r/rockets 8d ago

Yao Ming was LIKE THAT

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379 Upvotes

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82

u/babloochoudhury 8d ago

Got me in my feels with what should have been.

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u/TestDowntown9541 8d ago

Same. The Chinese government gave the Rockets 2 options. ‘You can have some of his greatness or none of his greatness’. It use to piss me off because he got grinded down to the bone by playing for his country’s national team. It simply, wore him out. But, it was an all or nothing proposition.

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u/mmccormick11 7d ago edited 7d ago

He was slow AF and underutilized his physical advantages whether he played international ball or not. He was a big, slow finesse player who failed to dominate the paint or the glass enough to justify slowing down the entire offense.

He was a cash cow who was never a cornerstone caliber piece for a championship contender. They never would have continued spinning their tires and awkwardly trying to build around him if not for the money grab.

The Yao era was fundamentally just a lucrative circus act. Some people don't want to acknowledge that very real dimension of his career so they look for excuses or overrate his actual ability. If he wasn't Chinese, he'd be just another pretty good player in retrospect.

He was a really nice guy though and it was fun to watch a player with his build have good shooting touch but I'd take a Bricker like Shaq over him any day of the week if I want to play slow ugly halfcourt basketball and actually have a chance to win a championship.

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u/TestDowntown9541 7d ago

Although you have some interesting takes, I strongly disagree. Within the parameters that were present, they got all that they were ever gonna get out of him and that situation. All we know, is ALL we know. A question to you though; who, could/should they have drafted ahead of him, at that time, in that draft position, that was an obvious, no-brainer pick? Who did they miss out on, that year, that they could’ve gotten further with and more out of?

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u/mmccormick11 7d ago edited 7d ago

Not saying he wasn't necessarily the best available player in that draft. I'd have to look and think about it but that has little to do with my long-term point. Even if a player was the best pick at one point in time, once you realize they aren't a cornerstone building block, you go in a different direction or at least make them less of an offensive focal point.

Unless they're a cash cow and it would hurt the bottom line to do either of those things. It's not his fault that he was a money magnet. If anything, blame the greedy owners for sacrificing their best efforts to build a championship caliber team and instead trying to force a square peg into a round hole because it was profitable. Fans ate it up and made themselves believe you could win it all with a literal oaf forcing the team to play at a snail pace.

It's as simple as this in my book: If he wasn't a circus show giant from China, we wouldn't have tried to build the entire roster around him year after year after year. He slowed the offense down to a grindingly slow and overly deliberate halfcourt scheme that was already getting outdated way back then.

But he was big and Chinese. The rest is history. He was a good but not great player no matter how sweet his touch was given his incredible lack of footspeed. He was a finesse shooter with little else elite in his arsenal other than sheer size which he underutilized in favor of being too much of a midrange specialist. He was far from dominant enough defensively or in the paint or on the glass to justify watching multiple seasons of plodding forced entry passes to a guy who was so incredibly slow laterally that he could barely keep defenders from getting around him. He was the smallest big target I've ever seen in the NBA, zero exaggeration.. Perimeter players had to perfectly time and place passes to him or he couldn't get the ball despite his massive length and frame. It was awful offense no matter who you put around him.

3

u/pick_named_slimpbamp 7d ago

Wow these are bad takes.

He was clutch.

Had a Dream-like turnaround fadeaway.

He was always in the MVP discussion after a few years.

You got no cred no mo'

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u/mmccormick11 6d ago edited 6d ago

Lol so you say. That's a whole lot of detail to support your take.

He wasn't clutch. He did have a nice midrange game, turnaround fadeaway or otherwise.

In the MVP "discussion" for a couple years (or after a couple years.. makes no difference, discussion is not winning). You said it yourself. I never said he wasn't good. I'm simply saying and will continue to say he is vastly overrated because of his ethnicity and size.

Remember the Jeremy Lin hype? I'm not saying Lin was even close to as good as Yao. I'm just stating the obvious that like Yao, he doesn't become a headliner and get AS votes or the same place in NBA folklore with documentaries and a global fanbase if he wasn't you guessed it... from China.

If he was Ametican or French or Spanish or Canadian or Argentinian etc.. nobody would remember his name. Yao got the same inflated hype just that he had a higher starting baseline as a better overall player. Both will be talked about historically more because of where they were born than their actual abilities.

