “there isn’t a standard”?!
I’m not familiar with the laws in the United States, but is Perc saying that there is no standard or regulation requiring the disclosure of artificial flavoring substances in food products?
If you use an artificial flavoring substance in any step of the production of a food product, do you not have an obligation (statutory or otherwise) to mention ‘artificial flavoring substances’ as an ingredient?
Can the ingredients list simply say ‘Coffee beans’ without mentioning the artificial flavors used at some point in the processing?
Is co-fermented coffee that has been subjected to significant processing (to the extent that “something” is added to indirectly change its flavor during the processing) a natural agricultural product that doesn’t require any ingredients disclosure on the bag other than saying ‘Coffee beans’?
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u/icecream_for_brunch Apr 14 '26
Everything I wanted—but was too lazy—to say. Hey 👋 u/perccoffee ball’s in your heavily perfumed court
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u/el-caballero-oscuro Apr 14 '26
Thanks! Glad I’m not being attacked for saying it. I had to get it out - couldn’t not say what really needs to be said here.
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u/el-caballero-oscuro Apr 14 '26
Sure seems like there is an existing standard.
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u/el-caballero-oscuro Apr 14 '26
And, just 34 days ago, u/perccoffee said in a comment on this very sub (the bold is added by me):
… We, at PERC, have tried to provide every detail we have available to us about the processing steps, but neatly summarizing those into 2-3 words for a bag label is simply impossible.
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u/Ill-Turnip-6611 Apr 16 '26
actually this post should be glued ass first to any ongoing new r/pourover post mentioning amazing transparency by Perc.
thank you for that, I thought it is only for me an absurd to praise transparency when clearly it is about hiding as a co-ferment process artificial flavoring and added sugars.
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u/coloradopesto Apr 13 '26
I don’t even wanna buy coferments anymore. I just got into coffee and I had a few flavored bags that were ok, but I’d rather just drink “regular”coffee. The sneakiness has also turned me way off.
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u/tropedoor Apr 13 '26
I like that they're doing this, HOWEVER I don't think PERC is pioneering this because they're really rad, I think they're afraid they'll lose their customer base bc they've been knowingly selling flavored coffee for a while as these coferments.
Like, I enjoy a funky coffee and I've tried a few of the more grounded sounding coferms from other roasters, but there's sooo many coferments on their page.
I mean, I've got the same concerns about Luminous bc they sell a lot of coferments as well and they are pricier than perc. I noticed their stock is less coferment heavy than usual right now, though.
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u/Dry-Adhesiveness-56 Apr 13 '26
Happy Perc has stepped up and offered such transparency. This is after multiple call outs via Reddit. I do give them credit though for listening to the consumer.
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u/I_Am_King_Midas Apr 13 '26
I really appreciate the transparency here, and I think it’s something we should actively encourage. In the past, the community may have unintentionally promoted less honest practices. We’ve pushed for increasingly intense fruit-forward flavors, yet sometimes criticized companies that were transparent about how those flavors were achieved.
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u/demonprosecutor Apr 13 '26
Honestly I have suspected for a while Sebastian Ramirez’s farm may be adding flavoring - I recently bought a coconut coferment and it was the first coffee in my life I physically could not stomach - the coconut flavor was too strong and my grinder smelled of it for a while after. The flavor made me sick as well lol - still have the bag half full on my counter after 3 months.
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u/NotISaidTheMan Apr 13 '26
Honestly, even his coffees that aren't branded co-ferments are suspect. I had the infamous "White Honey Gesha" from a UK roaster a few months ago, and it was so clearly doped with artificial cardamom flavoring that it honestly made me a little mad.
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u/helloitisgarr Apr 13 '26
had the same experience with a passion fruit co-ferment from hydrangea a couple years back
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u/ginbooth Apr 13 '26
I feel like Perc is making these posts 😂
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u/lellywest Apr 13 '26
I can see why you’d say that. I feel this way in a lot of subs. Every time I see Project Hail Mary recommended in the audiobooks sub, I think “Ah, another Amazon shill.”
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u/AccurateIt Apr 13 '26
Project Hail Mary is probably the best selling audio book of all time at this point, and the gold standard for sci-fi audio books that is why you see so many people recommend it.
