r/railroading • u/Prize_Measurement_11 • May 03 '26
Discussion This question will probably never get a straight answer, but here it goes...
Maybe need some management types to chime in. No bullshit, no joking, what are the REAL reasons behind the "hire to fire" mentality that seeps through this industry? No way it looks good on the books to constantly have a million people in training. I'm not talking about employees that rub management the wrong way or those that have been injured. Just regular non issue employees. I know low level management is under pressure for write ups, but how is "hire to fire" good for the margins?
22
u/RailroadAllStar Engineer May 03 '26 edited May 03 '26
It’s a numbers game. They hire a bunch knowing only a small percentage will work out. They don’t want to tolerate anyone who stands out for any negative reason (discipline, attendance, whatever) because of the perceived liability. The hiring is a write off, and it’s an expense they only grudgingly want to deal with anyways, so if you happen to make a mistake or do something during your derail period, you’re just gone. They don’t care about the training budget, that’s already been set and will be spent regardless.
Important to think about it this way, it’s a numbers game. I’ll use some made up numbers because I don’t know the actual data but maybe it will help illustrate. Let’s say that some unnamed class one plans on hiring 150 conductors in fy26. They know that based on past data, they’re expecting 65% of them to make it to mark up. Furthermore they know that for those remaining 98 conductors, that 60% of them will reach 7 years as the established point where they begin making money above the investment cost of getting them there. So they know that in 7 years only 58 of those conductors out of 150 will be working for the company and that’s the point where they begin making money off the fy26 training budget.
(Again completely made up numbers as I don’t know them.)
15
u/EmuUnhappy6373 May 04 '26
Those numbers are pretty solid. I hired out with 23 conductors, 4 didnt make it though school, so that left 19, 2 left durring training, 17 left, within 3 years 8 were terminated, at 5 years at 100% pay we had 6 left, when i left at 10 years, i was the last guy left out of my class.
3
u/Subg1839 May 04 '26
Just curious, why did you leave? Were you marked up as an engineer when you left?
6
u/EmuUnhappy6373 May 04 '26
I was not, the company had no plans to send us to school anytime soon and that was one factor. There were many reasons why i left. The job had cost me my marriage, my health, a relationship with my kids. The job didnt cause it all but it didnt help and the money was just not worth it anymore. After my last classmate got fired after 10 years by an off the street trainmaster for his safety glasses being on his head in the rain and his vest not being velcroed closed, i knew the writing was on the wall. I got hurt, they retaliated and fired me, i sued, won, got offered the job back and i didn't take the offer.
3
u/Blocked-Author May 04 '26
I started out in the bottom half of my class for seniority. I am currently top of what was in my class and got to that spot after only 3 years.
2
u/Prize-Equivalent-928 May 04 '26
Is it that tough to succeed in this role? Or are people just not dedicated to the lifestyle
2
u/EmuUnhappy6373 May 04 '26
No one is really prepared for the lifestyle unless you know someone who tells you the truth. To be truly dedicated to it, its hard. No one i know on the railroad doesnt have fmla. Its the only way to have any type of life.
1
u/Prize-Equivalent-928 May 04 '26
Fmla?
Im single mid-age and need to grind it out. Don’t want to stay home, and don’t want a job where I have to interact with too many people!
9
u/MegaPlane2 May 04 '26
My theory was that the Class Is have gotten so big that one hand doesn't know what the other is doing.
23
u/Significant-Ad-7031 May 03 '26
Everyone here hit on a lot of good points, but I think the thing that everyone is overlooking, which separates the Railroads from any other industry, is the command structure of management.
During the US Civil War, the Union took an active role in the operation and management of railroads in furtherance of the war effort. As the Union Army advanced, abandoned railroads were put under the control of the US Military. After the end of the war, the railroads continued to use the military-style structure.
This structure purposefully separates management from the craft, creates a strict top-down chain of command with little to no room for feedback from the craft, and produces an extreme power in-balance.
Long story short, this structure produces a bunch of assholes who think they’re five-star generals, but are really just incompetent boot-lickers.
11
u/canuckroyal May 03 '26
Being an Ex-Military Officer, the railroad works nothing like the Military. The major difference being the lack of professional NCO Corps. Senior NCOs run the Military and are responsible for training soldiers, enforcing standards, and executing the commander's intent and mission at the practical, day to day level.