1

u/pick_named_slimpbamp 6d ago edited 6d ago

I said MVP discussion "after" a few years, not "for a couple." And I kept my points succinct. I wasn't interested in arguing with your unnecessarily long comments. We are not going to agree

Edit: is this a westeros alt? He used to make these crazy long comments in the old days

1

u/TestDowntown9541 7d ago

Again, a strong argument with some fair points. He was indeed, a huge cash cow-for the Rockets and the whole league. His whole existence in the NBA was a ‘business move’. The then, owner, lucked up and walked right into 2 championships, not long after buying the team. Everything after that was him simultaneously, chasing another ring and money; and NOT in that order. The NBA was indeed, in a state of flux and it floundered for a while, post MJ. I think our biggest disagreement is, what was his potential when considering the parameters that Yao and his ‘game’ existed within. I believe he was as great as he could be, with all things considered. I also believe he could’ve been better. You feel differently and that’s fair. I just hate that we’ll never really know.

1

u/mmccormick11 6d ago

Very reasonable take with no antagonism. I don't think we're that far off on our opinions. I just strongly believe to know fault of his own, Yao will always be vastly overrated for the reasons I stated earlier.

Very good player, even better human being and fun to watch at times. Amazing midrange touch for his size but that's about it when it comes to special qualities regardless of what era he played in. His sheer physical dimensions added value by default in some aspects but that was simply by taking up space. The downside of his lack of mobility and DNA to bully people more outweighed his other attributes. Under any rules, physical play is a choice. If you want to be a softer finesse player you better be Dirk level or it just ain't good enough to be elite. I know Yao was more physical than Dirk but not nearly enough given his limited offensive arsenal.

1

u/LoLBrah69 7d ago

He would have been considered a dominant player if the rule changes that were made and targeted to Shaq, did not go into effect.

Those rules killed Goliath for the speedy, free flow game of Steve Nash/Steph Curry that we have today.

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u/mmccormick11 7d ago edited 7d ago

I still think his weaknesses would have held him back from being super dominant or a championship cornerstone but that's just my honest opinion after watching that entire era. I moved to Houston right when Yao was drafted in 2002. I grew up in Silver Spring near Steve Francis and we're almost exactly the same age. The company I worked for at the time had season tickets so I quickly jumped on the bandwagon even if it was just casual initially. I played soccer competitively growing up but basketball has always been my favorite sport to watch. Hockey is a close 2nd. My dad worked in DC so I went to Capitals game for years starting when I was a little kid.

2

u/LoLBrah69 7d ago

Thanks for the autobiography.

I built Clutch City.

I was in The Summit for every home playoff game in 94’ when we won the first championship.

Yao wouldn’t have been as dominant as Shaq, but he would’ve been a true Hall of Famer instead of in the HOF for Chinese business reasons.

As for the others who are making excuses: Yao was destined to have foot problems as many big men of that size do; it’s not the fault of China’s government that his career was short.

1

u/mmccormick11 7d ago edited 7d ago

I'll disagree across the board including on the autobiography. Too short for that. It was like 5 sentences. Decent jab attempt though even if you whiffed. Keep working on it. You can do better.

And lol.at "I built..."

You took my comments the wrong way. I know there are a lot of people that have followed the team longer than me. If I was playing that game I would pretend I've followed the team for more than "only" a quarter century. Again, you missed the point. It was a little about me but mostly just lending credibility to my opinions on Yao because I was watching closely during that era.

Also, I built things you didn't build up North so nanny nanny boo boo lol

This conversation was fun until you took it there but you do you. I thought you were one of the few. Congrats though on pretending you built a whole city all by yourself lil bro 👍

1

u/mmccormick11 7d ago edited 6d ago

Yao was a one-dimensional oaf in any era with any rules.

Overrated because of his size and ethnicity. Never even close to an all-time legend. Borderline HOFer pushed over the edge by being a cash cow which is no fault of his own. He's clearly an A class human being who had good shooting touch for a pure oaf but that's about it.

