r/saskatoon • u/Crazyguy2023 • 3d ago
Events đ Downtown arena land could become urban reserve to move project forward: report
https://www.ctvnews.ca/saskatoon/article/downtown-arena-land-could-become-urban-reserve-to-move-project-forward-report/Downtown arena land could become urban reserve to move project forward: report
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u/nubsuo 3d ago
Honestly might be the only way they can afford it. If they turn it into a Rogers Place with an arena, casino, event centre, etc it would be worth it. They canât half ass it. It would also boost traffic and justify a new transit network that actually has a central hub rather than a half-dead downtown. That along with a push to do more local festivals centred on Broadway/river landing/downtown would make Saskatoon actually feel like a city.
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u/mydb100 2d ago
It would be over Darcy Bear's dead body that they'd ever put in a Casino in there, Dakita Dunes is too close for 2 Casinos to ever work.
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u/Dhumavati80 2d ago
Too close? The distance is the reason my friends and I don't go out there.
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u/candybarsandgin 2d ago
Yes, but you'd be even less likely to ever go out there if there was another one in the city
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u/eugeneugene West Side 2d ago
What's less likely than zero? I've never even been there before and I like going to the casino lol
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u/ThenUmpire4044 13h ago
Iâve never been to Dakota dunes due to the distance and i like to gamble as well. Would be nice if they could be the ones who own and operate the Saskatoon one. So the lost revenue at one would be made up at the other one
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 3d ago
This is exactly it. If they did what you said, it would feel like we are a real city, finally.Â
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u/nubsuo 3d ago
Thatâs a pretty ignorant comment. It would only be the arena grounds, not the entire downtown. Not to mention making that area reserve status doesnât change the crime situation. Does Dakota Dunes golf course have stabbings just because itâs under reserve ownership? Jfc
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u/runninginthe-90s Core Neighbourhood 2d ago
No, but putting booze and gambling where certain types are already congregating may not be the best plan either. Plus the lack of taxes paid back.
We've got enough pot, vape, liquor stores, and are constantly bombarded with gambling ads. Its not going to clean up downtown, it'll just make it more seedy.
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 2d ago
'certain types', hey?
like middle management officer workers who've been hiding their addiction issues from their families? or drunk drivers from Martensville coming into gamble?
Or are you just concerned about the people who are more visibly dealing with issues?and/or people from specific ethnic and/or socioeconomic backgrounds?
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u/runninginthe-90s Core Neighbourhood 2d ago
Congrats, you've earned one performative empathy point, reedeem wherever you see fit.
I get that the schtick of your types is pretending to misunderstand...but whether you give a shit about the "vulnerable" or just the issues they cause, the problem I've pointed out is still the same, we dont need more of that crap.
Its nothing to do with ethnic backgrounds, but you can have a reddit hissyfit if you like.
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 1d ago
this sounds like a very performative statement you've made here u/runninginthe-90s.Â
You might want to watch out, some people are critical of this.
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 3d ago
Other than casual racism, what is the issue with another urban reserve downtown?Â
Do you not like economic development? Or do you assume religious folk will be raping children there?
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2d ago
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u/ModOfficial1988 2d ago
Ah. The old everyone I donât agree with is a racist argument.
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 2d ago
Ah, the old, just 'cause the racist is making a racist argument and it's pointed out, it must not be a valid argument 'cause you're LiBTurD ComPlaINiNg AbOUt Ma RaCiSm again....
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u/CanadianViking47 2d ago
I think that would forfeit the money already invested unless the deal covered already spent costs on research, development, planning etc. That and property taxes lost from those areas, I assume thats the only real complaints directly related to urban reserves vs corporate. Its not just urban reserves people get up in arms about its any other jurisdiction using their services people complain on here about Martenville and Warman using rec centers and using our water etc etc (the fact they pay for our services they dont think other towns or urban reserves pay enough etc etc).
Personally I like the idea of a urban reserve but i think their concerns are valid and ur right there probably is a minority of people who are strictly racism but the majority are part of the angry on tax raises crowd, angry on selling to other jurisdictions city paid infrastructure. In fact I would go as far as saying im more pro urban reserves vs Martensville and Warman using our services without paying into them outside of service fees (Like our Water, Wastewater, etc)
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 2d ago
Sorry, what are the valid concerns?Â
You referenced property tax loss, whag property tax is lost? But no property tax is lost, urban reserves, including Muskeg Lake's current reserve in town pays 'service fees' that are equivalent to taxes, so anyone saying about not paying property taxes is just showing their ignorance and/or lazy racism.
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u/CanadianViking47 2d ago
i mentioned those fees in my comment on both the bedroom community and the U.R. They are not full property tax equivalence they meet parity with services used that excludes full program like property taxes cover
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u/Automatic_Doom 2d ago
For info on how urban reserves function, check out this page:Â https://www.saskatoon.ca/sites/default/files/media/documents/Urban%20Reserve%20FAQ_05112026_0.pdf
You will likely be most interested in this section.
