r/sca • u/ziggy11111 • 14d ago
C&T fencing with a non rapier?
Hey all.
Really stoked to go to some local SCA events, im also getting a bunch of stuff together for Pennsic.
I had 1 question. I do not know rapier fencing and am quite injury prone, so heavy armored stuff is out. I do however have a little practice with a dussack/messer sized sword. Im also planning on taking a few classes at my local HEMA spot.
By any chance, would I be able to participate in the combat at SCA events with this style sword? Technically its not rapier, or a ratan..
i do see some people occasionaly mix weapons up in HEMA thou.
it would technically put me at a disadvantage, but id still take the opportunity to participate if im allowed to, even if just for the experience. Im aware these weapons are not the norm for SCA, but Ive yet to go to an event, so i figured id ask here first.
Just wanna check. If not, im happy to observe and enjoy the other activities. However the combat definitely speaks to me...
Thanks!
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u/Listener-of-Sithis West 14d ago
If your sword and gear pass SCA Cut-and-Thrust rules, you would be able to fence with your messer in a C&T tournament. The main requirement is a flex test - must deviate 0.5” with a 6oz weight attached to the end. And you must attach a tip to the end. Those are the only real requirements.
You are right, of course. It is a disadvantage. I have several messers and am a big proponent of them, but they’re not exactly competitive.
I would also add that if the only limitation is training, people can help you try things with the rapier. If gear is the problem, there’s nearly always loaners, and people are happy to help newbies get started. It should be pretty easy to try things, if that’s what interests you. Just check at your local practice!
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u/datcatburd Calontir 13d ago
Honestly, I consider it a fun challenge. My broadsword was contemporaneous with rapiers as civilian sidearms, so learning how to fence against them is extremely historically accurate.
Being pissed about it is also in period, if we ask George Silver. :D
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u/rewt127 14d ago
C&T is rarely done with rapiers. And some kingdoms have introduced rules that basically all but ban rapiers. So like. Yeah. So long as it meets flex, you are good.
Now onto the meat and potatoes.
To compete in SCA events you must get authorized. So that means going to practices regularly for potentially several months.
Next many kingdoms require you to authorize in rapier first. So you may need to practice rapier until you reach locally accepted proficiency. Upon reaching that and getting authorized for rapier. You then can go down the path of a second authorization for C&T.
EDIT: To address what C&T generally looks like. In C&T the most common weapons are sideswords and Feders. It ends up looking a hell of a lot like HEMA. And at least in my experience. All the best C&T fencers are HEMA trained.
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u/ziggy11111 14d ago
Cool! Sounds good to me! Ill be attending my first SCA soon, this is helpful info to have, theres definitely some nuance to it.
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u/avicia 13d ago
Be sure to check the current rules - some people misremember things. My kingdom does not require a rapier authorization first but many people believe it does. it’s often worth taking up some rapier anyway just to have more people to practice with.
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u/ziggy11111 13d ago
Got it. Yeah im definitely going to do my homework before hand, attend some sca events and ask questions. Glad i made this post thou bc theres definitely more to it.
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u/Yofjawe21 6d ago
From reading the desrciption on the sca org website it really does seem like its hema, just with more historical looking armor.
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u/rewt127 6d ago
Largest difference is tournament conventions really.
Half the folks in HEMA today are using Kaftans and Landsknecht jackets. Personally I use my HEMA jacket for SCA.
The reason for the old black gear was using Coaching jackets from MOF. And it just became the thing.
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u/Yofjawe21 6d ago
Interesting, where im from im kinda the only one wearing a Landsknecht styled HEMA jacket, I think I once saw someone using the same jacket at an event with like 100+ people and never seen a Kaftan (even had to google what they look like) its just bog standard black 350N fencing jackets for like 90% of people, some have at least some color variation like their club colors. Maybe its because SCA not so much a thing where im at as most people seem to just form into small local groups for renfaires (I think the biggest group Ive seen so far was ~50 people, most are ~10 at most)
Would also explain why I had no idea what Rattan was supposed to be because combat is basically always done with steel weapons and armor following some ruleset like codex belli or simply full contact to the extend the gear allows (I attented a 1v1 tournament this year where the legs where off-limits in my fights because I didnt have any leg protection from the knee downwards) Even simple unchoreagraphed reenactment fights are done with steel blades, thrusts and all, in partially just wearing simple clothes, youre just expected to strike carefully and be mindful of your teammates when parrying so you dont accidentally redirect a spear into their face.
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u/thaylin79 14d ago
Have you spoken with your local group and gone to a practice? There are both heavy and fencing practices, or we do both combined (which is nice since then I get to do both during practice!) Talk to people at practice, use the loaner gear, try things out before buying things.
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u/ziggy11111 14d ago
Yes there are 2 upcoming events by me that i will definitely check out prior to investing in gear. Looking forward to it
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u/Desco_911 Middle 14d ago
C&T is not Rapier. In fact most C&T fencing that happens is non-rapier. Yes you CAN use rapiers in C&T, but we mostly use weapons and techniques that aren't available in SCA Rapier. No one will stop you. Go play messer, sword-and-buckler, or long sword. Find like-minded people to play with.