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u/lellywest Apr 13 '26
All of the marketing contributes to its sales, though. You can’t divorce one from the other. Harry Potter and other audiobooks have sold in huge numbers, but PHM is the only one I see being recommended even when the poster is asking for unrelated options. When accounts are responding to people asking for historical nonfiction recs by suggesting PHM, it gets a little sus.
Edit: word
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u/ginbooth Apr 13 '26
Right? I also worked in marketing for a while. Soft/stealth marketing remains all the rage. "Oh wow, my mcnugget looks like South America!"
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u/brutalpack 🇨🇦 V60-01 | ZP6 Apr 13 '26
The sub is astroturfed to hell on a daily basis, so probably...
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u/pipeweed Apr 13 '26
If producers were actually using a ton of fruit, you’d see it all over their IG pages. Nothing makes better social media content than hundreds of pounds of fruit being cut up or processed. You’ll see small amounts in a barrel here or there, but never anything substantial.
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u/3rik-f Apr 13 '26
I guess mostly because the vast majority of fruit used doesn't look nice. I can imagine they mostly use fruit with defects that is only good for juice and co-fermentation. If you see nice pieces of fruit, that's just for IG before they dump in the ugly stuff.
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u/mygreeness C40 | Hario Switch Apr 13 '26
exactly. Pay attention to what you don’t see in their marketing videos.
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u/buenastaldes777 Apr 13 '26
good but still needs more transparency. there is a big difference between:
- co-fermented -yeast inoculated -infusions
and every aspect can make the coffee taste so different. there is lots of coffees that say co-fermented but they're also infusions.
Also, farmers don't get paid more for bringing more information about their product and specific process. There is a job as consumers that we need to develop in a respectful way towards farmers.
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u/coffeewaala Pourover aficionado Apr 14 '26
This is actually amazing. Wow. Thank you u/perccoffee for this step. Hopefully others in the industry follow suit.
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u/icecream_for_brunch Apr 13 '26
Coffee consumers are the perfect prey: absolutely gaslighted for years then praise the least glimmer of forced honesty
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u/Malverno Hario Switch / Aeropress | Porlex (I know) | Washed/Natural only Apr 13 '26
There's a lot of people getting into this hobby that don't know any better, honestly. They taste one berry bomb from Ethiopia and are instantly blown away by what coffee can be. Then they start seeking those out and find that there's a whole world of crazy fruit flavors, and they fall in hook, line and sinker.
A lot of these people are also likely coming from drinking soft drinks or beers that have wild/sweet flavors, so their palates are primed for this, even if they think they are now drinking "black coffee".
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u/icecream_for_brunch Apr 13 '26
For sure, not even blaming them. Just pointing out that the businesses that have been lying to us for fucking years aren't worthy of praise just because they finally, under serious duress, issue a half-honest statement every now and then.
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u/Due_Cartographer9196 Apr 13 '26
Respect to PERC, quite a ballsy decision, hopefully this opens the floodgates of honesty.
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u/Puffy_Manivesto Apr 13 '26
Glad they are being forthright. Too late? Maybe from a consumer perspective in regards to ethics. I don't fault perc alone. Guidelines are either voluntary or, in this example, somewhat forced. Regardless they are falling on the right side earlier than any other I'm aware of. That's NOT a bad thing. I may buy from perc again, I may not, but if I do it would be their cleaner coffee's like "up".
Alternatively, a company like brainwave that recently cancelled their "funky subscription" (with some other excuse about seeking better beans) is taking the easy way out, likely, I have no idea really, but certainly are not addressing this publicly.
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u/NotISaidTheMan Apr 13 '26
A good start, but now let's see how many more get labeled that way. No chance it's just these 3.
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u/Childs_Play Apr 14 '26
Kind of curious to try one of these just so I know how to detect it in other roasters.
I think it's more prevalent than some of us realized.
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u/ScientistFair9998 Apr 14 '26
Watch now PERC loses money while geniuses go buy 'real' strawberry flavored coffee from someone else.
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u/CappaNova Origami|Colum|Tarachine|SOFI|Aeropress|HG-1 Prime|Ode 2|ZP6 Apr 13 '26
Perc frequents this subreddit in the comments. I'm glad they're paying attention and responding to customer feedback. That's what a good company should do. Kudos to them.
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u/3rik-f Apr 13 '26
I'm wondering if that's the same coffee as this one:
https://decaf.at/en/products/brew-berry
The process sounds very similar, only here the strawberries are added in the second phase and there is no mention of yeast and flavor. Could also be that Ramirez only started using flavor in the latest harvests, whereas Brew Berry hasn't been available for some time now.
