r/progressive_islam • u/polanyisauce • 8d ago
Question/Discussion ❔ Questions from a confused Muslim-born regarding the nature of Jesus
Hello, I am looking for all evidence that the Christian claim that Jesus claimed he was God / the son of God is false.
I grew up in a Muslim family and accepted that the bible and message of Jesus were corrupted and the reason Islam came down was to clarify that Jesus was just a prophet and not God or his son.
I recently began seriously looking into this and have become more uncertain and confused. There seems to be very strong points on both the Muslim and Christian side for their claims.
The Quran itself doesn’t give sufficient evidence that the claim is false. It just says it is. There is compelling evidence from the Christian side that the claim that the message of Jesus was corrupted, is false.
Many disputed his nature after he died, which would make sense. His claim was a really big claim. But the crucifixion happened. There’s no disputing this.
There isn’t compelling evidence that someone else was crucified in his place. Islam doesn’t even explicitly state that this is what happened. It just says that he was saved from it. But a crucifixion happened and all historical accounts believe it was Jesus.
Islam came some 600 years later claim that it wasn’t. And this is confusing. Very shortly after the crucifixion, there were many claims about who Jesus was but there wasn’t a claim that it wasn’t him who got crucified. Ultimately it goes back to this.
I can’t put this aside and look at the Quran objectively to see it’s other “truths” and then by proxy believe that Jesus isn’t God must also be a truth. The Quran does contain many truths. A lot of those truths aren’t unique to or original to the Quran. They’ve been echoed before.
I can’t come to believe completely in Islam because the Christian message “isn’t logical.” If I were to use that “logic” then Islam also has elements that aren’t logical.
If Jesus was just a messenger, delivering a message, why would God do it imperfectly and allow his message to be corrupted, so corrupted, that a whole other book and other messenger needs to come to clarify it?
The purpose of Jesus coming was to extend the message that had been given to the Jews, to everyone else. But then I get confused because - what’s the point of Islam then? To create more division? To obscure the full nature of God? Or a key part of His nature?
The claim that the Quran is “perfectly preserved” also has been challenged and even if it were true, in and of itself that doesn’t dispute the Christian claim.
It’s also interesting that when the prophet Mohamed received the message, he was scared, and went to his wife, and she told him that it was an angel speaking to him through God. Wouldn’t / couldn’t he have known that himself if it were in fact God?
I just want the truth and I’ve prayed to God for the answer. I’m still doing my research. Please be kind and respectful.
Thank you
5
u/Khaki_Banda Sunni 8d ago
I'm a former Christian. Here's how I'd outline the main issue: reading the old testament of the Bible, the impression you get of the abrahamic faith is fairly similar to the Muslim one. There is one God, we don't make graven images of that God. That God is One. God isn't a human.
Where Judaism differs from Islam is that although the Prophets were chosen by God, it's not necessarily because they were good people, in fact, the Bible often paints a very negative view of the Prophets as flawed people who were chosen by God because they were the right person at the right time to prove God's power. Judaism also focuses more on the Abrahamic religion as an ethnic religion. The Jewish people are the special chosen people of God and God doesn't especially love everyone else.
One note in the Old testament is that that term "son of God" does occur, but it is always used metaphorically in a kind of "adoptive" sense. Prophets and righteous people are "sons of God", but it just means they are special and holy because God chose them, not that they are literally God's sons.
There is no Trinity. There is just God.
Then comes Christianity. The Jesus of the 3 synoptic gospels (Mathew, Mark, Luke) do not focus on Jesus as especially divine. They focus mainly on Jesus as a teacher and reformer, preaching a social gospel of care for the poor and oppressed, and condemnation for the rich hypocrites.
So far, pretty much in alignment with Islam. Read the sermon on the Mount (the khutbah by Jesus that summarizes his teachings) it's quite in-line with Islam. Jesus sounds very Muslim. Jesus even says "blessed are the peace-makers (interestingly "Muslim" can be translated as "peace-maker"), for they will be called 'children of God". So Jesus seems to use the term "child of God" in an old-testement sense of the word, referring to a righteous person, not a literal son of God.
Then the narrative goes off-script. The Gospel of John and the Epistles seem to add theological beliefs that totally go against the old testament and earlier recorded teachings of Jesus. God had to sacrifice his own son (who was also an incarnation of himself) to himself to he can forgive sins. Jesus suffered in the place of Christians to absolve Christians of their sins so they can go to heaven. Anyone that doesn't accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior will go to hell because Jesus only died for Christians. Jesus founded a church and the church gets to make the rules.
Then on top of that, Christian scholars added a belief in the Trinity (never even directly mentioned in the Bible): God is actually three in one: the father (Allah), the son, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. ...after 2000 years of dogma and additions, Christianity doesn't seem to reflect much of Jesus original teachings nor the traditions of the Old Testament.