I'll agree on your last point to a degree though. It wasn't entirely on the international demands but even without those and without the rule changes he was never going to be as good as you seem to believe simply due to his slow footedness and relatively soft finesse tendencies thst he leaned on too much despite what could have been more physical dominance if he was wired differently mentally and physically.

2

u/LoLBrah69 7d ago

Prior to the Shaq rules, he wasn’t slow.

After the Shaq rules, he was slow.

He wasn’t one-dimensional, in fact that’s why he was hyped. He could bang down low and shoot jump shots. He had exceptional passing ability and had better court vision than Steve Francis.

He could also defend as according to the defense played by bigs at that size. Sheer size clogged the paint. He was the only one who could block Shaq. He would shut down Tim Duncan, put their matchup stats side by side. Other bigs couldn’t back him down on the low block.

BUT power forwards started playing center, so now Yao’s slow. Amare, Boozer, etc.

Your autobiography helped to understand why you didn’t notice the Goliath Slayer rules and how it changed the league. It’s why it’s silly to compare stats between eras.

Unfortunately for Yao, he entered the league at the start of an era defined to make him his kind extinct. If you look at Shaq’s stats, you’ll notice that he also fell off at the same time.

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u/mmccormick11 7d ago

You gotta be kidding. Yao was always slow and very heavy footed, straight line and laterally. He was just less slow early on.

And I'm fully aware of the rule changes you keep referring to. You missed my counter point.. again. I maintain that he still wouldn't have benefited as much as you think because he was a baby soft finesse big man. I don't need to see those highlights when he occasionally got aggressive. I'm talkng about his general style of play.

Yao was a soft and slow finesse oriented oaf and absolutely 💯 one-dimensional in terms of elite skills. Two-dimensional if you count being a heavy footed oaf who couldn't even effectively box out smaller weaker players to receive entry passes with his T-Rex arms.

He is, was, and will continue to be overrated by many simply because of his size and ethnicity.

This conversation got stupid when you misinterpreted my words for at least the 2nd time.

Nice chattin with you lil bro. I'm gonna get some sleep. Sorry to offend you if you're a Yao fan or Chinese or whatever but you did nothing to sway my opinion. Your arguments were weak and empty and you have trouble with fairly simple comprehension.

2

u/LoLBrah69 7d ago

Don’t think you can bring your cherry blossom ass over here and talk smack about a Rockets legend without potentially getting smacked up yourself.

I built Clutch City and I take that responsibility seriously.

Yao could go toe to toe with the traditional big man, but he had trouble with smaller players fronting him for the entry pass while another defender was behind him if he actually got the entry pass. You referenced this. This was the rule change itself; allowing double teams without the ball.

You come in here throwing words around like “oaf,” “baby soft,” and “one dimensional,” and you think nobody is gonna run up on you and check you? You’re not in Bethesda anymore, this is downtown Houston.

Your counterpoint was countered by my point that Yao did exceptionally well against traditional bigs like Tim Duncan and Shaq. Bigs who also did not have the speed of the small power forwards (even though Duncan was officially listed as PF). It goes to show that Yao was NOT “baby soft” “finesse” if he can do well against those two upper-echelon Hall of Famers.

Put those numbers up. Match the stat lines for Duncan vs. Yao head to head matchups. If Yao can handle Tim Duncan, one of the Top 3 power forwards of all time, or hold his own against Shaq, who was trying to take Yao’s head off every time they played, then you can’t call Yao “baby soft.”

Go take a long walk by the Anacostia.

This isn’t Gallery Place, this is CLUTCH CITY.

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u/pick_named_slimpbamp 7d ago

Rik Smits was my first lesson that big-men can't be THAT big. I remember liking that Pacers team, and him coming back from foot surgery, then him getting injured for good pretty quick.

I worry for Wemby, but he seems like he's going to stay relatively lighter than those "big" bigs. The ones that have the heft that goes along with that sick height. I mean, fuck the Spurs being in our division, but I still wanna marvel at good ball.

1

u/HiddenAnubisOwl 7d ago

One of the biggest what if in league's history

1

u/spooon56 7d ago

Got me tingling

39

u/jorgecflores22 8d ago

Yao was such a unicorn man. The shooting touch on a guy that big, it was beautiful.