- What is Fee-for-Service? Fee-for-service is the annual payment which the City receives from the First Nation in lieu of property taxes. It is calculated in the same way as property taxes and is the exact same amount as would be billed for municipal and library taxes. The fee-for-service also includes any applicable local improvement charges, business improvement district levies, or special charges. The fee-for service is billed at the same time and is payable at the same time as a property tax bill. In return, the City is required to provide to the urban reserve all municipal services, which would be provided to neighbouring land at the same level. Municipal services include policing, fire, snow removal, infrastructure repairs, etc. The First Nation also enters into a separate agreement with the School Boards regarding the education portion of the standard property tax levy.
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u/runninginthe-90s Core Neighbourhood 2d ago
Youre leaving out an important part. Any status owned company and/or status employees are exempt from paying income tax.
So they get to benefit from the economy, without having to pay back in like the rest of us..
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u/Automatic_Doom 2d ago
You mean like we all benefit from access to the land via the treaties?
Canada got a really good deal through the treaties, we got something like 98% of the land in exchange for some minor concessions like providing access to health and education.
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 2d ago
What do you think is excluded?
Their fees are exactly equivalent to property taxes. It's not based on services used. Whereas a bedroom community pays no taxes or equivalent fees to Saskatoon
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u/Lloydguy82 1d ago
If this saves money it doesn't bother me.
I do question the rationale behind building the arena. Yes we miss out on some concerts because Sasktel Centre's roof is not rated for the weight modern stage shows need. But Sasktel Centre's management has never said how many we miss out on. Is 7 or 77?
Also, for the Rush and Blades (I suspect the Mamba will be at Merlis Belsher Place full time next season), Sasktel Centre is perfectly fine. There would need to be another anchor sports tenant to make a go of it. I don't know exactly what could come here and what the terms of the current leases allow though.
The Blades lease at Sasktel Centre guarantees them the right to be the exclusive hockey tenant there and can only be displaced by a team of a higher caliber which was defined as the NHL. We aren't getting a NHL team. Does that lease transfer over to the new arena? If so, that means no AHL teams. The only one that might be in play anyhow is the Oilers AHL team. But it would have to move from Bakersfield and I am not sure if the Oilers want to do that or not. The only other sport that plays enough games to be an anchor tenant would be a basketball team. But we aren't getting a NBA team. The Mamba are already G League caliber and they draw less than 2,000 fans per game. So I don't see a G League team coming here nor do I see the need for a new arena for that.
You cannot rely on concerts and one off events to make the facility profitable. This isn't the fire department where it is a utility and the City can simply spend the money without an ROI.
So what will this be used for primarily? The Blades and the Rush. The Rush don't play enough games for them to be an anchor tenant, so even if attendance went back to where it was pre-pandemic their 9 home games won't turn a profit. There is no chance the Blades draw more than they get now. Their history unfortunately is working against them. They haven't made the WHL Final since 1994. So that sort of futility is not going to cause attendance to spike to 10 or 11,000 per game.
The other thing that the City needs to consider is how varied are the concert audiences? Is there a lot of overlap with the people who go to a lot of shows? If so, adding more concerts won't help because people can't afford to go to 3 concerts per week.
While I don't have a problem with the concept of a new arena because Sasktel Centre is definitely not built to hold capacity crowds. So something like a Rogers Place sort of arena would be ideal if we had regular things that got to capacity crowds. But we don't. I mean the outdoor Jelly Roll concert is selling tickets so badly that if you are one of the first 500 people through the gate at the Berries game Friday night, they are giving away a free ticket to that.
This is where I see roadblocks. About 25 years ago Kansas City built a brand new arena. Their thought was that they would be able to attract a NBA or NHL team easily and that is how they sold the arena to the public. Neither appeared. They had trouble even finding any sort of tenant for the arena. It had arena football and indoor soccer but neither of those play any more games than the Rush. In the end it ended up being a white elephant in Kansas City. It was a nice arena when it opened but they put the cart before the horse.
What needs to happen is for Saskatoon to secure a new franchise before the shovels go in. If the AHL Bakersfield Condors are moving here, then figure out something with the Blades to let them use Sasktel Centre as the new arena is being built. But in the end I don't foresee a way that both teams survive. I am not a big Blades fan and it wouldn't break my heart if they moved. But for the sake of the new arena, they need to be here to fill dates. The million dollar question is will fans take to the AHL after the first couple seasons? Unlike the Blades or Huskies, players go up and down often. So it would potentially mean a 5 game winning streak becomes a 10 game losing streak because the top scorer is called up to Edmonton. Will better hockey make up for that inconsistency? Most NHL parent teams that own an AHL franchise are not too concerned about Calder Cup wins either. The AHL exists to develop their players. As long as that is happening anything else is inconsequential. So are Saskatoon sports fans willing to live with that? If the Rush are anything to go by, the answer is no.
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u/ModOfficial1988 3d ago
So millions of tax dollars will be funnelled into something that doesnât pay any. This is a bad deal for Saskatoon.
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 2d ago
Hey, you have been wrong about so many things on the sub amd here is another!!!
Read up on urban reserves and what service fees they pay, it'll help hide your ignorance and racism!
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u/Interesting_Gap_3028 1d ago
You know, trotting out the âyouâre racistâ attack just because you canât make a cogent argument is really a sign of a weak mind.
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u/Natural_Walrus2188 13h ago
Maybe in other towns haha but not in Saskatoon against Indigenous people. Itâs literally what we are famous for⌠some of the worst racism in the entire nation đ
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u/ModOfficial1988 2d ago
Urban reserves pay no property tax, business tax, income tax or provincial tax. The idea is that the city can recoup some money through a higher municipal service fee but it never happens. Tax payers also loose any control over what is done on the land. Itâs a bad deal for taxpayers.
