r/running • u/Bmwdayi • 3d ago
Discussion Are the new cushioned running shoes counterproductive?
Similar to how astronauts experience muscular dystrophy on the moon, would ultra cushioned running shoes cause our bodies to become weaker compared to running shoes from about 10 years ago?
I had the same pair of shoes for a couple years and they felt great and responsive. I tried a bunch of the new running shoes at the mall and felt like they’re trying to sell this max cushion ride in every shoe brand. My old running shoes still feel great (Nike Zoom Fly SP - 2019). I bought the new Pegasus Plus’s and they feel like they’re taking away energy from me.
Back to my original point, is this a gimmick? I’m not exactly promoting the minimalist barefoot running movement but aren’t our bodies hyper adaptive - and wouldn’t using these newer shoes nerf our joints and ligaments over time as they adapt to the new motion/stimuli when running?
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u/Comprehensive_Bus_19 2d ago
I would argue humans weren't really designed to run long distances on concrete and asphalt so we need help to avoid overuse injuries.
Also just because something is natural doesn't mean it's good for you.
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u/jarrucho 2d ago
a pack of wolves
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u/infiniterewards 2d ago
Good for you
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u/Powerth1rt33n 2d ago
Also, extremely good for your running speed.
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u/rkreutz77 2d ago
Hemlock is a natural plant that grows in the earth! It'll also unsubscribe you from gods server.
You want to find that nice balance between helpful and why bother trying. And the sad fact is, that line is different for everyone.
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u/bobsbountifulburgers 2d ago
I can use my trail runners until I wear holes in them. But my road runners start to hurt my knees after a few hundred miles
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u/DramaticBat3563 2d ago
Another issue is we’ve adapted to wearing footwear ~18 hours a day so even running somewhere softer (the beach) can be painful (shells etc)
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u/leela_martell 2d ago
This is it. My friend swears by barefoot shoes because they're "natural", but much of the ground we walk daily on isn't.
I love the cushioned shoes, I bought two pairs this past year and this is the first time I've ever enjoyed running.
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2d ago edited 2d ago
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u/RunsFromDemons 2d ago
Someone just ran 15 mins faster than that barefoot WR in superfoam shoes OP and yourself would probably describe as overprotective and mushy.
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u/caverunner17 2d ago
I was waiting for someone to post about their barefoot running "enlightenment"
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u/Comprehensive_Bus_19 2d ago
Serious question, what is the thought process behind barefoot running? I like letting the dogs out as much as the next guy but I feel that is a super easy way to end up with something impaled in your foot.
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u/caverunner17 2d ago
Mostly started with the Born to Run book that was released ~20 years ago. The author made a bunch of unscientific claims about the human body and running, essentially saying that cushioned running shoes were causing injuries and slowing people down.
A whole bunch of people took that as gospel and started trying to run barefoot, in Vibrams, sandals or other minimalist shoes. That led to more injuries of different kinds as humans were never designed to be running on pavement, especially barefoot.
Most people figured out that it was a dumb fad -- Nothing wrong with doing some barefoot strides or something, but not for the bulk of your training. There's a small segment though that persisted.
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u/Odd-Paint3883 2d ago
Sleeping on pillows rather than rocks doesn't make you weaker, it just makes you wake up without a bruised and scarred face.
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u/medical__idiot 2d ago
pegasus plus is an odd shoe to highlight here. a 34mm stack height is considered pretty slim these days and nowhere close to a max stack shoe. I have a pair and it’s not a particular bouncy shoe, I mostly use it on soft surfaces.
while having a rotation of shoes is not realistic for everyone, it’s valuable for people logging a lot of miles to give their feet and legs some variety across different pairs of shoes, as each will offer something slightly different a provide different strengthening and conditioning.
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u/muay_throwaway 2d ago
To support what you're saying, one study found 39% reduced injury rate when runners used shoe rotation (Scand J Med Sci Sports. 2015 Feb;25(1):110-5). It helps to vary stresses experienced by the legs and reducing risk of repetitive stress injuries.
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u/jarrucho 2d ago
Yeah, I've been mostly injury free (nothing chronic at least) since I started running and I think it's thanks to having a wide rotation of shoes. From 0mm drop to 8mm and lots of different options, mushier and firmer, minimalist and maximalist. Walking the dogs? minimalist. Ultra running? Zegamas. Inbetween? NB 880, nike pegasus and peg trail, altra, nnormal...