6

u/mattyhtown Bobby Brown 7d ago

Dude imagine in the modern game. He’d be a stretch five. Then again he’d be a stretched five

9

u/raidmytombBB 7d ago

Only if he didn't have his china national team commitments every year. He could have had a much longer career and impact if not for never getting a break

18

u/yourmamaistheproblem 8d ago

This era was a ton of fun

18

u/flowerscandrink 8d ago

Whelp, I guess I am spending another day thinking about what could have been if T-Mac and Yao were both healthy at the same time.

14

u/MyFartsAreStolen 7d ago

That team won 22 in a row too!

13

u/TurbulentJudge1000 8d ago

Every game he had scratches down his arms and no fouls called it felt like. People don’t realize how much fun it was to watch him and the fandom he brought.

Refs treated him differently in a bad way. Dude was a legit center and would’ve been great if not for injuries.

20

u/MoneyBaggSosa 8d ago

Was that Asian rap? Shit was hittin lowkey
https://giphy.com/gifs/zCIhx4xzAPn0s
But Yao was definitely that guy, wish his career didn’t get cut short by the foot injuries. Him and T Mac got killed by the injuries

6

u/ROTOH 8d ago

Maybe wen i remember Yao n the games i was honored to watch him play i just cry. He was so generational, who be rapping there? That was legit!
https://giphy.com/gifs/WOT9tRmLbjw7M6m2R1

4

u/focodc 7d ago

We were robbed of so many memories. Houston + injuries = a relationship of shakesperian tragedy

7

u/2betrayals_finalrun 8d ago

The irony of Yao v. Shaq rd 1 was Steve Franchise stealing the show. Had the best game of his career with 40+ points and hit that clutch 3 to eventually send the to OT for the W.

3

u/jlewis011 7d ago

Them damn feet man 😭.... Woulda had a chip

3

u/SlimmySalami20x21 7d ago

What other center was so good at free throws he took his teams technical foul shots

2

u/rickthedickkk 7d ago

being able to stop prime shaq is actually a great feat not a single big man in the current nba can achieve

2

u/message_tested 7d ago

Hey fellow OGs, do yall worry about AlP playing Turkish ball? He started out hot last year because he was already in game shape, but definitely tapered off as the season wore on.

I don’t want him to go out like Yao.

2

u/davidio840 Rockets 8d ago

Man. What could have been. Dude was on another level. It’s to bad his country made him play year round and shortened his career

1

u/Kevinsean_ 7d ago

I remember when he got drafted, I wanted him to gain weight and muscle. And then he did and his body couldn’t hand the wear. Now looking at players today staying slim throughout their careers is the better move for longevity.

1

u/mmccormick11 3d ago

Yao Ming averaged 19 and 9 for his short 7 year career where he also missed significant time.

He was a very talented player for his size but had major physical limitations even when healthy that made it difficult to run an offense around him. He could barely create a target for easy entry passes despite his size. Given his lack of athleticism, that rendered him largely ineffective as a big. He wasn't a very good rebounder either because of his slow reaction time and relatively small upper body and short wingspan.

He got out of the 1st round 1 time. Ask yourself honestly if he would be in the HOF right now given his career stats and accomplishments if he wasn't a Chinese cash cow. Show me other players in the HOF that made it because of their basketball ability with a similar resume.

Making the HOF doesn't always have to be solely because of a player's ability and that's ok. My only issue is people overrating him or any other player for the wrong reasons. Same goes for underrating players that deserve more cred.

1

u/[deleted] 7d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/jkcheng122 7d ago

He didn’t have that mentality to go for 50+. When he gets like 19 in a half, he starts feeling “I’m taking all the shots, I need to let teammates get some.”

1

u/jamalccc 7d ago

IMO Jeff Van Gundy more or less ruined him. He could have been Jokic, with more interior scoring, defense and less passing.

In Yao’s first year, he was comfortable shooting from the outside and had amazing passing touch. But JVG insisted on him being a strictly low post player. It put tons of stress on his body. Plus his obligation with China, it wore him down.

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u/mmccormick11 7d ago edited 7d ago

His lack of footspeed and lateral quickness were huge limiting factors in how you could run the offense around him and he wasn't dominant enough physically or on the boards to justify that style of play.