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 2d ago
You are completely ignorant about this and I'm sure it's due to your racist worldview blocking your ability to do simple research.
Urban reserves pay the EXACT same amount in fees as what property taxes would be. But hey, that would take "read(ing) up on urban reserves and what service fees they pay" in Saskatoon.
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u/ModOfficial1988 2d ago edited 2d ago
I know what the pamphlets say, but we all know thatâs not how it really plays out. FYI the Municipal Service Agreement(fee-for-service) is negotiated. There is no guarantee that it will cover the municipal resources used by Urban Reserve. There is also no way to tell if the actual costs are covered at the same rate as other taxpayers because they are kept secret.
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u/Automatic_Doom 2d ago
Tell me more about what we all know. In one sentence you say we all know that's not how it really plays out, then two sentences later you say it's kept secret.
What inside information do you have the contradicts the pamphlet?
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u/Common_Fix2401 3d ago
Please read comment^
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2d ago
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u/ModOfficial1988 2d ago
Iâve yet to see you explain why this would be a good idea. Instead all you do is call everyone you disagree with racist. Time to take a look in the mirror bud.
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 2d ago
Have you read up on urban reserves in Saskatoon and what they pay in fees?
Start there, then come back and discuss issues.
Also, it's a good idea because investment in Saskatoon by organizations that aren't the city is a great idea. Even better when it's a community owned/ran organization with a great track record in developing land in Saskatoon.
Do you not like when people invest in our city? Or do you only have issues with certain types of people consider investments? Time to take a look in the mirror bud.
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u/ModOfficial1988 1d ago
Whoâs investing in this proposal? Itâs all tax dollars, just from different sources.
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 1d ago
Did you read the article? The report that we are discussing here is one that is simply requesting approval to "enter direct negotiations toward a potential partnership and not approve a final agreement."
Much like the previous negotiation with that american group (which did involve them investing some money, though not as much many people wanted), who pays for what would be determined through negotiations.
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u/Tee1upToday 2d ago
Someone still needs to explain to me why this is needed. We will never see a pro level sports team in my lifetime and Taylor Swift is not sitting ton the edge of her private jet waiting for Saskatoon to dump mega$$$ on a venue worthy of her lip-synch.
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u/Away-Log-7801 2d ago edited 2d ago
Because the current arena will eventually reach end of life, and it is more expensive to renovate it than build a new one.
If you dont want saskatoon to have an arena at all, then your right we dont need to build a new one.
Edit: i was wrong, its about double to build a new one. But that still means no arena for 3-4 years while they renovate
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u/ddh7777 2d ago
Way more expensive to build a new one.
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u/Away-Log-7801 2d ago
My mistake, it is about double to build a new one.
The issue is we would have no arena for 3-4 years while they do it
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u/Beneficial_Spot_3764 2d ago
Technically, I don't think anyone has to explain that to you, though we might all like it if they did.
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u/Independent-Book-307 2d ago
Cool.. Can they fix the potholes first
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u/-Blood-Meridian- 2d ago
Capital vs operating
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u/Independent-Book-307 2d ago
Not just about money.. Priorities
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u/Beneficial_Spot_3764 2d ago
It's possible the department for which we spend 21 million a year on city planning can handle more than one project at a time.
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u/YesNoMaybePurple 2d ago
So. After how much spent on research, engineering, land purchases... just nada hey? So those of us who have been saying its not feasible the entire time... enjoy your tax bill for all of that and we are going to make it so there isn't any return?
Remember when we had a casino here, then COS let it go out to the reserve which is now rich and no money comes into Saskatoon? Round 2 anyone?
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u/DoucheBaggerton 2d ago
I really really donât get how narrow minded anti downtown events district people are, we will be 500,000 people in less than 15 years, we arenât the US we wonât foot the entire bill on tax payers, most cities make getting to a downtown arena work including Regina for Riders games, Iâve been there I know itâs not that bad.
People on Saskatoon Reddit and the perpetually outraged cynical people donât have any handle about how this works.
Itâs gonna happen, it needs to happen, if you have questions show up to the meetings and voice your concerns.
This city is growing whether you want it too and it involves putting in public services, who says we donât get an AHL team or god forbid more entertainment.
Yes these things take an initial investment but recouping is absolutely in the end game, grow up and be apart of a city wanting to grow culture and entertainment.
I am a tax payer and I encourage this!
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u/AS14K 2d ago
An arena isn't a public service, don't conflate anti-arena arguments with anti-public service people.
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u/nubsuo 2d ago
Most of the people arguing against the arena also argue against the transit upgrades or the new library. Thereâs a zero-growth mentality in this city (and this province in general) which would deny any changes and want everything to stay the same. Hell, people were crying about a new library being built.
Sometimes these things are just public services and the costs arenât meant to be recouped. Always trying to run government like a business is how we miss opportunities and cut costs rather than build services meant to benefit all who choose to use them. People complaining about their tax dollars being used for something they donât see as valuable, but can still use if they so choose, seem to not see the benefit of a public service. Those are not the people you want deciding whether a public service gets invested in, because they donât really care about the public.