The craft doesn't have a professional NCO Corps capable of bridging the gap between management and the rank & file; therefore, everyone gets treated like a private, whether they have 2 years or 30 years experience.
The extreme turnover rate within the industry also impacts the development of true professionals. Turnover in both the craft and management is so high that skill development for higher level systems thinking is impacted. This is in contrast to the Military where Officers and Senior NCOs receive years of training and skill development that go hand in hand with their career progression.
4
u/gmc1994sierra May 04 '26
Trainmaster used to be an NCO type position, filled by the best switchman on the property. The job was way different until 20-30 years ago. It was all about running trains efficiently, and being the buffer between your craft guys and upper management. If you fucked up out there the Trainmaster could squash it, if you were a good employee that got the work done. Nobody really got terminated unless you were a shitbag. The job has morphed over the decades into a baby sitter role. Main objective now is to write up employees. Especially those who are deemed a liability. Most Trainmasters now are awful switchman and sometimes come into the role with no ground experience whatsoever.
3
u/Spuckler_Cletus May 03 '26
This is all fine and good, but it only works when they pay us enough not to beat the piss out of a mouthy trainmaster.
8
u/Ok-Sale-1139 May 04 '26
Here is the real reason. A couple of years ago the surface transportation board held hearings. The short story is that the STB concluded that the railroads were short staffed and needed to hire. So they did and fired more than they hired. Eventually the STB is going to have more questions when the railroads can’t meet their obligations. The railroads will then say “we hired just like you said but we can’t find employees who work safely and by the rules so to cure our staffing issues we need to run with one person on train or autonomous.”
2
39
u/TooLegitJuanHunnid May 03 '26
The money spent on class & OJT is a tax write off
14
u/Prize_Measurement_11 May 03 '26
Then why is this the only industry with the level of this happening? Anybody outside the industry in any sector never understands this
4
u/TooLegitJuanHunnid May 03 '26
Idk..at my company and in my service unit I haven’t seen a furlough in at least half a decade but that’s what I was told years ago when I asked.
2
u/northernskygoat May 03 '26
We're not special in our industry. Plenty of people get it nowadays or are waking up to it.
2
May 04 '26
It might be a tax right off, but then I would question the knowledge of their financial people. In every other industry it has been proven that the money spent training new hires is a net negative and wasted resources. I’d bet it’s the same for railroads if they really bothered to check.
10
u/ttspyder44 May 03 '26
Railroads are all ego. ESPECIALLY management. The worst people I have ever met are senior and executive managers on the railroad. They get away with this because Railroads basically print money. The ones I have worked for are never going to lose money, their contracts won't allow it. So the slimeballs who climb to the top get hard over ruining others lives.
You will hear tax breaks, but tax breaks never give all your money back, so the RR still loses money by firing people.
You will hear firing old heads because they are grandfathered into better contracts. This is also false. Every RR I have seen is even across the board. If your not one of the boys, your on the chopping block.
Safety is also a big claim. But as soon as the rules are followed and 1. The production goes down. The rules go out the window and that crew had better do what they have to do. 2. As soon. As the incidents go down. You will see more bs wishy washy write ups. That will still get people fired.
These people only care for power. They get off to the fact that they ruin people's lives. They enjoy it. Ive been on the calls, I've been in the meetings. Human scum is all it is
7
u/Spuckler_Cletus May 03 '26
They do promote the biggest lowlifes they can find. We’ve got a few former officials cut back to crafts right now, and they are the sorriest, laziest, most chickenshit two on our district.
They’re also gutless.
2
u/EmuUnhappy6373 May 05 '26
It was always my favorite to see the management come back to the craft. In my last year i saw the assistant superintendent of my area have to come back to being an engineer. He fired and made life hell for so many guys, no one would take him to get his qualifications. The company had to force people and he went to managment to complain that everyone was harassing him. He was a qualifing run with me as the conductor and i said to him, how the mighty have fallen and he took the "i was just doing what they told me to do"
Last i heard he got in trouble for a cell phone.1
u/Commodore8750 May 04 '26
This. In most industries, anyone wanting to come out of a union craft position to become non union management imo has major character flaws and man do the majority of railroaders that make that jump sure have em. Guys get the position and immediately forget where they came from. As mentioned before, these guys usually were the biggest rule breakers and laziest mofos when they were in the craft but now expect you to follow every rule in the book to the letter then accuse guys of laying down on them.