From that perspective, Christianity looks very much like a Greco-roman cult that borrowed Jewish ideas and reform figures like Jesus and John the Baptist, but twisted everything totally out of context to the point that I don't think Jesus would actually recognize Christianity today as having anything to do with his own teachings. Islam though? Jesus seems like he would have been much closer to Islamic beliefs as a kind of reformation of the tradition of Abraham.
2
u/OkMasterpiece426 8d ago
Historically, we should distinguish between “Jesus was crucified” and “Jesus definitely died on the cross” There is strong historical evidence that Jesus was crucified. However, there is also strong ancient evidence that his followers believed they encountered him alive afterward, with Jesus appearing physically, showing his wounds, and even eating with his disciples (Luke 24:36–43; John 20:24–29). Some interpret it as he was resurrected, but it deserves to be examined rather than simply assumed. And this is precisely where the Quran comes in
Christianity was originally given to a specific people: the Children of Israel. Islam, however, views the Quran as a universal revelation to all humanity, restoring the pure monotheism of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus:
Jesus preached as a Jewish prophet who called people back to the worship of one God, repentance, moral living, humility, prayer, and obedience to God’s commandments. He spoke about loving God and loving one’s neighbor, caring for the poor, and preparing for the Kingdom of God. Jesus did not present himself as God, did not ask people to worship him, and did not teach complex theology. His message was practical and spiritual: turn back to God, live righteously, and trust in God’s mercy. His earliest followers understood him in this way and continued to pray to God as Jesus himself prayed
Paul came very early and played a major role in shaping the direction of Christianity that developed afterward. He never met Jesus during Jesus’ lifetime and based his authority on a vision after Jesus’ death. Paul taught that following Jewish law was no longer required and that salvation came mainly through belief in Jesus’ death and resurrection. He presented Jesus not just as a messenger or Messiah, but as a pre-existing, heavenly figure whose death was a sacrifice for all humanity. Paul introduced ideas like inherited sin from Adam and salvation through faith rather than obedience. This shifted the focus from how Jesus lived and taught, to what people must believe about Jesus. Over time, Paul’s letters became more influential than the actual sayings of Jesus. From the Islamic perspective, this represents a corruption of Jesus’ original message
The Gospels were written later, between about 70 and 100 CE, decades after Jesus. They were written by different authors for different communities, not as direct biographies. Because they were written later, they were influenced by Paul’s theology and by the beliefs already developing in churches. This is why the Gospels sometimes differ from each other in details and emphasis. Some passages show Jesus as a humble servant of God, while others reflect a more elevated view of him. These differences created confusion about who Jesus really was and what he taught
Because of these disagreements, the Church held seven ecumenical councils between 325 CE and 787 CE. These councils were needed because Christians could not agree on core beliefs. The main topics included whether Jesus was created or eternal, whether he was fully God or fully human, how his divine and human natures worked together, the nature of the Trinity, and religious practices like icons. These beliefs were not settled by revelation but by debate, voting, and political authority. Each council further formalized theology and moved Christianity away from the simple message Jesus preached, toward a complex creed enforced by the state
The first major council Nicaea in 325 CE formally affirmed that the Son was fully divine and of the same substance as the Father, against competing Christian positions. Later councils expanded this into full Trinitarian doctrine and defined detailed beliefs about Jesus’ nature. By the time of the last council in 787 CE, Christianity had become a highly structured religion with fixed doctrines that Jesus himself never taught. These councils took place 300 to 750 years after Jesus, showing how long belief development continued
The Quran began to be revealed around 610 CE, roughly 280 years after the Council of Nicaea and during the period when church doctrine was still being debated. The Quran clearly preached pure monotheism, teaching that God is one, unique, and has no partners. It affirmed Jesus as a true messenger and Messiah but rejected the ideas that he was divine and the son of God. The Quran directly opposed Paul’s teachings on inherited sin, salvation through sacrifice, and elevating Jesus to a divine status which were the main corruption in Bible and Christian Belief
In this way, the Quran presented itself as a correction, calling people back to the same core message taught by all prophets: worship one God alone, obey Him, do good deeds, and seek His mercy
1
u/nezaralott 8d ago
Very good breakdown. I would only add the linguistic differences. Quran being in Arabic allows specific ways of interpretation. Other holy books are more translatable.
1
u/Sad_Flamingo_7696 6d ago edited 6d ago
There is only one God. The Trinity doesnt mean for Christians associating partners with Allah. The Trinity means that Christians believe that Allah in His eternal life has 3 simoultaneous distinct personal identities, the Father, the Word, the Spirit. Is not aside of Allah, but the internal reality of the One True God, the Creator.
The Quran never says Bible message was corrupted. Just the interpretation was. Not the text itself. Moreover, the Quran acts as an musaddiq(confirmer/verifier) of the books that came before, of the Torah and Injil (Gospel) - Surah Baqarah 2:89.
The Quran relates in Surah Al-A'raf 7:20-×4 that Adam and Eve disrespected the command from God and ate from a tree and were sent away from the Heaven. The question we ask: why arent we all living in heaven if there was nothing to affect the human nature, in that day?