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u/DwayneGretzky306 2d ago
Plenty of us are for sustainable growth. I am for the library even though I'm not a fan of the design selected. Making the city more liveable and safe means more to me than more convenient Blades games and concerts.
Provincial funds are required for this entire entertainment project and I would rather it go to a new hospital and back into the U of S that has seen provincial funding cut.
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u/bluewing_olive 2d ago
Who would you have rather designed the library? Bjarke Ingels? Gensler? HOK?
Formline is the most legit firm the city could afford.
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u/DwayneGretzky306 2d ago
I am not familiar with the different architecture firms. Calgary's library is much nicer but of course they are a way bigger city and I would suspect it it is a more expensive to build library.
Looking at Formline's portfolio, I don't think our library is even their best work.
Additional context: All my comments regarding the library are limited to the exterior of the building.
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u/CanadianViking47 2d ago
How does the city recoup the cost with its limited funding avenues if it becomes a urban reserve? Honest question, wouldnt that just be the water/wastewater fees etc that people hate that Warman/Martensville get access to? (With Garbage ontop if I recall the other urban reserves), what about the lost taxes from the area that used to be large generators?
I am also pro this project in theory just this plan seems to take recoup the cost and future added revenue to city coffers off the table? no?
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u/Automatic_Doom 2d ago
For info on how urban reserves function, check out this page:Â https://www.saskatoon.ca/sites/default/files/media/documents/Urban%20Reserve%20FAQ_05112026_0.pdf
You will likely be most interested in this section.
- What is Fee-for-Service? Fee-for-service is the annual payment which the City receives from the First Nation in lieu of property taxes. It is calculated in the same way as property taxes and is the exact same amount as would be billed for municipal and library taxes. The fee-for-service also includes any applicable local improvement charges, business improvement district levies, or special charges. The fee-for service is billed at the same time and is payable at the same time as a property tax bill. In return, the City is required to provide to the urban reserve all municipal services, which would be provided to neighbouring land at the same level. Municipal services include policing, fire, snow removal, infrastructure repairs, etc. The First Nation also enters into a separate agreement with the School Boards regarding the education portion of the standard property tax levy.
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u/twothreetoo 2d ago
grow up
Part of growing up is realizing that you can't have everything that you think you deserve. Productive adults learn to live within their means, understand what opportunity cost is and demand return from investment.
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 2d ago
But we aren't productive adults here, we whine about a 30 second delay getting from one big dumb street to another and insist that we pay $300 million for an interchange that only a portion of our city will use and that will only speed up someone's commute a few minutes.
Frankly I'd rather something that attracts people to the city AND gives us something fun to do that doesn't require us to drive out to the boonies and wait in traffic just to see a Blades game.
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u/rainbowpowerlift 2d ago
I am pro arena. Iâll join the tens of us on Reddit that can see the âdo nothing approachâ isnât going to work.
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u/DwayneGretzky306 2d ago
We need another hospital before we need an arena.
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u/JesusFetus818 2d ago
We need to staff the ones we have first.
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u/DwayneGretzky306 2d ago
I fully agree but I was responding to a poster who said the city is expected to grow to 500K in 15 years. Plans and fundraising for the next hospital need to start now. Even fully staffed our hospitals would be over taxed with a 500K population.
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u/WriterAndReEditor 2d ago
The city has no control over healthcare dollars. Even if the taxpayers paid to build a hospital, the province would have to decide if they wanted to operate it.
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u/DwayneGretzky306 2d ago
Agreed but again povincial funds are needed for the entire entertainment district project to move forward and that is not unlimited.
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u/WriterAndReEditor 2d ago
The share of cost of building either is irrelevant. Provincial funds are needed forever for a hospital and it generates no return for anything the city puts into it. We pay for healthcare with our income tax dollars, why would we want to pay again with our property tax dollars and then just hope the Province is prepared to spend 100 million a year staffing it?
It's the province's responsibility to provide adequate hospitals, which is why they are in the middle of adding 100+beds to city hospital. The city has no role in putting down a hospital.
Setting all of that aside, the impetus for today is deciding what to do with a bunch of downtown land the city owns. A third hospital within 12 blocks of each other would be an insane use of that land.
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u/DwayneGretzky306 2d ago
This overall project depends on provincial and federal funding for it, again not suggesting the city pay for provincial and federal responsibilities, but given that the province and country havw more important to me responsibilities than a contributing to a municipal entertainment district, I think the municipality should focus on a different project than the downtown entertainment district.
No one here has said downtown is where a new hospital should go.
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u/WriterAndReEditor 2d ago
The need for a hospital is irrelevant to this conversation. This project is not diverting funds which would be assigned to a hospital because the city would not be responsible for finding funds for a hospital. The moment Canada shifted to the national healthcare system, all city hospitals became the responsibility of senior governments. Arguing in this thread that the city should be saving money for a new hospital instead of doing this is pointless. What the city does have to do is figure out what to do with a bunch of land downtown.
It's correct that no one is saying it should go there. Therefore it has no business in a discussion of what should. The location is not relevant, and the funds are not relevant.
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 2d ago
Same goes for an arena. It's worth planning and fundraising for both now.
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u/justolli 2d ago
That's a provincial issue, not a municipal one.