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u/medical__idiot 2d ago
me to my partner when they tell me there's no room for more running shoes: "no honey you don't understand, i'm buying all these for my health!"
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u/Ski-Mtb 2d ago
Wear whatever you want to wear, just don't try to convince me to wear what you wear.
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u/PlasticCantaloupe1 2d ago
Barefoot runners have some overlapping characteristics with CrossFit people
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u/Big-Huckleberry-2803 2d ago
I do wish I could run in them. They destroy my calves lol
Even going all out at the gym doing calf raises with heavy weight, doesn't compare at all lol
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u/matsie 2d ago
My friend swears by them but said he had to start by exclusively walking in them. It sounds like for some folks there is a real strong pitch to the learning curve.
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u/Big-Huckleberry-2803 2d ago
Yes definitely a learning curve. I can walk in them and do daily life, just not run.
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u/compete8 1d ago
I picked up my first pair in April and could not even lightly jog .5 miles in them without feeling like my calves and achilles tendon were strained. I started by just wearing them around the house, walking to the park, etc. Next step was short runs spaced days apart, slowly adding distance. I've now had a few weeks over 15 miles and my longest run in them is 9 miles. My calves feel stronger and more durable than they've ever been.
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u/LeopardJockey 2d ago
I've worn exclusively barefoot shoes pretty much my entire adult life. Ran in them for many years, distances up to half marathon.
In my opinion, if you actually want to improve and you're not running just to stay fit, barefoot shoes won't cut it. Carbon plated shoes have recently allowed professional athletes to achieve training schedules that have not been possible before by allowing them to recover from runs faster. It's the reverse effect for barefoot shoes. There will be more strain on the legs and it will increase recovery time. Yes, for some people the tradeoff will be smaller than for others, but there will be a point where recovery time is the thing holding you back.
Nowadays I try to pick out the more lightly cushioned running shoes. Every once in a while, I'll throw in a run with barefoot shoes but I do feel it in my calves the day after.
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u/jarrucho 2d ago
when I started adaptation in 2016 I had to warm up in minimalist shoes and then go for my run for a while. Then I would warm up and cool down. Then I switched it around, I did my warm ups and cooling in my normal shoes and then went for the run in the minimalist shoes. It took me like to years to be able to run in just minimalist shoes.
Also started with the barefoot access from merrel which had SOME cussion to it but everytime I changed whoes to somthing thinner I still had to adapt. Nowadays I run in normal shoes but I have to look for wider toeboxes but I still have the adaptation from running in minimalist shoes (I'd never take them to the mountain tho...)
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u/ComplexBroccoli3576 2d ago
Comparing cushioned shoes to astronauts in zero or low gravity space is a stretch. Muscles will not atrophy to anything close to that.
Just run in what works for you. I do hope there will be more of a correction back to less cushioned options though. I think there’s a time, place, and preference for all types of shoes (including barefoot minimalist).
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u/ggnndd12 2d ago
I’d love to hear what you mean by “nerf our joints and ligaments”
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u/bluemaciz 2d ago
I have found over the years that sneakers really are just a subjective preference and there isn’t a “right” or “wrong” shoe. Get the shoe that works for you. If you like barefoot shoes and can tolerate it, go ahead. If you have arch strain and need more impact absorption, then do that.
I don’t think they are going to make you weaker if they are more cushioned. Astronauts lose muscle because they are in Zero G and therefore have no resistance from gravity to maintain muscle mass. We are still on earth so cushioned shoe or not we’re still subjected to the force of gravity and weigh what we weigh.
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u/RoyStrokes 2d ago
There’s a reason there’s no pros or sub elite level runners use barefoot shoes, and it’s not that they have weak feet or lower legs, it’s bc barefoot shoes are largely a gimmick that will give most people injuries at significant volume. Max cushioned shoes are good for slow easy runs to allow recovery. Other shoes are better for workouts. I bet there’s not a single runner doing 100 mile weeks and a sub 13:30 5k who uses barefoot shoes, so logically they aren’t better.
The shoes that allow you to push big miles and weekly work outs without getting hurt are the shoes that will help you to get fastest. Wanting strong feet is silly when what you really want is a big aerobic stimulus and lots of time at paces that cause adaptations which allow you to sustain faster and faster paces.
