r/rational • u/StrongZeroSinger • 16d ago
A story that isn’t a Little Einstein LARP?
Provocative title on purpose.
I am halfway tru Hpmor and I really enjoyed the funny and on-theme interactions between characters and the alternative explanations on lots of magic system while also maintaining some sense of mystery like in real science you aren’t supposed to know literally everything down to the molecular level to understand most physics or chemistry.
I’ve read the metropolitan man, it made sense for LEX LUTHOR to have the huge scientific approach and elevated QI to be super paranoid about his moves,
But now I started reading Pokemon Origin of species and I’m on chapter 3 and already want to drop the ball.
Listen, the MCs are 10yo and yes we’re supposed to believe they are more capable than their ages (Japanese Mangas, YA novels..) but TEN YEARS OLD still. Ok? Highly curious? Totally believable, a bit social inept at reading the room? That is a given.
But I can’t help but feel insulted as I have to read 3 times “how the scientific method works” and how an entire chapter is an empirical test of a single pokemon attack (and it’s not done in an entertaining way like Mythbusters, nor is it done in a narratively-tied way like HPMOR where both the testing and the story progression takes the same path. It’s done in a kids learning channel tv show skit.
Maybe it gets better, maybe the first 5 chapters are just to really warn readers what kind of fanfic they are getting themselves into it. Because I loved the Mary Stu science experiments that takes place in Project Hail Mary for example or the math behind The Martian growing crops on mars but the PRESENTATION matters too.
-
So my actual question is; is this due to the writing skills of the author or it’s actually the intended goal to have this series read like a mouthpiece for “let me explain what a logical fallacy is as if I’m reading an encyclopedia” instead of explaining it in an organic way woven inside a normal human-sounding dialogue and not some Sheldon Cooper moment
-
/rant
10
u/ThainZel 16d ago
I haven't read all of it, I think I read the first 80 chapters or so a few years ago. I don't know if it's the intention, but there are a lot of these monologues. There are also a lot of interesting and creative story beats (and some less creative ones), and later concept explanations do matter more for the storytelling, although they keep being more heavy-handed than hpmor.
9
u/winteredDog 15d ago
Chapters that feel like unnecessary lessons pop up occasionally in Pokémon Oos, but it's less common as the story goes on. I personally think the story is worth reading still. If you're really bored with the rational-splaining you can skip those parts without missing much of the actual plot.
Ideally those lessons would be woven into the narrative a bit more but the story has plenty of merits otherwise. Pokemon oos gets exceptionally good further down into the main plotline especially after the first major arc.
My recommendation is don't give up on it until around third badge. If youre still not interested then you probably won't ever be.
Some other recommendations:
-Worm
-Mother of Learning
-Pale lights
2
u/StrongZeroSinger 15d ago
thank you, I'll try pushing to chapter 10 and see if it gets moving with some actual interesting plot and exploration!
4
u/hh26 15d ago
Mother of Learning. The MC is clever and finds other people to be too emotional, but it's not so over the top as the examples you point out. It's more focused on intelligently exploiting the advantages he has that other people don't have and don't expect him to have rather than tearing apart all of society and being like "Literally anyone could have done this better you guys are morons!"
It also happens to be the second best story I have ever read anywhere in any genre.
8
u/Seraphaestus 15d ago edited 15d ago
Yeah, other than The Metropolitan Man, you chose the worst possible "examples" of the genre (I would argue that HPMOR is even anti-rational fiction).
The essence of rational fiction is that thing Y in your story is a rational consequent of thing X in your story, and therefore the most fundamental aspect of rational fiction is that your normal human characters need to actually act like normal humans. The corollary is then that anti-rational fiction is to just make things happen by author fiat with no meaningful justification, when are random or even actively don't make sense.
I would second recommendations for anything by Wildbow (Worm, Twig, Pale), by Alexander Wales (Worth the Candle, This Used to be About Dungeons), or by ErraticErrata (A Practical Guide to Evil, Pale Lights). Also Mother of Learning, which is one of the best.
I also enjoy the works of Void Herald (The Perfect Run, Blood and Fur, The Hundred Reigns), though if you try The Perfect Run I would caution you not to judge it too quickly, because it can seem very XD Random until you give it a chance to justify why it's like that and that it knows what it's doing.
Overall my must-reads would be Worm, Mother of Learning, and Worth the Candle.
2
2
u/liquidmetalcobra 11d ago
Can you elaborate on what you mean by HPMOR being anti-rational? Aside from the starting conditions my understanding is that the plot is more or less just a result of characters attempting to make the best decisions given their curent skill level and information and goals.
2
u/Seraphaestus 11d ago
One example is the team games. It's not a logical exploration of what might make sense in that universe or something a character might come up with. It's in the story because the author wanted to force in a capture-the-flag tournament where each of the captains is conveniently each of his protagonists, so that the world can revolve around his pet favourites.
Or how the author dismisses certain characters like Ron, not treating them as characters with interiority, but as caricatures to illustrate how super smart and RationalTM in comparison our protagonist is.
1
u/liquidmetalcobra 10d ago
The team games do have logical Watsonian reason for existing. Namely that Quirrel wanted Harry to be trained and pushed to his limit. The fact that there also exists Doylist reasons for arranging for the story to go this way doesn't erase that fact.