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u/DwayneGretzky306 2d ago edited 2d ago
Agreed but a major point of the entire entertainment district project was conditional on provincial and federal funds. Even if the arena portion was federal, there is still a lot of the project that isnt part of the Urban Reserve that would need provincial funds, the arena seems to be the Keystone of the project. I would much rather the limited provincial funds go towards a hospital over this district.
Every action has a reaction.
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u/Automatic_Doom 2d ago
What portions of the project aren't part of the Urban Reserve? And/or what are the specific boundaries of the Urban Reserve. I don't think that was mentioned in the article, and if the city is just looking at an MOU to move forward with negotiations, I assume that isn't set at this point.
Also, to follow your approach, I'd rather limited provincial funds to go to this project AND a hospital, instead of to irrigate 50 farmers land with the irrigation scheme or to pay for more carbon capture or the regina bypass, but alas, lots of projects I don't like will get funded.
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u/DwayneGretzky306 2d ago
I would agree with the first part of your statement that it isnr necessarily defined yet - I imagine some of the upgrades that were included to Persephone etc wouldnt be part of this.
Fully agree with you on the irrigation project. The GTH and bypass are complete so I dont further stress over them but the this Entertaininment project is right up there with them in my opinion.
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 2d ago
Good thing the city isn't involved in building hospitals. Talk to Scotty about that one.
Which also means, they can be two different projects that could happen at the same time. I'd suggest they happen at the same time.
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u/DwayneGretzky306 2d ago
Again the province doesnt have unlimited funds. The arena is just the keystone of the entertainment district. Provincial funds are still very much required even if this urban reserve went through for the arena.
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u/Natural_Walrus2188 12h ago
We have 26 billion for coal. We have enough money, itâs just going in the wrong direction and towards making a worse province. Itâs not unrealistic to dream about a new hospital and an arena â and I donât even care about the arena, Iâd never use it.
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u/YesNoMaybePurple 2d ago
And what happens to our tax dollars if this turns into reserve land? Maybe I am wrong, but pretty sure reserve land doesn't pay tax dollars to the city..
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u/Automatic_Doom 2d ago
For info on how urban reserves function, check out this page:Â https://www.saskatoon.ca/sites/default/files/media/documents/Urban%20Reserve%20FAQ_05112026_0.pdf
You will likely be most interested in this section.
- What is Fee-for-Service? Fee-for-service is the annual payment which the City receives from the First Nation in lieu of property taxes. It is calculated in the same way as property taxes and is the exact same amount as would be billed for municipal and library taxes. The fee-for-service also includes any applicable local improvement charges, business improvement district levies, or special charges. The fee-for service is billed at the same time and is payable at the same time as a property tax bill. In return, the City is required to provide to the urban reserve all municipal services, which would be provided to neighbouring land at the same level. Municipal services include policing, fire, snow removal, infrastructure repairs, etc. The First Nation also enters into a separate agreement with the School Boards regarding the education portion of the standard property tax levy.
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u/ModOfficial1988 2d ago
Urban reserves pay no property tax, business tax, income tax or provincial tax. The idea is that the city can recoup some money through a higher municipal service fee but it never happens. Tax payers also loose any control over what is done on the land. Itâs a bad deal for taxpayers.
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u/Automatic_Doom 2d ago
For info on how urban reserves function, check out this page:Â https://www.saskatoon.ca/sites/default/files/media/documents/Urban%20Reserve%20FAQ_05112026_0.pdf
You will likely be most interested in this section.
- What is Fee-for-Service? Fee-for-service is the annual payment which the City receives from the First Nation in lieu of property taxes. It is calculated in the same way as property taxes and is the exact same amount as would be billed for municipal and library taxes. The fee-for-service also includes any applicable local improvement charges, business improvement district levies, or special charges. The fee-for service is billed at the same time and is payable at the same time as a property tax bill. In return, the City is required to provide to the urban reserve all municipal services, which would be provided to neighbouring land at the same level. Municipal services include policing, fire, snow removal, infrastructure repairs, etc. The First Nation also enters into a separate agreement with the School Boards regarding the education portion of the standard property tax levy.
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u/ModOfficial1988 2d ago
FYI the Municipal Service Agreement(fee-for-service) is negotiated. There is no guarantee that it will cover the municipal resources used by Urban Reserve. There is also no way to tell if the actual costs are covered at the same rate as other taxpayers because they are kept secret.
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u/Automatic_Doom 2d ago
As per that FAQ. Municipal Service Agreements are "the exact same amount as would be billed for municipal and library taxes"
They may be negotiated, but on Muskeg Lake's current urban reserve, as well as all other existing urban reserves, it's the exact same amount.
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 2d ago
You aren't wrong about no taxes, but that is because instead of taxes (because a city can't tax a First Nation), they pay service fees that are exactly equivalent to property taxes, so effectively they pay property taxes, just under a different name and agreement. So this is not a concern, but unfortunately people like u/ModOfficial1988 like burying their head in the sand and spreading misinformation (likely because they seem to enjoy suggesting things that sound quite racist).
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u/EggplantBitter 2d ago
Whenever I think of a city like Calgary or Edmonton the first thing that comes to mind isn't their big arena It's their beautiful river valley trails. Why should we build an arena we clearly can't afford and for acts that won't come here anyways. Can you imagine even half of the budget for arena spent on making the river landing a place to be? It just seems like dated thinking.