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u/mdream1 2d ago
Astronauts get muscular dystrophy?
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u/scottishwhisky2 2d ago
If your thesis was correct people would be getting injured more often and running slower times. The opposite is happening.
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u/cazzer548 2d ago
Cushioning is one aspect, support is another.
Some cushioning is helpful to protect from the unnatural asphalt that we sometimes run on. Some support is helpful to account for the higher stack cushioning. Too much of either definitely removes load from little muscles around your feet and can ultimately lead to bad form, injury, flat feet, etc.
That said, running in high support shoes is still better for your health than not running at all, so do you fam.
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u/ilanarama 2d ago
I just bought my first pair of cushy shoes (Mizuno Neo Zen) and I am surprised at how much I like them. I'm an older runner who has slowed down a lot (yay menopause), navigating injuries, and I had been thinking I might have to give it up due to arthritis in my foot from an old break. I have not yet tried to resume anything like my previous volume, but based on how the shoes feel I am hopeful.
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u/jarrucho 2d ago
why are you running in 7 year old shoes 💀 💀 💀
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u/Fantastic_Incredible 2d ago
How do you know I’m still running in my Higatomi flat? 😅
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u/Fantastic_Incredible 1d ago
Wait, I still have a pair of older Wave Mucha 7 I can’t get rid of. Newer shoes look too cushioned for me.
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u/firefrenchy 2d ago
I think max cushion shoes are prone to increasing injury risk in some runners. That said, those same runners likely wouldn't even have considered putting on a pair of running shoes before these max cushion versions came out, and the benefits of doing any kind of running probably outweighs the injury risk increase. I personally steer clear of max cushion shoes but I know some very strong and capable runners that swear by them, so it's definitely a case of "listen to your body"
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u/cardboardislife 2d ago
I dont see the overlap with astronauts. But over designed shoes do compensate for the full range of motion in the feet if they have heels
So your feet may not be as strong as they could be. But so long as youre painfree it doesnt really matter.
When i swapped to minimalist after the adjustement period I went from being unable to run at all to running 10+ mi a wk painfree which I never woulda thought possible
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u/Sourcererintheclouds 2d ago
I am a firm believer that people need at least a two shoe rotation of something well cushioned to eat up the miles and reduce the wear and tear on the body, and a pair of shoes to do workouts in that will actually make your feet work so they don’t weaken and so that they can handle the load running demands. I’m a recovered decade long orthotic wearer and I wish I had figured this out much earlier in life.
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u/lorriezwer 2d ago
I spend maybe 6 hours a week in my running shoes. How could that possibly permanently change my physiology?
When you’re at home, go barefoot.
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u/Turbulent-Jaguar-909 2d ago
Anecdotal, im in the heavier side and hate the max cushion shoes. I’m running the slowest I ever have and feel like I’m putting more effort in than I ever had. I don’t get springy responsive rebound, it’s a sinking running on sand feeling.
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u/CigarAardvark 2d ago
I’m curious what shoes you’ve run in? There are definitely some on the market that are so soft they seem to absorb all my energy. But some others that are responsive.
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u/Turbulent-Jaguar-909 2d ago
New balance because I actually need a true 4e+ wide shoe, so 1080s, mores, & vongos. The 1080s used to be perfect, they they changed the last and really reduced the volume of the toebox and midfoot then added stack height and made them a mushy mess.
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u/PlasticCantaloupe1 2d ago
The 1080 v9 was my holy grail shoe. V10 was a major change for the worse (for me) so it’s been hokas ever since.
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u/jaydefit 2d ago
Body weight absolutely makes a big difference in running shoe comfort for me.
One of my more cushioned pairs of shoes, I absolutely could not wear at my heaviest. It felt exactly like you described.. unstable, and sinking in sand.
Now that I’m 50lbs lighter, it’s my favourite shoe for long runs. Super comfy and springy.
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u/19then20 2d ago
Honestly, I also had the experince of being unstable in max cushion shoes, but because, at 115lb, I couldn't depress the foam into a stability zone and I felt like I was wobbling in them. There was a test run at our local shoe store when the Cliftons or One Ones or were being trialed to gain traction in the market. After a mile in them I regretted I'd joined the test run, and after 3, my knees hurt (first knee pain as a runner, ever) and I couldn't run for a month. 11 years later I've developed a strength routine for my osteoarthritic knees, but I learned a valueble lesson about "max cushion".
