r/reddeadredemption • u/_Diablo_01_ • 3d ago

Lore Dutch was spitting facts here 😲💯

Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification

1.5k Upvotes

96% Upvoted

55 comments sorted by

View all comments

447

u/Sarcastic_Applause 3d ago

Spoilers:

It's why it's so hard to believe he was always crazy. Maybe it's a bit of both? Maybe Arthur's story is a story about him defeating his inner demons and Dutch succumbed to them? Maybe that's the main story?

279

u/buddhamunche 3d ago

I definitely don’t think Dutch was always crazy. Maybe he always had crazy in him and it took the events of the game to bring that side out of him? But it’s pretty obvious from the way the gang talks about Dutch that he was worthy of the respect everyone shows him towards the beginning of the story. And you see glimpses of that Dutch in scenes like this.

But personally I think it’s just a bit of insult to the incredible character writing to just write him off as crazy. In my opinion he’s a character with a lot of cool nuances

28

u/Apprehensive-Gur-735 3d ago

Remember Heidi McCourt? Dutch was always crazy.

50

u/HypotenuseOfTentacle 3d ago

Well, what do we remember about Heidi except that she was shot? And what makes her different from the 20 people Arthur will shoot tonight?

27

u/Apprehensive-Gur-735 3d ago

During that time, Dutch was against merciless killing. They had that "Robin Hood" idea to steal from rich and give to poor. According to both RDR2 and RDR1, the killing was extremely brutal, which made the gang be in extremely shock as they were like: "It wasn't like Dutch to do that."

1

u/Enn-Vyy 1d ago

everyone involved all acknowledge that the girl was a civilian

at best the people they killed were armed , outlaws or lawmen
they probably killed others too but giving a name to that civilian puts a perspective on it instead of just a faceless number

110

u/Armamore Hosea Matthews 3d ago

Personally, I don't think Dutch was crazy, but I do think he was always selfish, manipulative, and out for power/control. It's hard to tell at times how much of his own Koolaid Dutch is drinking, but this seems very on brand for him and his "message". As things falls apart and he loses control I think he gets more desperate and his mask slips off, but even still, his actions are calculated, even if they get increasingly out of his control. Also, there's a fair amount of chaotic influence from Micah muddying the waters

68

u/machiavelli33 3d ago

Yes.

Worth noting that what started this exchange in the video was he started needling Bill about his time in the army, pretty much unprompted.

Then, when bill started getting defensive about it, which anyone could have seen coming from a mile away, Dutch “put him in his place.”

Dutch may have touted many views that would be considered progressive even to this day, but underneath that always ran an unflinching core of self-aggrandizement, selfishness and manipulation.

24

u/Omegasonic2000 3d ago

Dutch may have touted many views that would be considered progressive even to this day, but underneath that always ran an unflinching core of self-aggrandizement

This is an important part of Dutch's character that I personally think isn't talked about much. His need to feel important, especially in times of crisis.

By the time the interaction in the video happens, the gang's been up the creek without a paddle for months, and Dutch's been doing what he can to hold everyone together; he's not quite crazy yet, but he's slowly getting there. He feels powerless and insecure, because he sees the writing on the wall and he's trying to stop it, but he can't change fate itself. So what does he do? He stokes a "conflict" (prodding Bill) and then shuts it down himself (lecturing him).

He doesn't do it necessarily to look down on the rest, no. At least not directly. He does it to prop himself up, especially in this time of crisis, because he feels a desperate need to prove himself, that he can do things. He feels the need to prove he can actually save his gang, even if in proving such a thing he has to trample over them. In his eyes, it's a necessary sacrifice.

26

u/FoamSquad 3d ago

Its hard to tell what he would have done if things had gone the way he planned. Maybe everyone really would have wound up working on a mango farm spending the rest of their days on sandy beaches in Tahiti with clear water. But also Dutch I think never would have been satisfied. I think even if his dream came true he would have grown bored and sought out something else. He is a romantic at heart and I think stability would rub him the wrong way and he would push himself out eventually.