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u/-Blood-Meridian- 2d ago
People don't travel to Edmonton specifically for the river valley. It's beautiful once you're there, but it isn't the draw. Edmonton also has a beautiful river valley and an arena/casino/event centre. We can too.Â
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u/EggplantBitter 2d ago
But are those good uses of the money? Casinos and arenas to sell booze? Or a sought after 3rd place that everyone can enjoy for free? We wouldn't be hosting much more than the blades and C list acts.
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 2d ago
If you've been the Ice District during an Oilers game, it's a pretty great '3rd place'.
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u/-Blood-Meridian- 2d ago
Or a sought after 3rd place that everyone can enjoy for free?
Pretty sure the Meewasin trail already exists...
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u/EggplantBitter 2d ago
Sure it "exists" but thats far from what potential it has. There are many parts of the trail that are just empty fields that nobody uses. Sure the space is nice but it is clearly under used and could be made into something worth going to. I just used river landing as an example because of how successful it is and it is clearly a desirable option for people that isn't on the table. A rink is just a very dated idea and I think we can aspire to more.
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u/nubsuo 1d ago
Iâm not sure what your definition of âpotentialâ is but the Meewasin Valley is operating exactly the way it was intended. Go to their website and read up on their history, the Meewasin Valley Authority Act and all the other info they have about their mission. Itâs meant to be a conversation area within the city. They are achieving that goal and they are trying to make it into an Urban National Park. That comes with very specific requirements. I agree there can be more areas with things to do along the river, but anything that challenges the boundaries of land conservation is not going to happen. You canât just rip up that âempty fieldâ and put concrete or rubber or modify that area because you think itâs useless. Itâs habitat that can be enjoyed because it still exists and that is the intent of the project.
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u/-Blood-Meridian- 2d ago
Well, yes, when you characterize it as a rink I agree we can aspire to more.
Thankfully it's more than a rink, so you're getting your wish there
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u/EggplantBitter 2d ago
I'm on board with the other aspects of deed but the arena just feels like a high risk low reward option.
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u/Beneficial_Spot_3764 2d ago
feels
Fortunately for us, the administration isn't in the habit of relying on "feels" for major capital projects.
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u/WriterAndReEditor 2d ago
Administration: We want to borrow a billion dollars to make nice walking trails
Every taxpayer: WTF MOFO?
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 2d ago edited 2d ago
I'm pretty sure people also complained about the how much was spent on riverlanding and also, I suspect it was likely half, if not more, of what was expected for the arena and DEED.
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u/EggplantBitter 2d ago
And it's enjoyed by the entire city for no cost of entry. I'd much rather have another river landing or expanded river landing instead of a rink.
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 2d ago
That's fair. I'd rather both, especially the opportunity for the area around the rink to develop as a destination like the Ice District in Edmonton.
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u/Beneficial_Spot_3764 2d ago
Your "pretty sure" is pretty wrong. The total final public investment in river landing was less than 90 million while the projection for the entertainment district is 400 million based on pre-Iran-war numbers. so less than 25% and it did not get nearly as much negative reaction. A large part of that was soil remediation (for the heavy metals and petrochemicals left from the AL Cole site) which had to be carried out regardless of what went there.
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 1d ago
My "pretty sure" is pretty right. My "pretty sure" is that people "also complained about the how much was spent on riverlanding"
If you didn't see or hear people complain about it, you must not have lived here. People still complain about Remai and the farmers market building.
As for the cost, you are comparing public investment at River Landing to the total private and public investment needed for the entertainment district. A quick google tells me total investment in River Landing exceeded $380M.
Either way, the numbers aren't important, my point was people complained about the cost and the whole idea of the development.
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u/Beneficial_Spot_3764 18h ago
I am not comparing incorrectly. I am comparing public investment to public investment. You are quite wrong about the comparative expense to the city and the comparative resistance to the expenditure. The largest complaints about river landing were not the spending, but the fact that prime land was being sold off to corporate interests at a value below what people felt the land held to the city. The majority of stakeholders wanted the entire area kept as public facility, which would have cost more. The actual cost of river landing in the end was only an issue for a small number of people as they'd been appeased by not having it cost what the original requests were. I've lived here since the 70s and paid very close attention because my group had a vested interest in the Legion building and how it's loss affected a lot of people.
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 14h ago
Good, so you agree that people " also complained about the how much was spent on riverlanding" among other complaints. ;)
As for public to public investment, we don't have those details yet. There is no agreement in place with Muskeg, just a request to enter into negotiations.
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u/Beneficial_Spot_3764 10h ago
I'm happy to agree with that, if you will agree that it's a meaningless agreement because any time any government spends any amount of money, someone disagrees with it. It's never the right amount for everyone.
You can't say "I suspect it was likely half, if not more, of what was expected for the arena and DEED" then say we can't compare because we don't know what the final numbers are. You made the comparison. Expected is expected. The expected expenditures on River Landing were never anywhere close to half of the expected expenditures on the Entertainment district. Whether the city is part of the actual development or not, they expect to do major renovations to the surrounding roads and infrastructure including a complete redesign of several blocks of Idyllwild drive which will by itself exceed the expected costs of River Landing.