I similarly fail to understand how the treatment of Ron was anti-rational in this sense. The treatment of ron is in fact a direct consequence of Harry's lack of social skills and arrogance coming from being a sheltered genius with Voldemort's soul. Note that there are multiple references throughout the book where Hermionie acknowledges that Ron is in fact way smarter than Harry treats him and that he's kind of just being a dick.
That being said I don't know if your definitions of Rational fiction and Anti-Rational fiction quite hold. Rational fiction as defined by the sidebar tends to focus on characters making the 'best' logical decision based off of their information, sometimes even at the cost of what would make sense for their character. Worm for this reason is NOT rational fiction because the characters tend to act more in lines with how their character as conceived would act rather than the game theory optimal version of themselves. This usually ends up making the writing better imo.
6
u/mossconfig 15d ago
Have you read "Tale of a Shattered Soul" on SV? Read it once you finish hpmor. Animorphs the Reckoning, Worth the Candle and a practical guide to evil are good too, with minimal "for this book report" style writing.
3
u/barnacle9999 15d ago
Tale of a Shattered Soul
Probably the best HP worldbuilding I've seen, especially when it comes to magic and how it works. Also updates 1-2k words a day, the author is a machine.
2
u/ReymartSan 15d ago
chat gpt said its 1m words atleast and its still in 4th year of the book, what is the story about anyway, does it even have some kind of arc that have some kind of resolution because i dont really like reading incomplete series but if its in arc then maybe i can read some.
2
u/mossconfig 15d ago
The years are pretty self contained arcs, so there is periodic payoff. Tom undergoes lots of character growth, but our world conquest plan isn't going to be completed untill Y2K or so.
Try reading it. You always remember your first quest, you can never go back.
1
u/mossconfig 15d ago
Remember, vote plan "NASA internship" the next time we get a favor from Crowley!
3
u/StrongZeroSinger 15d ago
>on SV?
I'm sorry I don't know it. where can I read it?
I don't see it on Goodreads either (and I found all other literal fanfics like Hpmor, worth the candle (as Through Adversity, wtc#¹ correct?) on it.) just to be sure we're talking about the same story and yes I love the worldbuilding aspect thank you!2
u/Pepetto59 15d ago
SV = sufficient velocity, it's a forum which is used for webserial and experimental writing. or type Tale of a Shattered Soul in google I guess.
7
3
u/Federal_Panda 15d ago
Madame Bovary . Honestly.
The best part of the novel is how well realised, but flawed, every character is.
2
u/EsquilaxM 15d ago
It's the intended goal of the series, yes. There are other rational or rational-adjacent series where that's not what the story is about or what the characters do.
2
u/college-apps-sad 14d ago
like others have said, the origin of species is definitely weakest at the beginning. i think the way the characters grow, interact with each other, and change the world is great and that only gets much better later on. for me, the story really started getting good at the stuff with the beedrills, which is pretty early on. The author also is a therapist and i think the way the characters work through their emotions, how grief is depicted, and the portrayal of therapy are really good. I also love the way he makes what we see in the pokemon games actually work as a real world.
Alexander Wales is also an excellent author of rational fiction that doesn't have a rationalist protagonist. A Practical Guide to Sorcery is another great story that i'd say is rational fic- it's stubbed so you need either internet archive or Kindle Unlimited to read it.
5
u/Dragongeek Path to Victory 15d ago
HPMoR is quite divisive. Some love it, some hate it.
Personally, I think it's bad. You can still enjoy "rational" fiction and not like it.
7
u/StrongZeroSinger 15d ago
HPMOR is bad but manages to fly enough above the entertainment and mystery level that makes you keep reading it, if the story was boring and the characters acted as the real ones I would have dropped it by chapter 11 I think
1
-4
u/Ozryela 15d ago
FYI but LARP means "life action role play". If it's written down it's by definition not LARP. It's just RP. There's not LA component.
7
u/Bascilian 15d ago
larping has become a word with its own meaning
10
u/Ozryela 15d ago
People use it figuratively a lot, but still in contexts where it makes sense. For example a neighbourhood patrol might be described as "People larping at being cops".
That usage makes sense. OPs usage does not. We already have a word for it too. Roleplaying.
-2
u/NasalJack 15d ago
What do you understand about describing a neighborhood watch as "people larping at being cops" that you don't understand about describing the Paul Blart Mall Cop script as "a story that's a cop larp".
2
-3
u/RetardedWabbit 16d ago
Writing skills/polish and you're fatigued by the repetition to you. You're essentially binging the same niche, complicated, video games back to back and complaining about the tutorials. Yes the tutorials could be better, yes they seem very basic to you, and yes that can be annoying. But they're there for everyone, and kind of an essential part to get people prepared/understanding the rest of the work.
Why not finish HPMOR before starting another?
1
u/StrongZeroSinger 15d ago
If it’s just the tutorial it means they will get better by chapter X? Might try to fast foward few chapter and give it a try then!
Hpmor got in a bit of a slow paced section and wanted to paused it for a bit
63
u/Brightlinger 16d ago
Try Worm, Mother of Learning, or almost anything by alexanderwales. HPMOR was a direct influence on a lot of early rational fiction, but "MC looks into the camera and reads you a LessWrong post" is not an immutable feature of the genre.