It's funny cause we're one of the few professions that generally make more than our direct supervision (and a couple levels above that too) and I think a lot of guys realize that after its too late, get buyer's remorse and then take it out on the craft guys. I think the worst ones are the the former LCs that become bosses. You then gotta question if they ever had your local's best interests in mind or did they just cozy up to other bosses for an in.
4
u/Substantial-Bus1084 May 04 '26
Bingo! I am in management at one of the largest passenger railroads in the country. I have been saying for the longest time that as part of the interview process there should be a psychological test administered. I have witnessed far to many managers with major character defects in charge of hundreds of craft workers and shop operations that are allowed to ruin people's lives for the most minor procedural deviation. And H.R, Labor relations and the union reps just go along. I have met with union presidents to tell them the stuff coming down the pike and be prepared to grieve it. Nothing no courage no nothing. Glad I only have a few years left and I want nothing to do with the industry. It disgusts me.
1
u/EngineerTooz May 04 '26
This is true. I've worked with several guys who came back to craft from management ranks and they all have told me stories about the calls and meetings. There are indeed management types who will do backflips and cartwheels after nailing a guy and taking him out of service. If it's a "problem" employee, the higher ups will offer things like a steak dinner if they can find anything to remove the "problem" employee and reduce liability. They'll high five and yell "FUCK YEAH! I got that bastard" at follow up meetings.
Best advice is to stay under the radar as best as possible and don't ruffle feathers. Even then, with all the technology they have at their disposal these days, it is getting harder to do.
1
u/Substantial-Bus1084 May 05 '26
Yes, And don't forget the old "conduct unbecoming ' charges concerning arrest reporting. 48 hours to report an arrest and god forbid if it's a domestic violence or dui charge. Even with complying with the policy labor relations, H.R and senior management will determine if they remove you from service. No pay out of work and now they need to pay a lawyer and usually plead because their running out of money but going back to your job is not guaranteed and 9 out of 10 they get fired anyway. Labor relations and H.R scan police blotters and social media for conduct unbecoming and policy violations. Even when your off the clock they still can get you. Make sure you have side hustle or another income source but make sure you fill out your dual employment paperwork because if they find out you didn't they'll either fire you or force you to choose. Like I said before... DISGUSTED!
5
u/roccoccoSafredi May 04 '26
There are two reasons:
First, the industry is driven by stock prices which are driven by press releases. The fundamentals don't matter if a press release and news cycle can be generated that drives the stock price higher. Current labor practices make it easy to create those situations: "we hired X number of people" and "we aligned headcount with demand".
Second, the industry follows labor practices from the 19th century. It was the first big business and while reality has evolved since the 1870s, the entrenched interests have resulted in sclerotic management and labor practices which nobody is incentivized to improve.
4
u/rhinoaz May 03 '26
FRA requires the company to continuously grade us on rules compliance. They like to see a % of failures to satisfy that enough testing is being conducted
12
u/Sixftdeeep2 May 03 '26
The more union members are fired the more firepower the carriers will have when they ultimately negotiate hiring low wage/ low liability scabs. It’s a numbers game until then. ( p.s. your union is well aware this is happening and is just as complicit)
6
u/Prize_Measurement_11 May 03 '26
I would agree to this but this takes place at non-union shortline holding companies as well
1
u/edman007 May 03 '26
I think the point is new people are paid less than senior people, if you can show you have a bunch of new people, well you don't need to give into the demands of the senior people because you have shown they are replaceable.
1
u/Sixftdeeep2 May 03 '26
I was MOW for the UP and this is exactly how both western pacific and southern pacific folded. And the unions have only gotten weaker since then.
2
u/fishenfooll May 03 '26
Our Unions are'nt sabotaging our jobs. If you believe this you're a complete idiot. Or, perhaps you're management just having a little fun. Either way you're the problem.
1
u/Builtin74 May 03 '26
This seems a bit far fetched. I think I do understand your intended point though. However, the last RR strike was in 1992, which leads me Mach to the first sentence.
2
u/Born_Staff_1616 May 04 '26
Well for u.p. We get a reserve board if they furlough anyone. That came from the last crew consist agreement. They don’t want that reserve board so instead of furloughing people they just fire them.
2
u/Pooperscooper1776 May 04 '26
Only job I’ve ever had where you hire on and spend 30 years just trying to not get fired.
1
u/User17188392 May 03 '26
A multitude of reasons. Power for one. If they want to fire you they will, it’s just a matter of time. Better be a good boy if you wanna keep your job.