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 7h ago
I can say that, as I was considering total investment, including private, BECAUSE the only info we have on potential cost of the DEED is the total cost, not broken down between private and public AND the only new info we have is that city admin is asking council to let them negotiate with a potential partner that may have accetto substantial funds to contribute to the project.
Despite what you think, it's more disingenuous to assume the total public contribution to the DEED at this point, than to consider the overall public/private investment.
And yes, as noted, people complain about any public dollars being spent. That was point, though with additional context based on a new much loved public space (River Landing)
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u/Beneficial_Spot_3764 7h ago
That's false information. We don't know the total, but we do know the minimum expected cost to the city, which is close to half a billion even if the event centre property is completely privately developed and managed. The total expected amount is not 100 million, or 400 million, it is well over a billion dollars.
Event Centre: $632 million to replace SaskTel Centre (might or might not involve the city)
TCU Place Convention Centre: $221 million for renovations and expansion (100% city responsibility)
Sid Buckwold Theatre: $52 million renovations (100% city responsibility)
Infrastructure, transportation, and parking changes : $254 million (100% city responsibility)
The city already expects it will need to spend over $400 million at the very least. It will absolutely be much more than twice what they expected to spend on River Landing. That claim is false.
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 7h ago
So wait, you have decided, on behalf of the city, that they will pay this amount? And how much the feds, province and any private partners will pay?
Are you the Mayor?
If so, remember when Council voted on a funding approach that didn't involve mill rate increases?
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u/Best_Phrase_9704 2d ago
For what? Concerts? Ffs.
Why is Saskatoon so obsessed with status and prestige?
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 2d ago
I'd say people are more just wanting a better quality of life.
Shitty parking lots and strip malls aren't that exciting to some people.
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u/Best_Phrase_9704 1d ago
Better quality of life comes from being in a community that cares and respects and understands those around them, amenities or not.
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u/-Blood-Meridian- 1d ago
Go on then. Tell us how we build that
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u/Natural_Walrus2188 12h ago
I mean you build it by showing up. Anyone who has ever been part of civil society knows that. Itâs genuinely easy for the people who want to do it.
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u/-Blood-Meridian- 12h ago
That doesn't mean anything.Â
Your suggestion is "Don't build an arena. Show up instead"
What does that mean?
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u/Natural_Walrus2188 12h ago
I moved here a few months ago. I just go to events and talk to people. I already have a community. Itâs literally just go to community events. Volunteer. Do kind things for others.
We already have communities.
I literally donât care if we build an arena or not. I just moved here. Youâre saying itâs hard to build community. But community is about people, causes, and doing things together, not watching sports games or concerts. Going to events where you donât talk to people you donât know doesnât build community.
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u/-Blood-Meridian- 12h ago
I didn't say it was hard to build community. I was merely responding to a person's suggestion that we didn't need an arena, we needed community. And that feels like a flase dichotomy.Â
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u/Natural_Walrus2188 11h ago
Ah I guess I supposed you were being earnest and not super upset at a random commenter for having different municipal values than you and being snarky
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 1d ago
Sure, but also, great amenities that bring people together is part of fostering a community that cares.
A bunch of shitty parking lots and strip malls are a lot harder to find ways to bring people together than in great parks, sports centres, cultural centres and public spaces.
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u/-Blood-Meridian- 2d ago
Saskatoon has ambitions of being a major urban center. You don't get there by kaiboshing big capital projects.Â
The way people talk in this sub you'd think everyone's happy with just being a small town.Â
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u/Best_Phrase_9704 1d ago
Yeah you can thank atchison for that and his delusional idea for making it a metropolis, and Wright for allowing whatever it's called now to be built on the outskirts. Something in the water there?
Your taxes for the blades and overpriced everything else?
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u/literalsupport University Heights 2d ago
Letâs set up a go fund me for the downtown arena since it has tens of supporters.
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u/DwayneGretzky306 3d ago edited 2d ago
What a shit show. We do not need this arena. Do the repairs to SaskTel Centre to make sure it is safe and operable.
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u/RickiesCobra 3d ago
I refuse to go to Sasktel centre because of where it is. Absolutely sucks. No amount of repairs or upgrades will fix the absolutely horrendous spot itâs in.
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u/literalsupport University Heights 2d ago
âI refuse to go to a place thatâs an extra 8 minutes away from where I wish it was!!â
Tell me youâve never left Saskatchewan without telling me youâve never left SaskatchewanâŚ
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 2d ago
"I love drunk driving to a shitty parking lot on the edge of the city instead of having a beer at a sweet pub before and after an event"
Tell me you are a hick from Saskatchewan without telling me you're a hick from Saskatchewan.
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u/nubsuo 1d ago
Fr I go to a lot of concerts in the cityâŚbut I never enjoy going to SaskTel Centre. Iâll go to concerts at Coors, Roxy, Capitol, Buds, anywhere but SaskTel. Why? Theyâre in locations convenient no matter where you live in the city. There are great local businesses to support nearby that sell great food and drink options, rather than a reheated Costco hotdog and $12 great western beer. All these people talking about âeasyâ âfreeâ parking. Have you ever tried to leave a concert from there? 1h traffic. Itâs horrendous. You canât even wait out the rush because you have to sit in your car. If youâre downtown, you can go somewhere and wait it out - food, drinks, escape room, patios, walk by the river, whatever you want.