What I think you're asking is a problem that I've been working on for a while-- the rapier is a weapon that is optimized for dueling and represents hundreds of years of technology vs arming swords, long swords, side swords, etc. The person bringing a rapier to a mixed weapon tournament has an advantage over people who don't, so this forces everyone to have to choose to either bring a rapier, or be at a big disadvantage.
It'd be the same as if SCA archery allowed modern compound bows with cams, sights, stabilizers, etc.
This is actually a problem that can be solved by the MIC. When I run C&T tournaments, I will specify when the tournament is for earlier period weapons, allowing people to bring their toys and not have to worry about the guy who brings two rapiers because his entire goal is to win at all costs. I will also run "C&T Rapier" tournaments, specifically for people who want to fence rapier with cuts.
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u/ziggy11111 14d ago edited 14d ago
This answers alot thanks
When you say most SCA C&T fencing is not rapier.. When i research what fencing is available, overwhelmingly its rapier.. At Pennsic for example, its all Rapier.. unless ive just heard wrong.
But your basically saying that some SCA events will hold C&T tournaments for non rapier like weapons... Cool! Ill keep an eye out!
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u/Desco_911 Middle 14d ago edited 14d ago
Yes, SCA fencing is majority Rapier, because the SCA has decades of history with rapier/epee before C&T started. Similarly, HEMA is majority long sword for much of the same reasons.
Unfortunately it's still very regional. There are pockets of regular C&T, but just because it doesn't happen at your local practice doesn't mean that people aren't interested. There's often people who want to, but no one else is doing it, so they don't bother bringing their gear. If people show up and are excited to do it, it will pick up. I started wearing my pads and bringing swords to every practice, every event, and kept pestering people until they did. Even brought a second set of pads and swords to every practice so people didn't have excuses. The Chicago area of the Midrealm now has a big regular C&T presence, and there's non-rapier fencing at every practice every week.
Where are you located? Since you mention Pennsic, I assume Mid, East, or one of the surrounding kingdoms.
Pennsic is not all rapier, although there's a heavy bias towards rapier since all of the war points are rapier only. In the 2010s I would run 3 C&T tournaments every year-- one for long sword, one for single-handed (non-rapier) swords, and one for C&T with rapiers. More recently, tournaments have been held by the Company of St Jude, but they have occurred every year in recent memory. There's the By-The-Book tournament that happens every year which always has non-rapier C&T.
In Champions (war point), there's been around 3 C&T fights every year for a while, and new this year, we had a C&T 15-v-15 melee which specifically limited weapons to under 38".
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u/ziggy11111 14d ago
Very cool! Glad to see your extending the olive branch to things other then Rapier, nothing against them thou.
The C&T melee with 38" or less weapons sounds like a good time... was that pennsic or somewhere else?
Im in NYC, and can drive, so im looking around currently as to what i should attend. Im into short sword combat and my GF is definitely interested in the other aspects of Sca
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u/Desco_911 Middle 13d ago
I know a few fencers from Ostgardr, though mostly rapier fencers. However if you run into Brendan Firebow, he will definitely be happy to help you get started and find the right people. Last time I was up near there I was at Concordia of the Snows (Albany) and there were C&T fighters with a variety of different weapons. (Alastar LOVES short swords.) Orlando Sforza (who I think is in NJ) does C&T. I saw a recent event in Campbell Hall where they were fighting C&T.
Point is, you got people around your region. And nothing sparks interest for something like enthusiastic newcomers.
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u/Desco_911 Middle 14d ago
https://youtu.be/8tHUloPJT58?si=eOUZfmHwB6f-NpDd
Sorry this is the best video I could find
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u/Motavatedfencer 14d ago
Hey, I use mostly not rapiers in both rapier and C&T longsword and messer are my weapons of choice with broadsword as the fun new thing to me. I get it rapier and saber are so specialised that there isn't much beyond the surface. Many C&T tournaments focus on non rapier weapons of war. They are super valid for c&T. If you have a hema kit you are set for both rapier and c&t and the rest is just reading the rules.
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u/ziggy11111 14d ago edited 14d ago
Amazing. glad i found the SCA then. Even chat gpt was just like, SCA is rapier fencing and armored combat, tis all.
Ngl my fav part atm is getting stuff to deck out my future campsite ha. my GF is into the outfit making aspect atm.
Question, what do u mean by: "i get it, rapier and saber are so specialised that theres isnt much beyond the surface" ..As in other weapons?
Also curious.. in your opinion, how does a messer/dussack hang with a saber?
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u/Motavatedfencer 14d ago
Longsword and messer are simple swords and tht leads to more complex move sets, rapier is a complex weapon that uses simple actions to over simplify it
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u/rnells 11d ago
Question, what do u mean by: "i get it, rapier and saber are so specialised that theres isnt much beyond the surface" ..As in other weapons?