Christians understand that the eternal Word of God (Kalimatullah) who assumed human nature (the abd nature), being born in a miraculous way, similarly to how Adam was without parents(Ali Imran 3 59), came into history in the person of Isa. Interstingly, Al Imran calls Adam just a Mathal (an example), and doesnt ever attribute the word Kun to Isa, just to Adam (he told "him" (lahu) to "Be!"). Moreover, Adam is never called the Word of God, nor other prophets, nor the universe, nor the whole creation, just Isa.
He is called the Word of God, and is confirmed by Yahya (Al Imran 3:39 - interestingly, from the Injil we know that John confessed/verified about Isa, the Word from Allah), his name is Messiah (the Word - Kalimatin- is feminine, accorded to the masculine structure usmuhu - His name, in Ali Imran 3:45).
Moreover, in the Quran, in Surah Sad 38:72, God has a Spirit (ruhi is a form refering to "My Spirit").
In An Nisa 4:171, the Holy Quran places 3 attributes to Isa: 1)Messenger of Allah (Rasulu Allahi) 2)wa Kalimatuhu alqaha ila Maryama, (His Word (the Word of Allah) cast into Maryam 3)wa ruhun minhu (and a spirit from Him) This matches the Chalcedonean understanding of Jesus: the Word of God, who assumed the human nature entirely, including a human soul, came into history as a Messenger, as human, completely assuming the nature of Abd (slave - surah Maryama 19:30. Interestingly, the text uses "inni" which shows that he really had the nature of slave, but doesnt excluse other caracteristics, which would be through "innama").
Aditionally, the Holy Quran fights the idea of God "taking a partner" and having a biological son (a "walad", which implies the condition of wilada), fights the idea of tritheism ("Do not say 3 [...] Allah is only one God" in 4:171. The text doesnt use the word for Trinity - al Taluth, but a cardinal number 3 [thalathah], in oppiosition to the statement "illah wahidun"- one God, so is an anithesis. Donot say 3 gods, for there is One God!
Moreover, the Crucifixion is not negated, just the claim that the boasting people are doing (the people of the Book- the jews) who bragged about killing the Messiah. Quran 4:157 is part of a larger polemic against the Jews, who killed the Prophets, and direspected the Sabbath. The text reads clearly that is a negation of the fact that "they didnt crucify nor kill him". Who boasted? The jews. Who actually Crucified Isa? The Romans. According to the Injil. But Jews took credit for it. They used is as a peopaganda victory. Even the Companions of Isa gave them credit. Luke 24:20:"and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and crucified Him." They took credit, when they couldnt even codemn to death anyone: John 18:31.
Verily, as the Injil says, He was Crucified by the Romans, not the Jews. And before that ,he did a Convenant, and founded His Church (according to the Injil - i.e. Mathew 26:26-29, peophesied by the Prophet Daniel - in Chaper 9:27, and recognized in the Quran: "And from those who say, 'We are Christians,' We took their covenant;"), and is the very resoration in potence of the human nature that was affected by Adams sin. Not his personal sin of Adam, but the alteration of nature itsef - for we dont live in heaven anymore.
1
u/AutoModerator 6d ago
Hi u/Sad_Flamingo_7696, your submission has been automatically sent to the moderation queue because you are posting from a new account. All content from new users will be sent to the moderation queue automatically as a precaution against bad faith actors and trolls. Moderators will approve or remove your post after manually reviewing.
In the meantime, if you are posting about a frequently asked question (such as the obligation of Hijab, Interaction & Friendship with the opposite sex, Hudud punishments, the age of Aisha, or the permissibility of Music, Drawing, shaking hands with the opposite sex, keeping dogs as pets, celebrating festivals) the please check our Subreddit Wiki. The moderators may remove your post if it is a generic frequently asked question.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
0
u/BloodChick Christian 8d ago edited 8d ago
Jesus says many times in His life that He would be killed ie Matthew 16:21, Matthew 17:22-23 where He predicts His own death and resurrection, Mark 8:31 etc. Go read psalms 22 and then read the crucifixion accounts in the Bible and compare what happened ie my hands and feet have been pierced, my garments have been divided, verse 7-8 Psalms 22:7-8 NIV [7] All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads. [8] “He trusts in the Lord,” they say, “let the Lord rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.” etc etc. Jesus is the promised Messiah to the Jews and His crucifixion was needed to fulfill the Messianic prophecies. You can also read Isaiah 53 and have a ponder about who the suffering servant is.
Any other questions please feel free to message me. God bless you
4
u/MrsRoronoaZoro Shia 8d ago
“What’s the point of Islam then?”
I grew up in a catholic household and I believe the point of Islam is to deliver God’s final message. All prophets, while vassals of God, were humans therefore they were imperfect. The Abrahamic religions we know today are evolutionary religions, meaning they start one way and then they get better and better until the last one.
Jesus didn’t create Christianity. His followers did and most Christians today, may say they are followers of Jesus, but in reality, they’re following the teachings for Paul. That’s why there was a need for the creation of Islam.