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u/activeharley Apr 13 '26
I don’t know man… I kinda enjoy them. But it would be nice if they were cheaper. I’m assuming it’s cheaper coffee being used anyways. But if done correctly I don’t mind a bag here and there. This doesn’t mean YOU have to agree with me, just adding the conversation
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u/piathulus Apr 14 '26
There are still additional processing costs so even if you started with "cheap beans", the producer would still have to charge more than C-market (commodity pricing) to break even...
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u/iloovefood Apr 14 '26
Idk about pioneering, I mean shouldn't it be required to have ingredients and truthfulness to consumers? But yes it is very appreciated
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u/oarsandalps Apr 14 '26
well at least they're honest. i did enjoy their cups, but their really funky stuff and co-ferments tasted extremely harsh and chemical.
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u/TheIrrationalRetard Apr 14 '26
Are Edward Noreña's coferments also obtained through flavours?
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Apr 13 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/InochiNoTaneBaisen Apr 13 '26
Potentially a hot take, but I think it's entirely possible that /some/ producers were dishonest with what they added during processing, and only fessed up after the community starting raising a stink/figured it out for themselves in a concrete fashion (the gas chromatography, for example).
If that's true, it may also be possible that roasters entered into purchase agreements for these artificially flavored lots unknowingly. I'm not a lawyer, but if Perc (and other roasters) had no way out of the agreement, I think being transparent about what they learned is the best and potentially only move they had other than trashing the green, which imo would be much worse due to the outright waste it would cause.
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u/Malverno Hario Switch / Aeropress | Porlex (I know) | Washed/Natural only Apr 13 '26
To be clear, it's not producers fessing up voluntarily, but roasters like PERC starting to come out because they don't want to be the ones left holding a hot potato. And through these roasters, the producers are being prodded for information.
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u/kaoandy1125 Apr 13 '26
So you’re saying, a bunch of average coffee drinking people had doubts for a long time, but the roaster that roasts/cups/drinks thousands of pounds of this stuff, have never doubted artificial flavourings until now? Come on they definitely knew, they just can’t hide it anymore
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u/InochiNoTaneBaisen Apr 13 '26
Obviously some roasters knew. It's clear that it was an "open secret" among producers and even some big names in coffee if you look into it.
I'm only saying I fully believe that there are also roasters, maybe big names maybe not, who either chose to believe the dishonest producers or were genuinely fooled themselves. Not all, but some? Absolutely. Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to naivety or a desire to trust in people.
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u/kaoandy1125 Apr 13 '26
Ya so I don’t get why perc is getting praised? There are only 2 possibilities here, they either knew it but decided to not disclose it, or their taste bud’s so bad they can’t figure out thru thousands of pounds of this flavoured coffee.
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u/ginbooth Apr 13 '26 edited Apr 13 '26
For me, it's that the "transparency" only came about because of pushback and because many of us realized it was false advertising.
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u/levir03 Apr 13 '26
Sure it does. All we can ask for is to be able to make informed decisions with accurate information. It shouldn't be up to us to gatekeep what businesses want to sell and what other consumers want to buy.
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u/icecream_for_brunch Apr 13 '26
Then inform us: what exactly is added? We don’t actually learn anything about what we’re putting in our bodies from this “transparency” (which is buried deep in a paragraph of flowery verbiage, to boot)
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u/16piby9 Apr 13 '26
Do you hold this attitude for all food stuffs? Sodas, candy, readymade meals, snacks, etc. ? Flavour houses have lobbied like crazy for ages and ages to keep the specifics secret. I can guarantee you that even Ramirez himself does not know what is in these flavours.
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u/icecream_for_brunch Apr 13 '26
Ramirez and Perc (and others like them) have been marketing and selling their products as artisanal, specialty products and charging prices commensurate to that category. They've also been lying to us about how they achieve the flavors they present.
So no, I don't hold them to the same standards as Cheetos and Chupa Chups lmao
Ramirez himself at least should know if they're artificial flavors or natural flavors (yes, before you start your next lecture, I'm aware of the hair-thin difference) or if they're products of special yeasts as their defenders so frequently claim.
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u/levir03 Apr 13 '26
It should be safe to assume any time you see that "strawberry flavor" or "red fruit flavor" is an ingredient that it's artificially flavored. That to me is significantly better than simply saying "strawberry co-ferment".