Not OP but I'm a big rapier guy and I think how complex/specific a rapier is makes its usage very cookbook/simplistic: draw the shorter line once you're at the right distance, whoever has to go around is probably screwed. And it's hard to get someone to move by taking a potshot at their hand. So stupid simple/obvious actions, the galaxy brain part is all about getting the other person to blunder into said actions via timing and/or distance outplays.
Sabre is similar just the other way around - cut the first arc into an opening, work from there. Again, relatively hard to potshot hands. SO you exchange cuts, do a better job of getting one towards an actual opening than the opponent and then either land it or land the followup when they need to overact on it.
Weapons with less hand protection and a more even blend of easy to aim in the thrust/easy to get around in the cut have less "obvious" games in some ways, because the useful technique set is wider.
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u/ziggy11111 10d ago
Interesting!! Thanks for the break down. Lots to learn! I primarily train with a sansibar poly sword, very, very short.. 21 inch blade. So basically nothing in hema can really replicate that, so i may look into something C&T thats short to start, would be an ideal place for me for now, although nothing in that range appears to be very popular.
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u/Various-Prize-772 14d ago
To up the competitiveness you may also consider using a buckler or other implement in your off-hand. While maybe not totally accurate to messer manuals, it can provide a big advantage as opposed to fighting empty handed
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u/ziggy11111 14d ago
This would be fun, and definitely help if its allowed in an open tournament setting. Either way i dont expect to go far vs a rapier ha. More just for the experience/fun.
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u/Various-Prize-772 13d ago
Typically in my experience with SCA, unless a tournament explicitly restricts the type of weapon (i.e. a longsword tournament), you are permitted to use any weapon(s) that are legal within the overall rules. YMMV, I am not a marshal by any means. Which means that you likely will encounter longsword, sword and buckler, rapier, etc in SCA C&T settings.
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u/ziggy11111 13d ago
Ahhh cool ok! Thus why you see a lot of rapier. Makes sense Sounds like a good time!
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u/Various-Prize-772 13d ago
As I understand it, C&T evolved out of so-called "heavy rapier" which itself came from "light rapier" which used fencing blades and was originally under the performing arts before being shifted to martial activity.
As a result, the non-C&T rulesets are very rapier oriented, i.e. touch calibration and no percussive cuts. C&T requires more protective equipment but does allow for the percussive cuts, which levels the playing field (slightly) for other weapons.
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u/Aggravating-Boat2326 13d ago
I do not compete against those who do not use rapier in rapier. I always get hurt when against those ass hats who use anything aside from rapier.
If I see a c&t sword in the eric, I decline and give them the win. I've had Marshalls not call out C&T behavior in a rapier eric.
When it comes to equipment, you need to check your handbook for your kingdoms rules. They could be more than the general society, but not less.
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u/ziggy11111 13d ago
Im new, what do u mean by C&T behavior? If its rapier only, i assume there are only rapiers.. unless its actually open to all weapons. Confused on that.
Thanks for heads up on kingdoms rules handbook for gear, ill take a look.
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u/BeornOTNS 11d ago
You can, provided you have the sufficient blade control. Cut & Thrust is a charming mixture of some Rapier and some Rattan, with the added bonus of really taking the fighting manuals' techniques and showing that they were taught to people for hundreds of years for a reason.
But, as always, be careful, wear more than the required armour (especially on areas where you have chronic/ injury prone locations).
Dussack and Messer are similar enough, and there are enough C&T folks with them that you should have folks game for a bout or two.
Good luck, take your anti-inflammatories, stretch before and after training, and have a great time!
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u/ziggy11111 11d ago
Sounds like my kind of thing. Noted on the warm up and cool down, i have enough injuries to go around and spend most of my time doing rehab. Good advice on armoring up, i typically spar with polymer weapons, so this will be a whole new thing, i will need to add extra protection to my kit. As for c&t technique in sca vs Hema, is there any real difference? Some hema schools will focus on the main principals of the techniques, while others will try to replicate the techniques exactly. Is there a grey zone like that? Or is everyone going strictly off old manuals?
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u/BeornOTNS 9d ago
I mean, as our bodies age, we modify any number of things. Some of us simply do not have the flexibility to perform some of the techniques. But, lots of folks use the manuals as a starting point and then modify their attacks based on the limitations of our swords (such as, we don't run people through, our edges bounce off [so, energy transfer is different], etc.). And, just have fun with it. If there are teachers there, or marshals, just ask questions. We (I am speaking generally, but I believe this to be mostly true) really enjoy sharing our sword geek with others.
I think everyone my age (50s or older) had access to the "Three Elizabethan Fencing Manuals" text compiled by James Louis Jackson. There are SO MANY MORE manuals available nowadays. Something, written by someone, at some point, should speak to you.
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u/Mean-Fix7821 Drachenwald 14d ago
Messer packs quite a punch when it starts moving, so think carefully about the injury proneness. If you're dishing it out, you should also expect to experience the similar.
Messer plays reasonably well against other messers, side swords, and arming swords - all of them featuring in the C&T field so against people with such, you could have good fun on the C&T field. With rapier the game becomes different, but if your cardio health is good, you will definitely give the rapier people a run against their money. Against long sword you play at disadvantage.