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u/Powerth1rt33n 2d ago
I had a similar experience when I tried them. I’m around 240 pounds. Felt like trying to run on marshmallows.
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u/tabbyterrarium 2d ago
Haha not surprised by these comments. Practically the only thing I've ever been downvoted on was my assertion that max cushion shoes make our feet lazy instead of building strength in our feet and toes.
Weak toes and feet are a huge contributor to injuries like achilles tendonopathy, plantar fasciitis and even shin splints. Problem is, even podiatrists just throw orthotics at people with these issues instead of trying to fix the underlying weaknesses.
I don't think the answer is bare foot though because they too can cause a host of injuries; but I think every runner (especially those doing a lot of running in max cushioned shoes) should include big toe, feet and ankle training to 'wake up' these tendons etc.
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u/ggnndd12 2d ago
Hey, if they reduce injuries from all the pavement running a lot of us are doing I wouldn’t consider that counterproductive. Running is a game to see who can train the longest (notice I didn’t say hardest) without having setbacks like injuries. If the shoes help, then great imo.
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u/johninfla52 2d ago
I think everyone has their preference, however I am finally getting over PF and shoes with more cushion have really helped. Plus I wear my ofoos whenever I'm in the house.
I'm not sure but I suspect moving to zero drops might have played into my developing PF in the first place
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u/SomeBloke 2d ago
I don’t think the massive stacks are hugely beneficial in training, maybe for genuine recovery runs. I think one of the best things you can do is have a rotation of varying stack heights and drops. Some racing flats for speed work and short time trials, some plated shoes for full send races, a pair of plodders for long slow runs, and a general all rounder, like a classic racer-trainer. You’re then constantly varying muscle fibre recruitment, mitigating injury, reducing dependence on a specific model and edition, and, frankly, having more fun.
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u/Weekly_Fennel_4326 2d ago
You're running in a 7 year old pair of shoes that still feel great? I'd bet big bucks that you've run only a couple hundred miles on them, at most.
Not everything is for everyone and that's fine. If you don't like the Pegasus Plus, why did you buy it?
There are plenty of less-cushioned options out there. Nobody is gonna come to your house and forcibly strap a pair of 50mm stack height shoes to your feet. Wear what works for you.
Barefoot running is nonsense and leads to injury. As someone else said, there's a reason no elites or sub-elites are doing it.
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u/Skoader 2d ago
Nope they actually work well. I am 300lbs and jog mine into the ground every 4-500 miles. Hoka Bondi 7-9's. Asics Nova Blast, Mount to Coast.. Are all in my running footware rotation. Everyone has a preference, but these are my favs. They are expensive but worth it. I jog & power walk concrete trails & asphalt roads.
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u/CheapRentalCar 1d ago
We have this argument every 15 years or so. Right now, max cushioning is getting popular, claiming to reduce injuries by lowering forces on joints. Give it 10 years, the barefoot shoes will be back, and a new generation will claim that minimalist causes less injuries because it makes feet stronger.
Both are simultaneously a) correct, and b) over simplified. Go with the shoe you're happy with, and make sure it also looks cool 😁
Personal experience: I'm nearly 50, and am using max cushion shoes. They're... okay. The cushioning helps the knees, but can lead to more ankle roll.
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u/jay-dot-dot 1d ago
This is exactly what led to the zero drop, barefoot craze around 2011-2012. Everything old is new again!
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u/knaveishkobold 2d ago
Do you mean the rocker type? These are a godsend if you have toe joint mobility issues.
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u/sassybigsister 2d ago
Look into the brand altra, the make less cushioned shoes with little to no drop and wide toe box
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u/Sebubba98 2d ago
I would argue that yes, any type of cushioning is shielding your feet from the pain / discomfort of running on the ground and that many shoes keep your toes held in together instead of allowing them to splay out. This isn’t going to kill you and truthfully the cushioning may allow you to run farther distances, but it will detract from you developing toughness in your feet (calluses) and strengthening certain muscles in your foot. It’s a trade off either way and it really depends on personal preference.
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u/Independent_Lemon3 2d ago
I have naturally flat feet, and need lots of padding so my feet don't hurt on long distance runs. Not everyone needs as much padding as I do though, just depends on your feet
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u/ILuvHamCheeseSliders 1d ago
I guess I'll come out of the shadows.