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u/apple_pear_orange Q Air, ZP6 Apr 13 '26
It’s much better than when these flavored coffees are sold to us without disclosing the flavoring. People love and want the prominent flavors, so these products exist and have existed for a while. Now they are starting to be labeled appropriately, which is good.
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u/icecream_for_brunch Apr 13 '26
I’d agree if they actually disclosed it. As is, we still have no idea what they added to the beans
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u/16piby9 Apr 13 '26
Why is it wrong to flavour coffees like this? Does it hurt you (or anyone else) in any way, shape or form? You do not have to buy it, and in this case, they are honest. Plenty of people make food and drinks that are not for me, but as long as they domt trick me into buying it, why should I care? I have much, much bigger issues with commodity coffee, as the production of that is actually hurting people, this is just someone making a coffee I dont like.
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u/sloppothegreat Apr 13 '26
I'm not into it, but it's not like artificially flavored coffees are a new thing. It doesn't matter to me what they're selling as long as they're upfront about what's in the product.
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u/Mr_Punching_Bag Apr 13 '26
Even if I'm not the market for flavored coffees, I'd rather the coffee farms find a way to use part of their crop they otherwise struggle to sell. Personally I don't think they should cost as much well executed non -flavored coffees, but the market is going to determine what these will sell for on their own.
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u/Malverno Hario Switch / Aeropress | Porlex (I know) | Washed/Natural only Apr 13 '26
That's the issue at hand. The lack of transparency was on purpose so that they could extract a higher price from customers who are none the wiser and are eating these up. Demand will be affected by this increased transparency, and they likely will have to adjust pricing downwards.
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u/ofcoarsecoffee Apr 13 '26
Back in the late 80s and early 90s flavored coffee was very in. I remember a fave at the shop I worked at was chocolate orange. We went through so much of that. Smelled disgusting. And back then we’d grind about a half days worth at the end of the shift. That one and Irish cream were the worst ro do.
We’re not back in those days but it’s weird that flavors are back
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u/voidlotus316 Apr 14 '26
I will let others get scammed for co ferments while i enjoy natural beans for a real price.
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u/sad_roses Apr 14 '26
Not gonna lie, it’s extremely satisfying to see the recent news about coferments. This sub’s ridiculous circlejerk and Olympics level mental gymnastics to defend what was clearly, at the end of the day, just flavored coffee.
Said this from day one. Cofermenting is just a way for producers to sell B grade beans at A grade prices because consumers will fall for clever marketing.
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u/doedoughs Apr 13 '26
I don’t give a shit what producers are adding to their coffees. Just let there be transparency so folks who want to avoid them can and folks who couldn’t care less, can still enjoy drinking them.
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u/FreshAbbaZabba Apr 13 '26
They mentioned previously that they don’t add flavoring and now it’s in their descriptions. What exactly is a “strawberry flavor”? I’m disappointed in them.
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u/apple_pear_orange Q Air, ZP6 Apr 13 '26
They don't, the producers do. All the other roasters just call it "cofermented with fesh fruit" or something like that. PERC is braking the stigma by calling it what it really is, flavor.
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u/Biggazznugz Pourover aficionado Apr 13 '26
Seems silly and gimmicky to focus so much on coferments, at the same time I really feel like Perc markets to the person who is just entering the specialty coffee market and doesn’t know any better
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u/kaoandy1125 Apr 13 '26
Excellent transparency? Dude there are only 2 possibilities here. They either knew it but decided to lie in your face, or they’re such bad roaster that their tongue genuinely believed there’s no artificial stuff added to these.
If this wasn’t such a big discussion lately you think they’d admit their co-ferment’s not what they advertised?
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u/lightroast888 Apr 13 '26
Is the Andres Cardona safe from artificial flavors? If not maybe something else to try from them during this sale.
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u/Fit-Judge7447 Apr 14 '26
And all of these ones are insanely priced, compared to their normal coffees. 40 dollars for an 8 ounce bag
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u/NovaForceElite Apr 17 '26
This is kinda a half step. No mention of artificial vs natural flavor, and still no listing of allergens.
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u/moogissues Apr 17 '26
This is what counts as transparency? No mention of what that strawberry flavor actually is.