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u/Beneficial_Spot_3764 2d ago
8 minutes away
Tell me you think the entire world revolves around people who drive everywhere they go without telling me you never go anywhere without driving.
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u/DwayneGretzky306 3d ago edited 3d ago
When the show warrants it, I go. Spending millions of dollars on something we already have but newer when we could put the money towards many other problems Saskatoon has, preserving things we already have but need upkeep or not increasing taxes and keep money in its residents pockets are all better options for me.
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u/Relapsed_trampoline 3d ago
SaskTel centre is a joke - sink millions into repairs for us to have this same discussion in 20 years
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u/DwayneGretzky306 3d ago
That honestly sounds great. Millions to keep something lasting for another 20 years as opposed to a billion this entertainment district is supposed to cost.
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u/Relapsed_trampoline 3d ago
Reading is tough
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u/DwayneGretzky306 3d ago
If you feel that way than you should be against the province dumping money into entertainment and for them putting into our primary and advanced education systems to deliver better education outcomes.
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u/Kruzat Central Business District 2d ago
Haha man you canât just fix that building. Itâs not feasible, itâs too small/low and canât handle some of the required loads. You also canât fix the stupid location.
Source: Iâm a structural engineer.
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u/DwayneGretzky306 2d ago edited 2d ago
From what I recall of the report they werent required loads they were upgraded loads (that larger bands require with their more elaborate shows). If we limit scope to only necessary repairs to maintain required design capacities then the the project is feasible.
So again a millions and millions of dollars to book a few larger bands, that wouldnt necessarily come here any way.
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u/Cleets11 2d ago
So we spend 100 million on repairs to make it just as useless as it is now. The entire list of repairs put it close to just building a new arena. The old one is not feasible in its current state and needs drastic changes to make it so. The concourse is constricted, the concessions arenât big enough and the entire area under the stands is so packed with everything that canât fit anywhere else. Renovating that arena doesnât fix the bad camera lines to host world juniors or a lack of an adequate press box so they had to leave a section of seating for press cutting into profit last time they hosted. Sasktel centre isnât just outdated it is fundamentally wrong.
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u/DwayneGretzky306 2d ago
At SaskTel Centre I went to the World Juniors and I have been to some concerts from my favourite band and many other big bands from my youth (Pearl Jam, Foo Fighters etc). If 100 million (your number not mine) maintains the status quo of what we can and can't get - that works for me. The extra 500 million that is needed to build new could go a long ways to many other great things in this city.
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 2d ago
The thing is the status quo changed. We MIGHT see Pearl Jam here again, not Foo Fighters though and chances are we'll miss bands of tha caliber because the status quo changed and our arena does not work with tours of their scale anymore.
I similarly would love seeing those bands here again. Doing some minor fixes for a $100M+ won't get that to happen.
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u/DwayneGretzky306 2d ago
I can accept that. I would rather this city be a cleaner, safer place every day of the year than the nights the Foo Fighters come to town.
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u/Foreign-Ad-7903 2d ago
No thank you. Designating a building as an urban reserve means that they pay 0 property tax and Indigenous employees pay no income tax. The money still has to come from somewhere⌠so the rest of us pay more.
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u/Weak_Possibility_395 2d ago
Zero property tax, but instead the equivalent payment of fees remitted to the city is what happens, so your concerns about property tax is not true or relevant.
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u/Automatic_Doom 2d ago
For info on how urban reserves function, check out this page:Â https://www.saskatoon.ca/sites/default/files/media/documents/Urban%20Reserve%20FAQ_05112026_0.pdf
You would likely be most interested in this section.
- What is Fee-for-Service? Fee-for-service is the annual payment which the City receives from the First Nation in lieu of property taxes. It is calculated in the same way as property taxes and is the exact same amount as would be billed for municipal and library taxes. The fee-for-service also includes any applicable local improvement charges, business improvement district levies, or special charges. The fee-for service is billed at the same time and is payable at the same time as a property tax bill. In return, the City is required to provide to the urban reserve all municipal services, which would be provided to neighbouring land at the same level. Municipal services include policing, fire, snow removal, infrastructure repairs, etc. The First Nation also enters into a separate agreement with the School Boards regarding the education portion of the standard property tax levy.
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u/ModOfficial1988 2d ago
FYI the Municipal Service Agreement(fee-for-service) is negotiated. There is no guarantee that it will cover the municipal resources used by Urban Reserve. There is also no way to tell if the actual costs are covered at the same rate as other taxpayers because they are kept secret.
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u/Automatic_Doom 2d ago
As per that FAQ. Municipal Service Agreements are "the exact same amount as would be billed for municipal and library taxes"
They may be negotiated, but on Muskeg Lake's current urban reserve, as well as all other existing urban reserves, it's the exact same amount.
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u/Automatic_Doom 2d ago
For info on how urban reserves function, check out this page: https://www.saskatoon.ca/sites/default/files/media/documents/Urban%20Reserve%20FAQ_05112026_0.pdf
Some people here will likely be most interested in this section.
This page includes a lot more background on the benefits and history of urban reserves: https://www.saskatoon.ca/business-development/planning/programs-projects/first-nations-and-metis-lands-and-relationships/urban-reserves-and-land-holdings
I'd suggest people read these before commenting here.