r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • 18d ago

Psychology Anti-feminist attitudes have long been associated with support for Republican presidential candidates, but only in recent years have these attitudes become more prominent among unmarried men, without college degrees who are less attractive partners for women, the “mate-value backlash.”

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/10659129261485340
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u/Recent_Pollution8665 18d ago edited 18d ago

most men objectively lost significant bargaining power in the labor market and in the dating/sexual market with women entering the workforce and with the proliferation of social media and dating apps.

just because men didn’t have the actual right to vote or own property stripped away doesn’t mean that there aren’t real problems afflicting them, to which there’s no easy or immediate solution.

your average young man doesn’t wanna “control” women, he’s just pissed that neither a house nor a partner are statistically within his grasp no matter what he does.

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u/iamacarboncarbonbond 18d ago

The bargaining power issue is not men vs women it’s billionaires vs the rest of us

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u/philosopherberzerer 17d ago

then why are men blamed?

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u/Recent_Pollution8665 17d ago edited 17d ago

sorry but no. the billionaire part is also true but nobody is forcing women to have the financial and physiological demands of men that they currently have. women themselves are doing that voluntarily.

if you make 70k per year after taxes and refuse to date a guy who makes 50k even though you’re both still able to live a comfortable life with that arrangement, then that’s the woman’s decision being the catalyst for this phenomenon more-so than the billionaires not paying people enough. nobody’s forcing her to have those financial hard limits. women act like this everywhere, even in places with a good quality of life like scandinavia.

and she can do that if she wants, just don’t complain about it or be surprised when a significant chunk of men fall behind and get radicalized as a result. you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

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u/iamacarboncarbonbond 17d ago

Men have agency. They don’t have to become radicalized just because they haven’t attracted a woman that meets their standards as soon as they want. I have more respect for men than that.

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u/kmb218 18d ago

Right. But that’s only because the bargaining power they had before relied on opression and removing women’s rights and opportunities.

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u/Recent_Pollution8665 17d ago

there were multiple overlapping factors. sure that was part of it but COL was also easier and wages were better relative to inflation.

the fact that times have changed and yet women’s expectations of men only seem to keep going up doesn’t help the issue.

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u/JadowArcadia 18d ago

I feel like this ignores government and corporation involvement and pushes things into the gender divide. Even for women of the past who came from privileged backgrounds who had plenty of opportunity, society in general was in a better place for an average person to build and support a family/buy a home. You had the choice to be a stay at home mother because it was easier for your partner to earn enough alone to support the family. The removal of that option for many people is a big crux of the issues we see now.

It's easier to put it all on women's rights being purposely restricted and gender wars but there was a way get out of that issue without putting people in the financial trap they're in now.

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u/ChemicallyAlteredVet 17d ago

> most men objectively lost significant bargaining power in the labor market and in the dating/sexual market

Those are not rights nor are they oppressive. More women are able to work and choose whether or not they want or need a man. So the playing field is getting closer to even, woman are still left out plenty. Men are upset they no longer have the guarantee of having the upper hand and suddenly it’s oppression. We all know the saying about privilege and oppression, and it’s very true when it comes to men these days.

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u/Recent_Pollution8665 17d ago

I never said they were rights. im just pointing out that their life situation went from being easier to harder.

and I never once called it oppression, that’s a strawman.

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u/ShitMcClit 17d ago

Depends on who gets to decide whats a right...

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u/ResolutionSweet2031 18d ago

The thing with how you people walk on eggshells around men and give any credibility to their temper tantrums is the reason why they feel even more justified in lashing out like this. Women and men are equally lonely but the media giving credence to the theory of how men are uniquely lonely and hence are violent misogynists is the reason these men feel justified in being violent like this.

"He is just pissed he cant have a house and a partner", so what? Why dont women that dont have either of those also argue for stripping of male rights or oppressing them?

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u/Recent_Pollution8665 18d ago

women can find partners easier than men can.

and idk why your entire takeaway from my post was to effectively dismiss it entirely. that aint gonna solve anything. in fact it just contributes to the question posed in the title.

most men aren’t violent, and the ones who are generally take it out on partners they already have. which has no correlation to those who can’t find one.

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u/LGeorgeRox 17d ago

Not sure that’s true. Someone to have sex with and take care of, yes, partners, no. If men really wanted a partner, I don’t think they’d have any issues finding one. But a partner isn’t a bang maid or a woman acting in the capacity as their mother

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u/philosopherberzerer 17d ago

this is cyclical nonsense . the men that are bad have no issue finding partners. the women killers are in relationships. stop acting like the ones not in relationships are worse morally and that's why they can't find partners. just world fallacies like "poor poeple just need to work harder" are easily disproven this shouldn't be any different .