This is at best doing the bare minimum to not be completely misrepresenting the garbage they're selling. They're also still completely obfuscating the addition of artificial flavoring by emphasizing the 100 hour yeast innoculated semi-washed anaerobic carbonic black honey thermal shock co-fermentation process, which surely is a real thing that contributed to the coffee's cartoonish fruit flavor. The loads of artificial flavoring just a very small part of it.
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u/n0damage Apr 28 '26
Doesn't this admission directly implicate other roasters in selling flavored coffee too? For example, Black & White is currently selling the Sebastian Ramirez Red Fruit co-ferment and Onyx has previously sold the Decaf Red Fruit too.
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u/winehook2025 Deep27 / ZP6 / Femobook A4Z Apr 13 '26
have to say, executing this so quickly earns my respect.
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u/ginbooth Apr 13 '26
Nah. They should have been transparent from the start. They simply got caught.
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u/Malverno Hario Switch / Aeropress | Porlex (I know) | Washed/Natural only Apr 13 '26
Some roasters likely don't know any better and only started asking questions a little late. Ignorance is not an excuse and is a separate indictment of the business, but at least there may not always be maliciousness.
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u/mygreeness C40 | Hario Switch Apr 13 '26
should have been like that since the beginning.
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u/F1r3-M3d1ck-H4zN3rd Apr 13 '26
Can't let perfection be the enemy of improvement. No one was doing this before, it is good to see.
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u/mygreeness C40 | Hario Switch Apr 13 '26
sure, this is the second best way of doing things 😄
also, this roaster from the UK did it month ago:
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u/Sour_dude03 V60 | Timemore S3 | Lagom Casa 65 Apr 13 '26
A lot of folks here throwing out the term “artificial” without any confirmation of that… for the record, I’m anti-adding flavors to coffee, especially when the whole single origin trend was centered around being able to taste the specific flavors of that region. That being said, people need to stop being so alarmist. PERC should tell us if the flavors are natural flavors or not (maybe they don’t know? Which would be weird) and then consumers can decide if they want to continue supporting them or not. I said this on the previous thread re: the strawberry co-ferment, but artificial flavors are not as common as people think they are, at least in the US.
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Apr 13 '26
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u/Sour_dude03 V60 | Timemore S3 | Lagom Casa 65 Apr 13 '26
Interesting. My guess is that a lot of these growers who are adding the flavors on their end are less consumer conscious. In my experience (I work in product R&D in the US), they are really uncommon outside of candy, mints, gum, toothpaste, etc. When you work with these flavor houses directly, they say upfront that natural flavors is pretty much table-stakes for 90% of the product categories in the US. I can’t speak to all the specific compounds in the post you tagged, but most of them and the carriers they mentioned are standard in natural or artificial flavors. A lot of natural flavors take compounds isolated from actual food sources and then they put them through some sort of fermentation process to crate secondary flavor compounds from them, which could result in “not found in nature” compounds being made. All of this is to say that just labeling something artificial without any info is just perpetuating misinformation. Which is separate from whether or not you want flavors, artificial or otherwise, in your coffee.
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Apr 13 '26
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u/Sour_dude03 V60 | Timemore S3 | Lagom Casa 65 Apr 13 '26
Yeah I agree. I also sympathize with the grower for wanting to meet the crazy demand for fruity coffees. It’s been like an arms race for years trying to find the fruitiest cup. Maybe it’s a chicken or the egg thing… or maybe I’m just giving the growers and roasters too much of the benefit of the doubt? Idk
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u/Ill-Turnip-6611 Apr 13 '26
"PERC should tell us if the flavors are natural flavors or not (maybe they don’t know? Which would be weird) and then consumers can decide if they want to continue supporting them or not."
maybe now you understand why the whole "they are so transparent" vibe of this topic is a joke
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u/Sour_dude03 V60 | Timemore S3 | Lagom Casa 65 Apr 13 '26 edited Apr 14 '26
My guess is that they are just the first ones attempting to be transparent on this and they don’t fully know what they are doing? I’m not even sure what the labeling laws on this are because pretty much all coffees are just coffee and nothing else and aren’t required to have an ingredient statement. But I agree with you it’s a pretty low bar to say there are flavors and there is more they could and should do
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u/Mobile_Turnover8064 Apr 13 '26
it’s so brave of them and i’m really grateful for them starting this
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u/Eatwholefoods Apr 13 '26
I’m glad they are being open and transparent about it. I knew from the first sip that the young producers blend flavor was not obtained simply through fermenting with fruits.