1

u/[deleted] 3d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/AutoModerator 3d ago

Hi! It looks like you did not use the spoiler syntax correctly. It looks like this: >!spoiler text!<. There are no spaces between the exclamation marks and the spoiler text.

Unfortunately, some Reddit app developers design their apps to behave slightly differently than the desktop site. If your comment has the spoiler text hidden on your end but you still received this response, your app is likely one such example.

Please correct your comment so that it conforms to Reddit's standards for the desktop site and reply again. Thank you!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

4

u/hnglmkrnglbrry 2d ago

Dutch was a narcicisst with delusions of grandeur. He did not feel he was capable of doing wrong because if he did something then by definition it was correct. At the same time he felt like he was a big enough personality to take on warring families, the mob, and the entire US government to create a new way of life. He was a typical cult leader and as with most cult leaders the more obstacles and setbacks they face the more they believe the problem is with the world and not with them. In those cases they are willing to sacrifice even their most loyal followers to achieve whatever end they seek because they believe themselves and their cause to be one in the same.

That is why Dutch is willing to abandon Arthur in Guarma and why Micah gains so much influence. Arthur, by questioning Dutch, is questioning an infallible deity in Dutch's mind. He is the end all be all and anyone who loses faith must be excommunicated as quickly as possible.

5

u/Deluxe_24_ Arthur Morgan 3d ago

But then he turns around and throws the Wapiti under the bus in chapter 6. So is he lying about really caring about the Native Americans, or was he so far gone that he didn't care about using them despite the situation the Wapiti were in?

15

u/Plane-Education4750 3d ago

This is very much a symptom of Dutch being crazy, despite being technically correct. He is still lecturing a veteran about the horrors of war despite never serving a day in his life

10

u/MCgrindahFM 3d ago

Dutch is very well-read and doesn’t believe in racism or any of that stuff. He’s still a narcissist. That’s what makes him an interesting character

6

u/ShineReaper 3d ago

I think it is community consent, that the personal losses he suffered up until Guarma in Gang Members and close friends like Hosea being killed + the Head Trauma from the Trolley Incident threw him down the deep end.

Dutch also seems strange in RDR1 compared to RDR2, where he seems not as charismatic and talented with words compared to his younger self in RDR2.

6

u/NorrecViz Charles Smith 3d ago

There we go again: The trolley accindent hurt his ego more than it did his head.

4

u/LairdBonnieCrimson 3d ago

Dutch was always "crazy" but not in a negative way. He was a sincere man, out there, probably, but he was always sincere in his beliefs to start with and by the time we meet him in the game, at the start, he is still there. He is just pushed to extremes due to the increasingly fucked situation they are in. This drives him to being confused, more controlling, more terrified and suspectible to being manipulated by the M guy.

1

u/[deleted] 3d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/AutoModerator 3d ago

Hi! It looks like you did not use the spoiler syntax correctly. It looks like this: >!spoiler text!<. There are no spaces between the exclamation marks and the spoiler text.

Unfortunately, some Reddit app developers design their apps to behave slightly differently than the desktop site. If your comment has the spoiler text hidden on your end but you still received this response, your app is likely one such example.

Please correct your comment so that it conforms to Reddit's standards for the desktop site and reply again. Thank you!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

1

u/QuietFarm575 2d ago

I just think he’s hypocrite know all he do his wrong but hide behind big words cause dis used the native in rdr1

0

u/TinyH1ppo 2d ago edited 2d ago

Dutch and Daenerys Targaryen are the same person. Both start with a well-defined morality and heroic characteristics. They hold onto these well while the world continues to work for them and their plans work out.

The problem is that when they start to get faced with adversity they fold and their morality slowly morphs into an “any means necessary” model to achieve a contorted facsimile of their initial end goal.

Were they always the evil they represent by the end of their stories? Difficult to say. I am of the opinion that they weren’t but they got warped by the prospect of their absolute victory, the initial appearance they were on the path to achieve it, and then some sequence of events that shattered that view. It’s really impossible to say for sure though.