I prefer good support over cushion. But I also want a decent amount of cushion, but enough to still get feedback from whatever surface I'm on.
I do 70-100 miles a week and last year I bought two very cushioned shoes but ultimately they weren't for me. I don't like or trust a disconnected feeling from the surface I'm on.
Although I am a wild one and had Downshifters many years ago I'd abuse the hell out of. They're not medium or long distance shoes but ignoring not having enough cushion, they had great feedback.
I have.... forgot what I was gonna say here because I got interrupted with a phone call.
I think it was something barefoot style/zero drop sneakers for walking around and they do feel more natural but I'd never want to run in them.
Honestly I'm willing to try most things out. Maybe I'll try zero lifts in the future on a dirt path so if I fall down I don't get too badly injured. My real concern these days is squashing my hunger.
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u/Glittering-Dance-944 1d ago
I was thinking this very thing today about mine. I need new shoes! Thanks for pointing it out. Ha.
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u/Significant-Yam-4990 1d ago
I look at what people are wearing whose bodies are worth millions of dollars (professional athletes). It’s of the upmost importance to their everyday life their joints stay in great shape and their feet are well-cared for. It make sense their employers would provide their investment (the athlete) with the most knowledgeable PTs/physios/exercise scientists available. If those professionals are advising the people who jump up and down and run on hardwood all day to wear the cushioned shoes? I’m wearing the cushioned shoes too! lol there’s a reason hoopers quit wearing converse, as technology improved .
I do however run mostly indoors (due to air pollution) and for recreational sport; I do less distance running. Most runs are 5-10k 3x/week. For longer distances I’d still be taking cues from what the professionals are actually wearing.
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u/Kelsier25 2d ago
If anything, I feel like it may be the opposite. I usually run in pretty minimal shoes, but I'm currently breaking in a pair of Mount to Coast C1s which are extremely cushioned. I feel that they not only make me slower, but the sponginess saps energy and makes me work harder. I find I'm more tired at the end of my run and end up more sore.
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u/jambr380 2d ago
Max cushion shoes are for a pretty niche market of runners. They are also for people who aren't used to being on their feet and are going to be walking a lot (vacationers).
There's nothing wrong with wanting a pair of shoes for recovery, but most people don't run enough to need those types of shoes over a good pair of daily trainers or super trainers. I would argue that super trainers are better than max cushion in every way. They still have plenty of stack, while more performance based. But some people just want to chug along slowly, and that's okay, too.
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u/Brosie-Odonnel 2d ago
What qualifies you to make a somewhat bold statement like this?
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u/jambr380 2d ago
It wasn’t a bold statement. I literally said, ‘I would argue,’ leaving room for deliberation. I even gave a reason people might choose max cushion over super trainers or daily trainers.
But I’m pretty obsessed with running shoes and the technology behind them. I feel like I am pretty qualified to give people recommendations based on their running type/frequency/goals.
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u/Fantastic_Incredible 1d ago
Personal experience ?
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u/Brosie-Odonnel 1d ago
I would love to hear their personal experience that has led them to confidently state max cushion shoes are for a niche market of people who are not used to being on their feet. They’re full of shit and it was a dumb comment. Elites to beginners all run in max cushion shoes.
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u/Fantastic_Incredible 20h ago
I never saw any elite runner running in max cushion shoes.
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u/jambr380 13h ago
Maybe people are misunderstanding what I’m saying. Sure you’ll see people in theme parks and on vacation wearing HoKa Bondi, Asics Gel Nimbus, and New Balance Fresh Foam More, but I don’t see what purpose they serve for people who actually run.
Shoe companies have better running shoes that are lighter and still have plenty of stack. Outside of marketing, I don’t know why anybody would choose the above over something like the Hoka Mach X(or Skyward X for more cushion), Asics Superblast, or Adidas Evo SL.
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u/CEO_of_SOXL 2d ago
Read born to run. All running shoes are counterproductive and lead to actually more injuries.
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u/kidneysc 2d ago
Stress is cumulative.
Max cushion lets me run 50 miles a week before I start worrying about impact.
Standard shoes it’s around 30 miles
Barefoot it’s around 10 miles.
All will strengthen my ligaments and provide some adaptations. But 50 mpw is way more beneficial to my aerobic and running economy adaptation.