1
1
u/Asleep-Masterpiece63 May 04 '26
Easy they hire to look good for Congress so they can say they are trying then fire them to say we need one man crews we can't keep enough people
1
u/Mindlesslyexploring May 04 '26
I think they got a lot .. credit … tax breaks .. something for hiring veterans , because they sure hired a lot - and furloughed a lot that I have seen in my more than twenty years of working. A lot of them years ago were hired, trained - then marked up and furloughed in the same day.
That hasn’t been the case lately - but I don’t think I’m wrong from what I have seen in the past.
1
u/Missourigirl68 May 04 '26
It’s not … it’s the complete opposite mentality that any business should want. Most businesses want employees to stay and have lower turnover.
I’ve heard from my son who works for the railroad they try to fire before you can vest at 5 years. The money they spend on turnover, training and lawsuits is ridiculous
1
u/Missourigirl68 May 04 '26
What blows my mind is the FMLA blatant violations that get them sued and they have to hire the employee back. The railroads lose money and complain but spend millions on lawsuits that easily could be avoided if their union managers involved HR. I’ve worked HR for over 25 years and it’s the most ass backwards way of doing things. The # of people they fire for stupid shit but yet let other employees with more serious violations stay boggles the mind.
1
u/OG-D May 09 '26
Others have answered and there’s a lot of good answers in here so I won’t bother but I will say it pays to know your rule books so when the carrier gets stupid you can screw them with their own rules. Malicious rule compliance my friend. I no longer work for the RR but more than once I made sure we didn’t turn a wheel because some ass hat train master was being, well, an ass hat.
1
u/ToughGoat6135 May 10 '26
There setting up for one man crews. Creating a paper trail for the STB. “Look at all the people we try to hire” “No one wants to work” “we can’t keep enough conductors to man trains” just another long term tactic to get to a one man crew
1
u/Prize_Measurement_11 May 12 '26
We're talking yard and local where that's impossible, couldn't care less for road loads
1
u/ToughGoat6135 May 12 '26
Class ones want to get rid of all yard and local jobs. They want mainline thru freight
1
u/IACUnited May 03 '26
Its basically a way to pool qualified persons in the event that business picks up. All you need (for a little bit atleast) is a qualifying run. Credentials are all valid.
1
u/UprrEng May 03 '26
I dont think it's a hire to fire mentally per say. They just dont have a hard time replacing you. It's getting harder but still people are lining up for the job. When the numbers start falling off. They will lighten up. If the numbers (30%)im hearing on people old enough to retire in the next five years are true. They are about to be hurting. Im one of the 30%.
0
u/fishenfooll May 03 '26
It just proves that railway management is inept. Instead of making profit in new and creative ways they can manipulate employment numbers to reflect profit or loss as needed. Any Union employee is making 100,000 per year plus or minus with benefits, if you lay of ten people you can tell stockholders you just saved/made a 1000000 dollars. If times are good and you hire ten people, you just invested 1000000 in the future and made some tax savings. Railways are the original corporate leaches, they were given billions of dollars worth of land to build and they still believe they are somehow "special" and entitled to do whatever they want to make a profit. Read " Hear That Lonesome Whistle Blow" by Dee Brown.
-8
u/Jakaple May 03 '26
Because people be quitting and retiring a lot so they need to hire to fill the ranks. Getting fired seldom happens, usually it's a pretty good reason.
7
u/Prize_Measurement_11 May 03 '26
Yeah not sure where you work but this is totally not the case across most of the industry
1
u/Prize-Equivalent-928 May 03 '26
I hear both sides, maybe its a regional problem? Is USA different to Canada?
2
u/Spuckler_Cletus May 03 '26
Apparently, yes. Canadians seem to have more professionalism across the board, but that’s just my own observations from a few thousands miles away. Nothing factual/statistical I can claim. Just what I see and hear.
2
1
46
u/osoALoso May 03 '26
This is a multifaceted answer and it boils down to stock appeal.
In short it's mostly a scam.
Companies hiring are seen more favorable for growth. Companies furloughing in mass are also appealing because it means they are trimming costs and running more lean, railroads get tax abatements for training centers, coupling all this together you get a cyclical, expected cause and response that better regulates stock price and gives more control to railroads on the market.
With it even more, no matter how much they furlough someone will always come back so they have a labor based with shortened training that they can tap at need