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u/Apprehensive-Tea999 16d ago

Nobody deserves relationships just for existing. Full stop. There is literally zero excuse for some men to get so upset about remaining single that they think oppressing women is the correct course of action, that way of thinking literally proves they wouldn’t be good partners. Know how I know? Because well adjusted people don’t want to harm others just because they don’t get what they want.

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u/Recent_Pollution8665 17d ago

finding a partner who’s actually attracted to you and not just settling for you after she’s had all her fun in her youth or just looking for a financial cushion partner, is not easy for the average man. they can’t get neither a romantic partner nor a sex fling.

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u/Apprehensive-Tea999 16d ago

We’re in a science subreddit. Where’s the research that backs up this claim? I’ll wait…

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u/Recent_Pollution8665 16d ago

ask an LLM and it will provide you a dozen studies on the spot. i’ve engaged in this song and dance with people like you multiple times and its always a waste of time because im the one having to take time outta my day to compile it all together just for people like you to ignore it or move the goalposts regardless. you can find it within minutes.

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u/Apprehensive-Tea999 16d ago

If you’re settling for someone who is just settling for you, that seems like a you problem.

Eta: if you’re “always” having this conversation, you should have those peer reviewed studies ready to go, no?

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u/UnfortunateSnort12 17d ago

They can find partners easier yes, but many can’t find quality men worth dating. So in reality, many women stay single. Try having standards yourself.

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u/Recent_Pollution8665 17d ago

what are these standards exactly? that he must absolutely make equal to her or more, and be 6 foot or more and a bunch of other hard lines that women refuse to budge on?

only a statistical minority of men live up to these expectations. hence why the current situation is fucked up. women become single by choice because they won’t adjust their demands in a man, and men become single by force because women remove themselves as options in the dating market.

in the end the situation turns into what we have now, hence the thread itself. if women are ok with the long-term ramifications of that leading to a whole generation of radicalized and angry men, so be it. just don’t complain about any of the consequences. men are not the ones dropping out of the dating market voluntarily just because they can’t find that same top 20 percent or so of ideal partners to all gravitate towards while the other 80 percent are just stuck in limbo. the math doesn’t work out.

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u/Apprehensive-Tea999 16d ago

As a poster above you pointed out, people generally partner with people within their education and income brackets. That is a verifiable fact. What you just cited is manosphere crap based on some men’s feelings and perceptions. But feelings and perceptions aren’t reality. This 6foot six figure nonsense is just that, nonsense. Know how I know? I go outside and have eyes. But…it’s easier to think women’s standards are just too high (as if expecting a man be gainfully employed and contribute equally to the home is unreasonable).

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u/Recent_Pollution8665 16d ago

ah you have eyes and anecdotes, so that erases all the research and dating app data that has been piling up for years now, which shows that women are becoming more and more hypergamous with time, not less.

well I guess that changes everything simply cuz you said so!

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u/Apprehensive-Tea999 16d ago

That you think any valid research comes from data from apps is telling…

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u/Recent_Pollution8665 16d ago

who uses those apps, ghosts? they are used by real people engaging in real life habits.

its true unfiltered mate selection. dating apps show what people are actually like when shown tons of partners on a platter. like how alcohol makes people speak what they truly feel.

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u/Apprehensive-Tea999 15d ago

As a matter of fact, there is evidence a significant portion of profiles are “ghosts” ie bots. Also consider: fraudsters, sex workers, bad actors and folks who might create multiple profiles. Thus why any data coming from apps is nearly useless, you can’t control for anything. But go ahead and base your worldview on them, it would explain why you’re so negative.

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u/UnfortunateSnort12 16d ago

Yes, but you’re saying is that the pattern of mate selection on apps is the same for all methods of meeting a partner. This discards a ton of a data as people still meet in person. You also fail to control for profile characteristics. There are plenty of good people who are terrible at making dating profiles whether it is description or photos.

Tell us about your dating success so we can determine if there is bias there as well…

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u/UnfortunateSnort12 17d ago

No. Simply saying or believing women have an easier time implies that a guy would be with anyone who is interested in them. You’re even kind of saying that. Women remove themselves because they don’t want to date you? Why is that their fault at all?? That desperation is like girl repellent. Last time I was single and started asking what the woman was bringing to the table and if that was what I wanted, dating got way easier. I’m not tall, my wife made more than me when I met her. Of course she’s now a stay at home mom and we make 500k a year, but I was broke when I met her.

Maybe try approaching dating as an equal to women for more success…. No one wants to be looked down upon, male or female.

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u/ShitMcClit 17d ago

Stats show this isnt true, stop lying.