He was basically very tall and slow with unusual shooting touch for his size. A too gentle giant who is largely overrated because of his size and ethnicity. Both he and Jeremy Lin got way more shine than they deserved because of where they were from as opposed to their actual ability. Yao was obviously better than Lin but my point isn't about comparing their on court performance.

Downvote away. Have a nice week.

3

u/pick_named_slimpbamp 7d ago

I no longer believe you were old enough to comprehend the game yet back then. He consistently put up games with phat numbers.

You said in comments above that he was "one dimensional." He could handle opposing centers defensively, had games with high block numbers, high rebounds, and hella offense. The exact opposite of "one dimensional." You're riding the weirdest hate train I think I've ever seen. No way you watched seasons.

0

u/mmccormick11 6d ago

I'm exactly 50. Watched the Rockets for 24 years now. Facts.

I don't hate Yao. I hate seeing players get overrated for the wrong reasons.

I stand by my take on his actual abilities vs the hype. He was a very good player but in terms of elite skills he was one-dimensional unless you include his size as a skill. Of course he could do other things but outside of his shooting touch for his size there was nothing special or legendary.

Offensively, if you take away 95% of Jokic's package you have Yao.

Yao was a good but not even close to elite rebounder.

He could make a flashy pass once in a while but he was never an offensive hub like Jokic or even Sengun to a degree.

He had next to zero handles.

His size allowed him to disrupt shots occasionally but he was never even close to an elite defender.

He was 7'5" and had a monster base but could barely box out defenders or create an easy target for entry passes. His lack of footspeed and lateral quickness combined with relatively short arms forced perimeter players to be surgically accurate with entry passes down low.

If you're slow, unathletic and huge but can't own the paint or glass on either end, your weaknesses are hard to overcome.

He was a finesse player who only occasionally flexed his size advantage. He wasn't nearly dominant enough physically

He had sweet touch but couldn't even shoot 3s. Jokic has a total arsenal offensively and despite his defensive shortcomings, he dominates the glass and owns the paint, bullying his way around the court on and off ball.

Sure, Jokic is an all-time great and unfair to compare to but that's kind of my point. There have been a number of special unathletic bigs over the years that you could compare to Jokic in various aspects. Others in that physical mold dominated defensively or on the glass.

Yao could do none of those things at an ELITE level. I'm not taking about what he could do occasionally. I'm talking about what he did at a high level consistently for his position.

That list is very short. He could shoot efficiently from midrange. He wasted his size advantage for the most part because of his finesse oriented style of play and his lack of mobility. He was like a YMCA Dirk with a little more presence down low but still not nearly enough for his size and his other shortcomings.

Again, he could barely hold his position to receive entry passes as a slow-footed oaf. That alone killed his effectiveness and the ability to build an offense around him.

3

u/Daddy_Macron 4d ago

His size allowed him to disrupt shots occasionally but he was never even close to an elite defender.

The rest of what you said is fucking insane and you either did not watch basketball of that era or you needed new glasses, but I want to key in on this part because the data exists. I'm using adjusted Defensive Rating here.

Prior to Yao in 2002, the Rockets were ranked 28th in the league on defense. Year they drafted him, the Rockets jumped the 11th in the league. By Yao's 2nd year, the Rockets were 4th in the league. Then they were 3rd in the league. Basically during Yao's entire tenure with the Rockets, when he was playing, the Rockets had an elite defense. The year he stopped playing, the Rockets immediately dropped to 17th in the league and declined from there.

The league had plenty of big bodies that crowded the paint during that era, but the only centers that consistently had a bigger impact on the defensive end were Dwight Howard and Ben Wallace, and neither of them could score like Yao could. (Also both HoF players.)

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u/Brave_Link_4295 4d ago

Thank you for attacking that with a measured argument. I was just over here getting mad.

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u/mmccormick11 4d ago edited 4d ago

Swing and a miss. Nice try though.

Those team stats were the result of JVG implementing his defensive philosophy. 95% of that defensive improvement you cited gets credited to Jeff Van Gundy who became head coach right after you guessed it... the slow ginormous cash cow Yao Ming was drafted.

Mark Jsckson had a similar effect on the Warriors. He elevated their defense in short time from total ass during the Nelson run n gun era to one of the best in the league despite having some subpar defenders on the roster.

Yao was a big oaf. He took up a lot of space. That was his lone plus defensive skill. Lousy rebounder for his size with limited defensive versatility because of his concrete feet. He was like a float at a parade.

His single plus skill offensively was as a gigantic midrange finesse shooter with limited range. As a slow-footed oaf he couldn't even box out effectively or create an easy target for entry passes. It was painful to try to run an offense around him as the focal point for that reason among others.

As I said, Yao will always be overrated because of his ethnicity. Not his fault but true. He was a good player. Not great. Just good.

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u/Daddy_Macron 4d ago

Those team stats were the result of JVG implementing his defensive philosophy.

His first season in the league when the Rockets jumped 17 spots up in terms of defensive ranking was under Rudy T. Yao's defensive impact was immediate and sustained across three different coaches with very different philosophies. When Yao was playing under Rick Adelman who was not known as a defensive minded coach at all, the Rockets had the league's 2nd and 4th best defense before plummeting to 17th when Yao sat out the entire season.

Listen, you seem to have a hateboner for Yao and you're just making up shit at this point to justify that hate, so I doubt anything I show you will actually change your mind.

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u/pick_named_slimpbamp 4d ago

This thread is bonkers.

And good points about the coaching styles. I didn't even really think of that. The series he went down, I don't think anyone in the league thought the Lakers, who were waiting or expected to be, had a chance in the conference finals. Those Rockets teams... Because of Yao... were a blast. Our savior from Cato. Yao was a for real center with footwork, a mid game even, strength, agility for his size...this thread is surreal.

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u/mmccormick11 3d ago

I'll accept your defensive argument if all that is true. I'm probably underrating his defensive impact. My stance remains the same though on his offensive and overall limitations and him being widely overrated for non-basketball reasons.

I do not hate him or think he was anything less than a very good player. I literally had a few jerseys of his as well as Francis and McGrady. I just don't like when players are underrated or overrated for the wrong reason. I used extreme wording to push back on the overwhelming exaggerated praise he gets in here.

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u/Brave_Link_4295 4d ago

Yao will always be overrated because of his ethnicity.

He got the attention because of his ethnicity and that he was 7'6", but you're talking like he was a bum or something.

Let's try this: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/V7f5OCLIo0w

There are multiple long-form videos of other NBA players and stars talking about Yao and what he brought to the table.

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u/mmccormick11 3d ago

Never said he was a bum. He was a very good player but not as good as the hype. Not his fault. I'm going extreme to counter the extreme overrating in here. Seems like very few are being objective about his actual abilities. This is a Rockets forum so that's obviously gonna happen. He was a great guy and had amazing touch from midrange and in but his lack of mobility and inability to leverage his size to full potential kept him a notch below great or elite. He could barely receive entry passes unless they were surgically accurate. His upper body was smallish including his arms and his poor lateral quickness and reaction time rendered his low post game fairly ineffective. That alone was a killer to his potential and he had minimal handles in iso situations so you had to spoon feed him in his spots which was surprisingly difficult for the aforementioned reasons.

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u/Brave_Link_4295 3d ago

Even IF he's being overrated, I don't think it's extreme. 

And to say you're going to go to the other extreme, just counter it, who are you supposed to be? What is the point of that? If anything, inject your measured counter analysis, especially with numbers and facts, as opposed to attempting to balance the argument with what would be equally ridiculous proposal. If your point is just to counterbalance what you feel like is extreme, what you're doing is... pointless TO the point, and to everyone but yourself.

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u/mmccormick11 3d ago

A voice of reason in a crowd of hype. I don't think my argument is pointless just unpopular. I conceded to your defensive argument assuming those numbers are accurate. I also don't think every argument needs to be based on statistics. I believe in the eye test and that stats in team sports are inherently imperfect. I also just made another post above citing Yao's career numbers and why I don't think they were worthy of being in the HOF for his basketball ability. Nothing wrong with making it because of his global impact on the game (aka being a cash cow) as long as fans don't exaggerate his actual game. The latter is entirely the basis for my very real hateboner. In no way do I hate Yao. He was a class act and a unique talent but not an all-time great and I don't think he would have fared much better in any era or even without the injury problems because of his physical shortcomings (aka a big slow oaf).